Poll

Which would you rather be?

Channeler
41 (48.2%)
Mistborn
25 (29.4%)
Keeper
10 (11.8%)
Wolfbrother
4 (4.7%)
Inquisitor
4 (4.7%)
Gray Man
0 (0%)
Gholam
1 (1.2%)
Fade
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 85

Author Topic: Wheel v. Mist  (Read 17355 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2008, 10:14:44 PM »
Obviously, this question will have to be explored further via fanfiction.
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Czanos

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2008, 11:34:44 PM »
Here's another thought. While the weaves a channeler spins may be invisible, the actual effects they have are not, most of the time. Things like walls of fire and balefire are objects, so they would shoot off an atium shadow. I think this would give the Mistborn another advantage, as they could tell what weaves were being used against them by the atium shadows of their effect coming into existance. I mean, an atium shadow shows what will happen in the future, so if an object comes into existence I assume it's atium shadow would show it doing so before it materialized. This would negate the advantage a channeler has with physical weaves, and leaves them with the best weapons of compulsion and invisible air. (As some air weaves can be seen, such as when Siuan made the bluish-green sword of air on the boat to Tar Valon.) This fact, combined with the hand gestures and electrum shadows gives the Mistborn a fighting chance against most channelers.

The thing I can't find a way around is complusion. However, luckily for the Mistborn, there are only a few channelers who know the weave. Among regular Aes Sedai and Asha'man compulsion is not something to worry about.

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Andrew the Great

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2008, 01:15:56 AM »
How about a knife made of air? How do you avoid something you don't see?
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2008, 02:24:30 AM »
If you see your electrum shadow sliced apart by an invisible blade, you avoid the spot you saw the blade strike. Difficult, but not impossible.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2008, 07:21:44 AM »
That seems like a maneuver you'd have to practice, and something tells me you only get one shot.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2008, 04:13:56 PM »
I think Mistborn would definitely win in a fight. At least against an Aes Sedai, maybe not an independent channeler (It's too confusing for me to figure out that one)
And like you said it's all about the element of surprise. An Aes Sedai cannot use the One Power to attack anyone until they attack them first. So theoretically, if the Mistborn sneaks up on an Aes Sedai and uses a duralumin-enhanced steel push to shoot a chunk of medal THROUGH an Aes Sedai... I think we know who wins.
(FYI, I'm still on Fires of Heaven for WoT, so if the Aes Sedai oaths have changed I wouldn't know.)
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2008, 07:00:48 PM »
The oaths haven't changed, but male channelers aren't bound by the oaths, and not all female channelers are Aes Sedai. We just use the term as a generalization. I agree if a mistborn could get an attack off without the channeler knowing, they would win, but I don't see any way they could win in an open battle.

Ookla, that's a good thought, but I don't go for it until I know exactly how electrum works (which may be never, depending on MB3). AvalonDreamer pretty much said it all.
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Isabel

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2008, 08:18:56 AM »
Quote
I think Mistborn would definitely win in a fight. At least against an Aes Sedai, maybe not an independent channeler (It's too confusing for me to figure out that one)
And like you said it's all about the element of surprise. An Aes Sedai cannot use the One Power to attack anyone until they attack them first. So theoretically, if the Mistborn sneaks up on an Aes Sedai and uses a duralumin-enhanced steel push to shoot a chunk of medal THROUGH an Aes Sedai... I think we know who wins.
(FYI, I'm still on Fires of Heaven for WoT, so if the Aes Sedai oaths have changed I wouldn't know.)

Attacking someone and using the one power is completely different. An Aes sedai if she spots trouble can easily put everyone in weaves of air, so those people cannot move.  That is not an attack.  (ofcourse it depends on the aes sedai)
Ofcourse Aes sedai and even Asha'man can be killed by surprise, but they both now have Warders or someone they are bonded too. If they are attacked they would also defend the channeler.

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2008, 07:47:27 PM »
It might not be as hard to practice using your electrum shadow to dodge things as you might think. The trick is to get a situation where electrum is the only tool you have. Such as maybe having a mistborn shoot coins at you at night, or having a squad of archers fire blunt arrows at you. It's true it would take some getting used to, but I don't think it'd be that hard to get used to it. Especially not for somone burning atium.

As for warders, the regular kind would be no threat, as the atium we're burning gives the Mistborn any number of ways to take them down. As for Asha'man with Red's for warders, if the Mistborn doesn't have surprise or terrain on their side, probably best to just run until they do. Even odds are hard enough.
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Velinion

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2008, 12:33:49 AM »
I think I'd choose a Mistborn. I just think it would be more fun.

As for the Mistborn Vs. Channeler debate:
1) Assassination. Mistborn would be perfect assassins, as they could simply approach the channeler, soothing away suspicion in both the channeler and any warder, and stab the channeler.
2) Battle. At least at first, I would give the edge to the Mistborn. An Aes Sedai would have trouble channeling after a Mistborn ripped her finger off with a Steel Push (thanks to the Serpent Ring) and rioted emotions like pain, uncertainty and fear.
Similarly, the Asha-Man could easily find their pins (sword and dragon) driven through their chests.
These attacks would even work if the Mistborn was trapped in Air.

If it became a long lasting group vs. group conflict, and channelers learned to avoid wearing metal, things would balance or even tip in their favor, but as things stand now, the Mistborn would win. You can't sever the flows of a steel-push.

EDIT: Additionally thought I'd point out that it's stated in the WOT books that you can't channel if you are experiencing strong emotions. You just aren't calm enough to embrace the true source. (I believe Siune mentions this when she says she wishes she could raise Nynaeve to Aes Sedia), which is why they are taught to keep their emotions under control. A duralumin riot of emotions should break through their self-control. Even though they would know they were being manipulated, they would be far to angry/sad/happy/fearful/etc. to do anything about it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 12:44:52 AM by Velinion »

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2008, 03:01:04 AM »
Again and again, and again, I have seen the Asha'man channel, and channel very well while they were angry, so the soothing effect would not work as well as you might think. Also, since Aes Sedai and Asha'am do indeed know how to controle their emotions, I doubt very much so that a Mistborn could soothe or riot a channeler's emotions without the channeler knowing that their emotions are being manipulated.
Granted, a mistborn could have the opportunity to sneak up and kill an Aes Sedai or an Asha'man before they knew what hit them. However, by the same token, since a Mistborn or any other non-channeler cannot see saidin or saidar, they would also have no clue at all if a channel using the One Power decided to do a sneak attack upon the Mistborn until it was far too late to react to balefire, a fireball, lightining strikes, etc, etc etc.
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Velinion

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2008, 05:49:02 AM »
Again and again, and again, I have seen the Asha'man channel, and channel very well while they were angry, so the soothing effect would not work as well as you might think. Also, since Aes Sedai and Asha'am do indeed know how to controle their emotions, I doubt very much so that a Mistborn could soothe or riot a channeler's emotions without the channeler knowing that their emotions are being manipulated.

Oh, I'm sure they would know they were being manipulated, the question is would they be able to do anything about it. When you control your own emotions, you are choosing to suppress them. Could an Aes Sedai or Asha-Man suppress their own emotions faster than a duralumin fueled riot of said emotions? I think not. 

You could also see it as: The channeler in question may be able to supress their emotions, but as soon as they are being rioted, the Mistborn is actually the one controlling their emotions.

It is true that Rand has channeled when angry, so maybe what Siune said about needing to be calm only applies to women channeling?

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2008, 10:04:07 PM »
To channel saidar, you have to open yourself up to the power. To channel saidin, you have to wrest control of it. They're pretty much opposites.
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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2008, 10:53:33 PM »
Ookla's right, Saidar required serenity (though not absolute, as we've seen. Nynaeve, the forsaken and a few others channel while being emotional.), but Saidin required aggression and a will to live, which implies that there are emotions involved. I'd more than wager that a simple adaptation of the spirit weave to ward off people affecting your dreams (which had been theorized to thwart compulsion as well) would completely freeze out emotional allomancy - though sticking to purely canon material, rioting a channeler is a perfectly valid strategy.
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Czanos

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Re: Wheel v. Mist
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2008, 11:02:30 PM »
Weaves that ward of dreams and theoretically compulsion only prevent the One Power from affecting your emotions, not something like a persuasive car salesman or the like. I doubt if the One Power could prevent emotional Allomancy without a weave that completely sealed off your brain to outside input.

As for Saidin/Saidar, a Mistborn would just have to to Soothe male channelers and Riot female ones. Make the men more likely to give up for a second, and the women more likely to try controlling.
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