Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 97619 times)

Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2008, 03:08:03 AM »
I am new here, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Hemalurgy was an interesting subject to me the second I saw the word in Brandon's annotations. I immediately started to formulate as many ideas as I could on the subject. Below is my best theory on what it is and how it works.

We know that all hemalurgists have metal in some way piercing their bodies. This metal seems to be directly related to their ability to use hemalurgy. So, I would like to start by mentioning the Inquisitors. Their hemalurgical powers are a result of their spikes, and they may very well be their only powers. I have never bought that inquisitors suddenly became full mistborn, as there doesn't seem to be too much of that metal Elend got. This quote from MB1 annotations about did it for me.

Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .
Emphasis Mine.

This refers to Marsh's trying to kill the Lord Ruler by pulling out his lynch pin spike. The only problem is that the Lord Ruler doesn't have a spike. However, Brandon doesn't say this as, "The Lord Ruler doesn't have a spike to kill him with." No, instead, it is that "the Lord Ruler's power doesn't only from hemalurgy," and the instant implication there for me was, "As the Inquisitors' power does." This is by no means verified or supported, but that was the implication that I caught. This led me to assume that the Inquisitors die when their lynch pin spike is pulled as a direct result of their only ability being hemalurgy, which keeps them alive. More on this later.

Anyway, the Inquisitors. They are created through hemalurgy, as supported by the MB1 annotations, Chapter 38 part 2.

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Making Inquisitors via Hemalurgy requires killing other people (see book three for an explanation of the process) so there's a lot of mess involved.

Emphasis mine. Anyway, we see more about the actual process of creating an Inquisitor in MB2, Chapter 12. This is where Sazed and Marsh have just entered the Convectical of Seran, and Sazed is looking around. He stumbles upon a particular room and says:

Quote
There is....something different here in this last room, at the back of the main landing. I'm not certain what to make of it. A torture chamber, perhaps? there are tables - metal tables - set into the floor. they are bloody, though there are no corpses. Blood flakes and powders at my feet - a lot of men have died in this room, I think. There don't appear to be torture implements beyond...
Spikes. like the ones in inquisitor eyes. Massive, heavy things - like the spikes one might pound into the ground with a very large mallet. Some are tipped with blood, though I don't think I'll handle those. These other ones...yes, they look indistinguishable from the ones in Marsh's eyes. Yet, some are of different metals.

Once again, emphasis mine. Anyway, I wanted to point out here that the spikes are already tipped in blood, and that some of the spikes are made of different metals, though we do not know for sure how many or which ones. So, with no further ado, on to the full body of the theory!

Hemalurgy is fueled by the body's own blood. Specifically, by the metals in one's blood. Each metal provides a hemalurgical power that is somewhat related to those produced by allomancy and feruchemy, but not exactly the same. For instance, in feruchemy, gold stores health. A hemalurgist is able to "burn" blood with high gold levels in it in order to heal quickly. Thus, the inquisitors incredible healing powers. This also explains why the inquisitors need to rest often, as well as why they never "go blind." If blood were your source of power, you would've needed to rest long before you ever became unable to see.

But how does the metal get into the blood? The spikes do it. Each spike is placed somewhere near where blood is produced, causing the blood to naturally pick up metal from the spike. The more metal in the blood, the more powerful your hemalurgy is, but also the more powerful Ruin's influence on you. This is why Inquisitors seem to be so strong in Allomancy, as well as the reason they are almost completely under Ruin's control now (or at least, that's what I assumed).  In this way, you could also control how much of each metal you got. If you placed a steel spike somewhere where more blood is produced, then you would have more "steel blood."

Now, I mentioned earlier that I thought the Inquisitor's only power was hemalurgy. Some, like Marsh, would have been mistings, but I don't think that this is a requirement. It's just a nice addition to hemalurgy. It could be that all inquisitors are Seekers, and that bronze in hemalurgy pierces copperclouds, allowing a seeker to find an allomancer. I think that it is more likely, however, that inquisitors can only pierce copperclouds at close ranges due to their relatively large amount of power from hemalurgy. Otherwise, every non-noble allomancer in the city would have been caught in a matter of days.

But I'm getting a bit off track. The idea that an Inquisitor's power is hemalurgy only, and not allomancy, came to me while I was reading. I noticed how often it was mentioned that the Inquisitors were powerful allomancers, and i thought, "what if they don't actually use allomancy? Wouldn't that be SO cool! (Not to mention a great way to mislead us fans...)" So I started thinking it through. In order for this to work, hemalurgical powers would have to be fairly similar to allomancy. For instance, Inquisitors would have to be able to push and pull metals. They would also have to either be naturally very strong, or increase their strength through magic. But some of the metals would be relatively useless. For instance, malatium would be completely useless to an inquisitor (they wouldn't need to see other's pasts). So I decided an inquisitor would need Steel, Iron, Bronze, Zinc, Brass, Gold, Atium, and pewter. They would do the following for them when present in their blood in a relatively high concentration:

Steel: Allows an Inquisitor to push on metal sources nearby. Because Inquisitors can see metal inside other's bodies, I decided they would need a relatively high steel concentration in their blood (I relate power directly to concentration of metal in the blood), and thus assigned them two spikes made of steel.

Iron: Allows them to pull on nearby sources of metal. They would have two spikes for iron as well, for the same reasons as steel.

Bronze: Allows them to sense allomancy, piercing copperclouds at close range. (NOTE: Inquisitors do not need copper if they are not using allomancy. Plus, it wouldn't matter as everyone just assumes that inquisitors can use allomancy)

Zinc: Going with either feruchemial or allomantic power, it either lets them Riot emotions or lets them speed their own minds up. Possibly both. I haven't really decided yet.

Brass: Soothes emotions. I don't think inquisitors need to be able to burn brass to keep themselves warm (brass feruchemial property)

Gold: This one I chose for its feruchemial property, storing health. I thought that if an inquisitor were to burn "gold blood," then they could heal themselves relatively quickly. This could also be how they keep themselves alive, constantly burning gold at low levels. I assigned them two spikes of gold for this reason.

Atium: I honestly don't know what it would do for them, but we know that they can produce a similar effect from when Kelsier and Vin infiltrate Kredik Shaw in book one.

Pewter: Kelsier describes the Inquisitor he fights as being inhumanly strong. Also used to describe allomancers burning pewter.

That's 8 metals, 3 with 2 spikes, or 11 spikes total. Inquisitors wouldn't need aluminum (that would kind of defeat the purpose) or duralumin. They can already burn large bursts of blood at a time.

In MB2, Zane states that when he cuts himself, God's voice is easier to ignore. This is because at that point, the amount of metal in his body drops as he loses blood with metal in it, and Ruin cannot influence him as much.

I think that that's pretty much it. I may have forgotten something, but please tear it apart. I love a good discussion. As always, evidence for or against from the books is appreciated.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I think that the blood sacrifice is what allows someone to use a piece of metal for hemalurgy in the first place. I guess that would be somewhat important to mention.... ;D

2nd edit: I just did a word count....1500. Not bad for a first post....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 08:14:54 PM by Andrew the Great »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2008, 05:29:03 AM »
Wow. I'm amazed. That theory is spectacular. I will immediately say that this one is far more advanced than mine (which is on Page 7, if you'd like to take a look). You successfully integrated blood into the equation, and more than anything, you successfully explained why there are eleven spikes on an Inquisitor! Truly superb, and far beyond whatever my theory was doing. This is undoubtedly the best Hemalurgy theory we have on the board. You deserve a medal, man.

First, I will go through with what is good about the theory before any criticism, by analyzing your quotes and references. Which are very excellent, I may add.

Quote
This led me to assume that the Inquisitors die when their lynch pin spike is pulled as a direct result of their only ability being hemalurgy, which keeps them alive.

Well, naturally, giant spikes tend to not be very healthy for the body. Hemalurgy would definitely need to be used to keep them alive. I've kind of waffled between whether Inquisitors are actually Mistborn or not. Sometimes I've thought their power came from the metal Elend ate, but after I made my Hemalurgy theory, I don't really like that idea. So, I agree with you that Hemalurgy is the Inquisitors' power (but not exclusive power. I'll get to Allomancy-Hemalurgy mixing later, which is probably why the Ministry liked to recruit Mistings for Inquisitors).

Quote
Spikes. like the ones in inquisitor eyes. Massive, heavy things - like the spikes one might pound into the ground with a bery large mallet. Some are tipped with blood, though I don't think I'll handle those. These other ones...yes, they look indistinguishable from the ones in Marsh's eyes. Yet, some are of different metals.

Aha! This is the first evidence--I've seen at least--that there were other metals. It's always been assumed, but this gives credence to that conclusion. Excellent find!

I won't quote the body of your theory, I like that too much, and it would take too long to pick apart anyways.

Now to criticism mode. There isn't much to point a finger at with your theory. However, I don't think that your metal descriptions for Hemalurgy is the final thing. There's plenty of evidence that shows Inquisitors' "Allomancy" is more acute, let's say. For example, in the section of MB1 where we get Kar's viewpoint, he can see much more metal than a mere Allomancer can. It's not really a fault, though, but it's something that I'd point out.

Bronze deserves a discussion, though. I agree with your point that there would have to be a limit to the coppercloud piercing. However, it is natural that we must, in light of that point, talk about Vin and Alendi. Vin has a bronze earring, which is commonly thought around here is Hemalurgical in nature--the blood sacrifice being Vin's sister by her mother. This is how Vin can pierce copperclouds. She appears to be able to do this for considerable distances (in MB2 there is a point where she uses the ability to find Zane, and that was fairly far, I think), but that could be simply because Vin is burning bronze with Allomancy, and the Hemalurgy being an unknown side-effect.

But then there is the Well of Ascension. It is mentioned in a logbook epigraph that Alendi wears "the piercings of the Hero". So, we conclude this is also Hemalurgy (despite no evidence for a blood sacrifice). Because Vin and Alendi both have piercings and they both heard the Well's thumping, we conclude that it is a Hemalurgical ability. The most important thing to know about this is Alendi was not Allomancer and not a Feruchemist, so his powers would come from Hemalurgy only--essentially the same Hemalurgy as an Inquisitor. So, if the Well is far away, how can they sense it?

Moving on. Despite your superb explanation, I can't help but think it is... too similar to Allomancy. Brandon's annotations suggest it is a third magic system, and I just believe our theories make it seem too Allomantic. Of course, all indications are that Hemalurgy is quite similar to Allomancy, so it is probable we aren't wrong in that respect. But, there is probably something missing that we just haven't stepped on yet.

The thing your theory fails to elaborate on is why Hemalurgy pushes back the mists. Also, it does not exactly say why a blood sacrifice is needed for a Hemalurgical-powered metal in the first place. My theory doesn't explain either of those, so don't feel bad. It's something to think about, though.

However, my theory differs from yours on the point of sleeping. Kar's viewpoint does say Inquisitors sleep a lot.

Quote
Kar's smiled widened, despite his fatigue.

He had been awake too long. Living as an Inquisitor drained the body, and he had to rest often. His brethren were already shuffling from the room, heading toward their rest chambers, which lay intentionally close to the throne room. They would sleep immediately; with the executions earlier in the day and the excitement of the night, they would be extremely fatigued.

If, as you say, Hemalurgy merely burns the metals inside of your bloodstream, that should not really fatigue you. Allomancers can burn metals all day long if they felt like it, and your definition of how Hemalurgy operates seems like Inquisitors could do the same, as long as they have enough metals burn.

In your theory, I think you could say that Inquisitors would always need to keep gold in the bloodstream simply to stay alive. Sleeping, then, would recharge the gold reserve. But I don't see why having less metal in the blood translates directly to fatigue.

My definition of Hemalurgy was that it sort of burned the body's energy, much like Allomancy burns the metal's energy. The body, then, would be fatigued because you suddenly have less energy to go upon. And since Inquisitors would be using Hemalurgy continuously, that would mean continuous fatigue, and would require much sleep to recharge.

I'll have to spend some time trying to merge the two theories together, because I think yours is better in almost all regards.

Before I end, I'd like to say that Inquisitors are probably Mistings, at least. This would allow them to use both Allomancy and Hemalurgy, increasing their power much like the Lord Ruler could by mixing Allomancy and Feruchemy. If they were Mistings, then this would give an Inquisitor a metal where they are very good with.

In Marsh's case, he could pierce copperclouds as good or better than Vin, which makes him very formidable. I'll have to check references to see if he actually does that, but my feeling is he would.

So, all in all, superb theory!
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Comatose

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2008, 05:43:05 AM »
That's a good theory, I like it.  And chaos, at the end of book one, it does confirm that marsh can pierce copper clouds.  I think the inquisitors all have to be seekers, it just makes sense to me, and I like the way you incorporated the abilities from both allomancy and feruchemy, that's good, but I was thinking there are probably also some other abilities that can only be gained with hemalurgy, like allomancy and feruchemy, the two give similar abilities, but not exactly the same.  The inquisitors also live for an extremely long time, maybe that's one of the reason's they need atium.  I'm still thinking about this theory, but wow, I'm really impressed, I think my own theory is kind of trash, but I still think there's something significant about the Skaa, or why would the lord ruler take interbreeding so seriously, and the excuse if he didn't wasnt them having allomancy just isn't good enough for me, The lord ruler was practical, and I don't think he would allow one of his favorite servants, tevidan, to be murdered unless it was a very big deal to him, but I also don't know how to incorporate that into this new theory which I like very much.

Good job!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 05:45:21 AM by Comatose »
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Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2008, 06:02:24 AM »
I'll clarify a bit to try to help you with a few of your questions. Also, thank you for your questions, you made me think about several points I hadn't before.

The main idea is that hemalurgy burns the blood, and that the higher the metal concentration in the blood, the greater the power it supplies. In doing this, however, the blood is actually used up in the same way an allomancer's metal is. The blood is gone, and the hemalurgist has to make more to make up for it. This was how I explained the Inquisitor's sleeping, figuring that they would need to regenerate their blood supply. However, after reading Kar's viewpoint from that chapter, you're right. The use of the word fatigued is what causes the problem. The blood loss would make you need rest, yes, but not necessarily make you feel fatigued. I'm not really sure what to say about that. Hmmm...

I did not by any means intend to give the impression that my metal descriptions were a final thing. They were just what I had come up with after a little bit of analysis.

As for the blood sacrifices, I thought that they were what actually give the metals their hemalurgical properties. They change the metal somehow, so it can be used for hemalurgy. Otherwise it would just be someone sticking metal in themselves. This would also explain why allomancers aren't hemalurgists naturally.

I was also recently thinking about the Lord Ruler's statement where he talks about Inquisitors being difficult to replace. I thought that maybe this had something to do with the procedure for putting the spikes in rather than who had to be sacrificed. In order for an Inquisitor to have 11 spikes in their body, placed just right to provide the correct amount of power (and without killing them in the process, i might add) would probably take a monumental amount of effort. Thus I think that the sacrifices need not have any significance, it is just the cost that gives the metal its hemalurgical properties.

As to why it does this, I honestly have no idea. A new problem to start working on, along with why it pushes back the mists.

Comatose, the only problem I have with your theory is that there seems to be no indication that the skaa and the nobility are not the same race except that nobles have allomancy and skaa do not, which is a direct result of controlled breeding. The skaa not having allomancy has always been a valid reason for me. Think about it, most of them don't even believe in mistings/mistborn. If you get enough people to start believing such a thing, they may start trying to find ways to get more skaa mistborn, build up an army, and cause huge amounts of chaos. I know that would take lots of time and isn't likely, but i'll attribute this to the fact that the Lord Ruler is careful.

Anyway, thank you both for replying! I love discussions like this!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 08:25:17 PM by Andrew the Great »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2008, 06:10:07 AM »
Quote
As for the blood sacrifices, I thought that they were what actually have the metals their hemalurgical properties. They change the metal somehow, so it can be used for hemalurgy. Otherwise it would just be someone sticking metal in themselves. This would also explain why allomancers aren't hemalurgists naturally.

I was also recently thinking about the Lord Ruler's statement where he talks about Inquisitors being difficult to replace. I thought that maybe this had something to do with the procedure for putting the spikes in rather than who had to be sacrificed. In order for an Inquisitor to have 11 spikes in their body, placed just right to provide the correct amount of power (and without killing them in the process, i might add) would probably take a monumental amount of effort. Thus I think that the sacrifices need not have any significance, it is just the cost that gives the metal its hemalurgical properties.

I like the "changing metal" thing. The logical question is, then, why does it change the metal? It probably doesn't mean much, but it could explain another reason why Inquisitors are so hard to create.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2008, 02:50:49 PM »
I am amazed ! Wow ! I love it ! I love it ! But of course, by "burning" blood, it would create fatigue, really. And beside, an inquisitor would not need to add more metal to its blood stream, only restaure the blood level and its ready to function again. Having less blood would not use up the metals from the spike, it would simply wait like deposits in the veins. Your level of intoxication would increase though and that would give you a second reason to need rest.

I think for the skaa theory, we have to listen to Cett's testimony - his line didn't have allomancers any more because they were too mixed with skaa blood. His daughter was the first allomancer to be born for centuries. I also think that the Lord Ruler must have allowed the purest noble lines to reside in Luthadel, and the weakest ones, he would disgrace by sending them to the country. When I think of it, it would have been a good enough reason for Straff to despise Elend. Having a son from another noble woman and he not being even a misting !

Back to hemalurgy - I was thinking that the mist, being of Preservation (maybe) and having a mind of its own, could want to avoid lending its power to those of Ruin ? The rest of that theory should be discussed into the other threads, mainly Ruin & Preservation and Mist.

Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2008, 08:55:32 PM »
Chaos, it occurred to me today that the metal could possibly be changed by the sacrifice so that it would naturally replenish itself. The blood would, after a while, wear away at the spikes and cause them to need replaced, but if the spikes could somehow regenerate themselves, the need for inserting new spikes is gone. The spikes are huge, so they would probably last a good amount of time, but even so, they would wear out eventually. Why would they do this? I would guess it has something to do with the blood from the sacrifice causing the spike to gain the ability to pick up metals from the bloodstream , or possibly convert other elements into metals (this is possible, it just takes a lot of energy). I don't know beyond that, though. If anyone else has other ideas, I'm happy to hear them (then probably take it off in some crazy new direction....I do that sometimes).

Vintage, I was always under the impression that the only difference between the nobles and the skaa was that the Lord Ruler liked one and didn't like (and therefore enslaved) the other. Cett was, in this case, referring to the fact that the skaa blood was blood without the allomancy gene, which diluted his noble line. Nobles have the gene, but among the skaa, only those few skaa mistings and mistborn who have slipped through the cracks do. I think that people have kind of started seperating them as different races simply because they lived such completely opposite lives. It's like having, say, the French nobility vs the French peasants. They are still French, but they are separated into social classes. The skaa and nobles are not races, but social classes.

Except I just thought of a way that this theory might work. The skaa have not inherited allomancy because of the controlled breeding between nobles and skaa, right? Well, what if the skaa at some point in time had an ability that the Lord Ruler didn't know about, and therefore didn't exterminate? The skaa would have passed this ability down, but the nobles, due to the laws passed by the Lord Ruler, would not have inherited the trait. Thus this theory is feasible, but still not necessarily probable. We would have to come up with some sort of trait that would actually make it significant in the first place.

The mist thing, it could possibly be that the mists are of Ruin as well, and likes repel. Personally, however, I tend to believe that the mists are not conscious, they are simply a tool to be controlled by Ruin and Preservation. I think that before, as the Ruin Entity seems to have been trapped in the Well of Ascension, it makes sense that Preservation had more control over the mists. This is reflected in the fact that the mists seemed to be forced away from hemalurgists. Hemalurgy, as a power more associated with Ruin, would have repelled the Preservation-controlled mists. This is why the mists did not attack anyone before the LR died too, they would have been controlled by preservation. However, as Ruin started to gain more influence, the mists started attacking people (not randomly, though we don't know what determined who was attacked yet). If this is true, in book 3, we may see the mists actually being attracted to hemalurgists and repelled by allomancers as Ruin gains more and more power. (Allomancy is, I believe, the power that Preservation always has the most influence over. Feruchemy would be controlled more fully by whoever had more overall power at the time. This would also be reflected in what the mists did). This is, of course, all speculation, and I would encourage anyone and everyone to wipe out this entire post with amazing facts and insight that have never occurred to anyone before. Please do.

Thanks everybody for your thoughts. If anyone has anything else to add, or wants to bring up a problem, I would love it! As always, quotes from the books are appreciated to support arguments (or at least general references....)

As a side note, I read your theory on page 7, chaos. I actually really like it. It's quite similar to mine. I probably would have come up with mine considerably faster if I had read that and just went from there.....oh well.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 09:05:50 PM by Andrew the Great »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2008, 02:33:00 AM »
Ok, what you said about putting the spikes in places where there is blood stuck with me.  There are EIGHT spikes in the chest area, two in the head, and then one down the spine, connecting them.  All the spike have to be connected inorder for an inquisitor to live ( at least the top ones havfe to connect to the bottom ones).  I was just wondering what is the importance of all the spikes touching, we haven't really come up with anything yet.
We came up before that the word hemalrugy comes from hema meaing blood and lurgy like in metallurgy, which is the mixing of metals.  What if the sacrifices are needed, to provide blood to mix with liquid metals,   thereby making them blood metals, just athought, probably totally impossible and dumb, but that's a possible explanation for the sacrifices.
And they inquisitors probably need a spike of atium right, a solid spike of pure atium, that would be expensive, wouldn't it??
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2008, 09:00:45 AM »
Coma-I think this "atium cache" we have yet to discover is vaster we could even imagine. There would be plenty of atium for an atium spike.

Andrew-Yeah, the theories are similar. That's why I kept having to compare them :P

I really like how you defined Allomancy and Hemalurgy in terms of Ruin and Preservation. I mean, it seems so OBVIOUS now. I am steadfastly certain the Lord Ruler picked up Preservation at the Well, so, if he got that and "created" Allomancy, it would naturally be based in Preservation. The Ruin-Hemalurgy link is very well explained, so that works for me.

I still don't really like that sacrifice explanation though. Just... seems weird, I guess. More stuff to work on, then.

Comatose does have something, though. The spikes are all touching. That's important... we haven't gotten onto that point yet.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2008, 07:29:19 PM »
Rereading this thread I noticed that the posts keep getting longer and longer and longer.

The posts have been building on each other for the most part, and now we have a very complex description of hemalurgy, or at least a guess of what it is.

However, since the posts have gotten so long, I started thinking at things from another angle.  I'm a big fan of Occam's razor (the simplest solution is usually the best).  Thus, I applied that principal to this and came up with the following:

First, what do we know about hemalurgy.  We know that it is (likely) used by the Lord Ruler, and it is definitely used by Inquisitors.  The Lord Ruler I think is a special case, since he took the power from the well, etc.  Thus, I didn't use him in the theory, since using him as evidence could complicate the analysis since he has been exposed to other sources of power that could explain the phenomenon.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

Now, the last part there could be debated.  However, (from the "Do inquisitors burn metals) thread, I think there is good evidence that they do burn metals.  In addition, we know the powers they have are the exact same as what allomancers use.  They can push/pull metals.  They can make themselves stronger.  They can pierce a copper cloud.  They haven't done anything that allomancers can't (*except one, which I'll explain).   I don't see a reason to have two magic systems that have the same powers, just different sources of that power.  Thus, I would say (again, using Occam's razor) that inquisitors use allomancy in the exact same way Mistings and Mistborn do.

The only thing that we know they do, that isn't a product of allomancy, is healing very fast.  It just so happens, that while Allomancers can't do this, we know that Feruchemists can.

Thus, we have inquistors, who use hemalurgy, who have powers, but those powers all exists in the world of allomancy or feruchemy.

This leaves me with the following conclusion.  Instead of Hemalurgy being this complex system involving using your blood to fuel powers or something, what if it is as simple as a process that let's you 'steal' powers from an Allomancer or a Feruchemist.

In addition to being IMO the "simple" answer, I think there is plenty of evidence in support of this.

There is lots of evidence that suggests hemalurgy is a process for the most part.

We could assume that if you 'steal' a power from someone that you already have, it would make you even stronger at it.   This could explain why Vin can pierce copper clouds, just as inquisitors can, but she can't heal like them.  Maybe if you stole the power from 3 coin shots, your power to push metals would be far above what a normal coinshot would have.  Also, like with Marsh, if he had the ablity of a seeker, then stole the powers of a seeker, he would have even more seeker power.  Brandon mentions in his annotations that the ability to pierce a coper cloud and affect metals inside the body isn't something special, it's just someone being very very powerful with that particular skill.

We know that people are killed in the process of hemalurgy.  It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think if you stole someone's power, it would involve killing them to do so.

We also know that TLR is obsessed with tracking down skaa mistings and feruchemists.  We are given adequate explanations in the series for why he wants to do this.  But, what if he also does it so that he can use them in the creation of more inquisitors.

How does this sound to everyone else?

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2008, 12:48:37 AM »
I like your post, Phaz but I also disagree with some of it.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

We do not actually know that they have the powers of a mistborn, at least from what I recall. If you have a passage to support this, I would appreciate it. As is, we know that they can push/pull metals and that they can use atium. It is likely that they strengthen themselves with pewter. However, I can't recall an inquisitor ever using emotional allomancy. They would have no need of tin as it would not help their "blue line" vision anyway, and hearing better wouldn't really help them. They don't need aluminum, and likely not duralumin as they are so powerful in the first place. I would say that it is possible that they have the powers of mistborn, but has by no means been proven.

The other debate is whether or not they use allomancy. I would think that some of them would be mistings and thus could use allomancy. However, we have yet to see an Inquisitor actually ingest metals. They could possibly be allomancy/hemalurgy mixture users, but there is just as much evidence to suggest this as there is that they are pure hemalurgists.

The reason the two systems are so incredibly similar is because, quite simply, I couldn't think of anything at all for hemalurgy to give them. We just haven't seen much of the inquisitors. I personally think that they are too similar as well. I think that they would naturally have similarities, as well as with feruchemy, but I couldn't think of what other powers to give the inquisitors.

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I don't see a reason to have two magic systems that have the same powers, just different sources of that power.

Neither could I, but then I noticed something...

In Allomancy, Pewter supplies the burner with added strength and speed. In Feruchemy, Pewter stores strength and steel stores speed.

In Allomancy, tin increases the users senses. Tin allows a Feruchemist to store senses.

Allomancers use atium to see the future, but it also speeds up their thought process. Feruchemists can accomplish this thought speeding with zinc.

There are several similarities between the two systems, wouldn't you say? And what's the real difference? The source of power.

Likewise....

Using hemalurgy, you can push and pull metals. This is also possible in allomancy.

Using hemalurgy, you can see the future (though possibly differently than allomancy, we don't really know). This is also possible in allomancy.

Using hemalurgy, you can rapidly heal yourself. This is also possible using Feruchemy.

I think the overlapping is fairly justified considering what we've already seen.

It is entirely possible that Inquisitors use allomancy, but until I see something that gets rid of the possibility, I personally will believe that the Inquisitors are primarily hemalurgists.

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This leaves me with the following conclusion.  Instead of Hemalurgy being this complex system involving using your blood to fuel powers or something, what if it is as simple as a process that let's you 'steal' powers from an Allomancer or a Feruchemist.

It very well could be, and I actually quite like this idea. It explains fully the necessity for a sacrifice. However, it also has its problems.

My interpretation of this is that you would kill a skaa misting with a particular allomantic power and put his/her blood on a spike. Then you stick the spike in yourself and you magically gain their power through their blood. This would also apply with a Feruchemist, allowing inquisitors to use feruchemy.

However, feruchemy doesn't have the all-or-nothing limitations of allomancy, so if Inquisitors are "stealing" Feruchemial powers, they should have all of them, not just healing. We have seen no evidence of this thus far, and you would think we would have, particularly when marsh is fighting Sazed. Also, the Inquisitors wouldn't be so fascinated with feruchemy and its capabilities.

 
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We could assume that if you 'steal' a power from someone that you already have, it would make you even stronger at it.   This could explain why Vin can pierce copper clouds, just as inquisitors can, but she can't heal like them.  Maybe if you stole the power from 3 coin shots, your power to push metals would be far above what a normal coinshot would have.  Also, like with Marsh, if he had the ablity of a seeker, then stole the powers of a seeker, he would have even more seeker power.  Brandon mentions in his annotations that the ability to pierce a coper cloud and affect metals inside the body isn't something special, it's just someone being very very powerful with that particular skill.

I originally really liked this, but the problem comes with someone who already has a particular skill. From my above mentioned interpretation, you would gain the ability to burn metals. However, if you already have that particular ability, i can't see why it would make you any stronger. The only way of doing this would be if it provided a continuous power source, which I don't see how that would work.

Overall, it's a very good idea, but I just don't see how it would work. If I am misunderstanding or you think of a way it might work, I would love to hear about it. It's good for us to discuss all options. 

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I really like how you defined Allomancy and Hemalurgy in terms of Ruin and Preservation. I mean, it seems so OBVIOUS now. I am steadfastly certain the Lord Ruler picked up Preservation at the Well, so, if he got that and "created" Allomancy, it would naturally be based in Preservation. The Ruin-Hemalurgy link is very well explained, so that works for me.

I was thinking about this today, Chaos, and I thought myself that it may have been preservation he touched. I'll go into my full theory over on ruin and preservation.

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I still don't really like that sacrifice explanation though. Just... seems weird, I guess. More stuff to work on, then.

I've always felt that this is the weakest point in my theory. I just haven't been able to come up with any other reason yet, although if the Inquisitors actually do gain allomancy, the thing about killing mistings makes the most sense. I have a hard time believing the inquisitor allomancy thing, but I have yet to find a better explanation. I'll keep thinking.

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Comatose does have something, though. The spikes are all touching. That's important... we haven't gotten onto that point yet.


My initial thought when I read that was that as the spikes sever the spinal cord, They are the only connection to the brain. If the inquisitors have to think about using hemalurgy to heal themselves, then once they lose the ability of their brain to communicate with the rest of their body (i assume the gold spike is in the chest, as the lynch pin is steel and no one remarks about inquisitors having gold sticking out of their eyes...) they are no longer able to heal themselves. Could be wrong, but this makes a lot of sense to me.

Phaz, I really like your idea, but I just don't feel there's all that much to support it. So for now, I stick with my original theory of hemalurgy. Now to work out all the bugs.....sacrifices.......mist repelling......yes

As a side note, you guys really aren't nearly brutal enough in tearing me apart. I encourage you to do so at the end of every post and I get like one thing each time. How am I supposed to fix it if you guys don't tell me what to fix? It also makes me feel kinda bad when I start picking on phaz, here....(*contemplates deeply on the matter of tearing posts apart....*)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 04:19:12 AM by Andrew the Great »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2008, 01:26:32 AM »
I like your post, Phaz but I also disagree with some of it.

So, Inquisitors.  We know that they can be made from allomancers (Marsh).  We know that they have the powers of a mistborn.  We know that their abilities are usually stronger than normal Mistborn.   We know that they use allomancy.

We do not actually know that they have the powers of a mistborn, at least from what I recall. If you have a passage to support this, I would appreciate it. As is, we know that they can push/pull metals and that they can use atium. It is likely that they strengthen themselves with pewter. However, I can't recall an inquisitor ever using emotional allomancy. They would have no need of tin as it would not help their "blue line" vision anyway, and hearing better wouldn't really help them. They don't need aluminum, and likely not duralumin as they are so powerful in the first place. I would say that it is possible that they have the powers of mistborn, but has by no means been proven.


I don't have a ton of time, but wanted to address this quick point.

First, it's true, we haven't seen them use all the powers of a Mistborn, but IMO they have been shown (or we've heard) about them using many.  I'd say we know they can use steel, iron, atium, pewter, bronze, and possibly copper.

They don't need to have all the powers of a Mistborn, especially if we are assuming that hemalurgy simply 'steals' the power of a misting.  Why take something you aren't going to need?  They won't need Tin to see, but could perhaps use it to hear.  The emotional ones probably aren't necessary though, nor is alumninum, so why bother?

As for the rest.  I would say that what we see inquisitors do is the same as what we see allomancers do.  My best evidence for this are two key fights.

When Kell fights the inquisitor, the fight seems very balanced.  They are both strong in the same way, they both use metal in the same way, they both move in the same way.   I can't point out a lot of specific details, but it has the 'feel' of them being very much the same.

However, when Sazed fights Marsh, the fight does not feel that way.  Sazed can move much faster than Marsh (for short periods).  When Sazed changes physically, he changes physically.  He gets inhumanly large or or thin or muscular.

To me, reading about inquisitors, it just seemed like they were using the same powers.  They do things in the same way.

Also, we know metal is involved, so maybe the different types of metals are what effects what abilities you can steal.  Such as maybe a gold spike will steal the healing ability from a feruchemist, and a different kind of spike would steal a different ability.

Finally, feel free to be as critical of my posts as you can :)  I believe it was Einstein who was famous for pointing out that no number of people agreeing with you can ever make you right.  However, it only takes one person to prove you wrong.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2008, 04:27:46 AM »
The only thing that really bothers me about the inquisitors using allomancy is that we never actually have proof that they do. During the battle between kell and the inquisitor, is Vin burning bronze? That would be a good indication. To me, though, the general lack of actual proof that they were allomancers and the fact that it is stated so often that they are was kind of a red flag. I don't actually have any proof. In the long run, I don't think it matters much for hemalurgy except in the actual abilities that hemalurgy would provide.

As to your theory.... I don't know, something about it just doesn't feel quite right to me. I can't quite place it, but I'll think on it and let you know. It seems to be possible, but Brandon has emphasized that hemalurgy is its own system often enough that it seems to me that it would be something original rather than stealing other powers.

My real problem is we just don't see hemalurgy in action all that much....I'm really really excited for book 3. It should be interesting coming around here after its out and having an I told you so party.

I would like to focus more on possible other abilities hemalurgy could give if you guys don't mind. I think understanding what it allows is what will allow us to understand the system. It could be the process of stealing allomancy and feruchemy, but I just don't feel right on that one. So anyone got alternative powers bestowed through the use of feruchemy?
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2008, 02:18:20 PM »
If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2008, 02:32:49 PM »
There are two major battle scenes in book one that specifically show the Inquisitors using the abilities that Mistborn use.  They counteract Vin's Atium when she goes with Kelsier to Kredik Shaw.  They shoot little metal spikes at her, which she blocks with Alendi's logbook.  Kelsier's fight in the Square has more examples.  Finally, Kar's viewpoint in book 1 let's us in on how they "see".  Thousands and thousands of blue lines, like what an allomancer sees while burning iron and/or steel.  The Lord Ruler also comments on their "fabricated" abilities.  What about this; going along with several other theories (inlcuding my own), what if the blood sacrifice transfers the victim's abilities into the metal?  I am not just talking about Allomantic power, although TLR's comment on how hard they are to make leads me to believe that Mistings are required, I mean health, age, strength, everything.  This could explain the extra long life, quick healing, and others, especially when you combine Allomantic powers.  I really like the metal to power ratio theory.  It makes sense that how much of a metal allows increased power.  I am not sure the metal in the blood is a factor, though.  I think it is more that the user can channel energy through the metals to tap the powers within.  This makes it different from Allomancy and Feruchemy.  One stores power of the body to be reused, one uses the metal's power directly, consuming the metal, and the last one uses the body's energy, which is replenished through food and rest.  I know it doesn't say that the Inq's eat, but I am sure they do.

p.s - for whomever said that Allomancers can burn metal all day long with no consequence, please look up Pewter dragging.  
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