Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 35651 times)

Chaos

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Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 03, 2008, 07:17:32 PM »
I discovered something very interesting as I was reading through the MB1 annotations. http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/163/Mistborn-Chapter-Thirty-Four-Part-Two says an interesting fact about the Lord Ruler.

Quote
I put the Lord Ruler in black and white--rather than just black, as I'd originally planned--to give metaphoric reference to his belief that he is God. He's both black and white--he encompasses all, and controls all. Of course, he's faking. In the mythology of this world, there are two forced--Ruin and Preservation--and he really only touched one of the two powers. But, then, we'll have more on that in later books.

Ruin and Preservation. This is probably the most crucial piece of information I've uncovered from the MB1 annotations (and yes, it took a herculean effort to say "crucial" instead of "interesting" a third time). I'm fairly certain this hasn't been discussed in the forum yet, so, let's talk about it here.\

Obviously this is a colossal revelation to... well, everything. The Allomancy-Feruchemy-Hemalurgy triads of magics are probably influenced, and most important, the exact nature of the Well of Ascension.

So let's think about this for a minute. The Well, of course, has a lot of power. Since Brandon just said the Lord Ruler touched one of those powers, its the one at the Well. That means we have either Ruin or Preservation to decide from here. This is the important part. We can presume that the Well Spirit inside there (locked away or imprisoned, whatever) is malevolent, sending the Deepness to cause chaos and "ruin" in order to make a Hero set it free. It lends itself to the whole Ruin mechanic there.

And really, the Lord Ruler isn't Mary Poppins. He is quite malevolent himself, and I'm pretty sure that he's responsible for the Ashmounts and the lack of green plants in the Final Empire (I say "pretty sure" because without MB3 out, there could always be something we don't know. Like if the Deepness actually was responsible for it. That's implausible, but I'm just saying. It could be a lot of things). If the Well, essentially, is the quintessential Ruin force, and the Lord Ruler got his power from there, then his power also derives from Ruin.

But then again, in a sense, the Lord Ruler "preserved" the world from certain destruction that the Well Spirit, or perhaps we should be calling the Ruin Entity or something along those lines, would have caused. If that's the case, that totally destroys my theory there.

If the Lord Ruler touched Ruin like I think he did, it could explain why he's a lot more evil. We don't exactly know the effect of what will happen as someone takes the Well's power for himself. Vin describes it like she would have to burn all the power away in a few instances. But you gotta wonder... the Lord Ruler can pierce copperclouds and has more power than even his Allomancy/Feruchemy could do, it seems. I doubt that instead of freeing the Ruin Entity, having it live inside you for a thousand years probably doesn't make you any more good, just more evil (I would think a Preservation influence would whip the Lord Ruler to not do his horrible atrocities).

It's logical to assume that if the Well of Ascension, as we know it, is merely the sum of the Ruin force, there could be a second Well that has the power of Preservation, just for balance sakes. That doesn't make any sense, but it's possible.

Of course, if the Lord Ruler actually touched Preservation at the Well, and the Ruin spirit also lives there (by some strange paradox), then the Well has both powers. But now I'm just confusing myself. Feel free to interpret this information any way you want. God knows I'm just perplexing myself with all of this.

But the whole Ruin/Preservation duality has to be recognized for MB3, that much is certain.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 09:11:22 PM »
Good catch. How many people read the annotations?

The names Ruin and Preservation are mentioned in MB2. Did you catch the reference? (I can't remember if they were mentioned at all in the first book.)

The dichotomy plays a large role in the third book, and once you read it, certain things in the first couple books will make a lot more sense.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 09:14:45 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 11:41:24 PM »
How do YOU know, lol? That's no fair :P

They are mentioned in MB2? I don't think it said that explicitly, or at least not obviously. Sigh. Do you know about what chapter it's mentioned in? Because scrolling through annotations is one thing. WoA is a beast to find instances of two words...

EDIT: It's been a couple of months since I read MB1, but yesterday I read all of it after Kelsier's death, and it didn't mention it there, so I doubt highly it is. Before MB3 comes out I'll reread them both, but if it isn't mentioned in the annotations either, it isn't there. :D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 11:43:08 PM by Chaos2651 »
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 01:09:04 AM »
Yes, they're mentioned in the same sentence somewhere in MB2. In a sneaky spot. Now you'll have to go read the whole book again to find it.  8)

I think it would be unfair of me, as an alpha reader who knows the significance, to point out the reference, even in a general area. It's a clue Brandon put in for people who are paying really close attention. I've referred to it before, in this thread. Now that these two names have been found in the annotations, it might be more motivation for someone to keep an eye out for it during a WoA read-through.
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 05:24:45 AM »
Well, you go tell Brandon that when he mentions something like that in the annotations, he's just asking for forum goers and theorists to pour over it like the tidbit was a drop of water in the Sahara. :D Heck, if he just said something as simple as "Elend pwns" (or if that's too lowly language for him, "Elend is super awesome"), I'm sure that would give credence for a certain theory that says Elend's power is from the WoA, which obviously means he will become the most powerful Mistborn in MB3.

For future reference, I do hate you. So... long... to... wait... for... MB3. Just so you have that all cleared up. I don't know if it's right for me to say, but my anticipation for that book is beyond belief.

Now I will go through all of MB2 to find it! I'll probably stay up pouring until midnight and my eyes are all exhausted beyond belief, tears of fatigue blinding me so I can't even see the words!

*cries* If only there was a Find option like Firefox or Word had... then it would be so easy.  Search "Ruin and preservation", then it would tell me the answer I so desire. Though, telling me in that thread you linked me to that it's "out of context" and that they are mentioned in the same sentence, I will find it, by the Lord Ruler! Even if it takes me multiple readthroughs!

And in lieu of a better term (or until I find it), I hereby proclaim that the WoA spirit to be called the Ruin Entity, just because it sounds cool.

On a completely different note, how did I not see that Zane is controlled by the Ruin Entity? I seriously just thought he was some asshole psychopath the entire time in MB2...
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 03:46:34 PM »
A new clue to research, Awesome!  I must admit, when I first starting seeing the posts from Alpha readers like Ookla, I was a little jealous.  After thinking about it, however, I realized how much it must be killing them to keep this secret.  To be oh so careful with every post, as to not accidentally give something away.  To resist the urge to flame some ridiculous theory, or to politely reject and deflect constant requests by people to give them "just a little clue".   It can't be easy, although I freely admit I would take that burden!  ;D
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mists59

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 06:50:32 PM »
its mentioned in mb2 when vin and the kandra are discussing religions. he is telling her that humans are destined to destroy the world using the koloss as their servants. he mentions that we(humans) are of ruin and they(kandra) are of preservation. i think!!! :)

hope that helps
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Miriel

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 07:01:04 PM »
Kind of going along with the last post -- the kandra were made by the Lord Ruler, right?  He kept things the same for a thousand years.  The same people in positions of authority (nobles), the same people downtrod (skaa).  Preservation of an unpretty world, preservations perhaps to the point of stagnation, but I don't think I'd list him as a force for ruin.  The "ruin spirit" at the well certainly didn't get what he wanted out of the Lord Ruler, at least.  The Lord Ruler trapped him.  I dunno.  I could be completely wrong, but that's what jumps to mind.

Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 07:43:19 PM »
its mentioned in mb2 when vin and the kandra are discussing religions. he is telling her that humans are destined to destroy the world using the koloss as their servants. he mentions that we(humans) are of ruin and they(kandra) are of preservation. i think!!! :)

hope that helps

Aha! Well, I've already begun my second WoA readthrough, so if its in the book, I'll find it. As of page 120, neither "ruin" or "preservation" has appeared in the book. Either way, I'll work my through the entire book, because the scenes at the Conventical of Seran were very illuminating about the Steel Inquisitors. They leave mystery, sure, but mystery, in a way, is illuminating. I guess.

Miriel - Yeah, that's why I was kinda confusing myself with this thread's first post. The Lord Ruler is really more Preservation, to the extreme, like you said.

But, maybe it's just my need for symmetry and logic, that if the Well held the power of Preservation (which the Lord Ruler subsequently touched), then how the crap did the Ruin Entity get there? I hope, with all the hordes Brandon has to explain in MB3 (Hemalurgy, the Ruin/Preservation duality, why the ash falls, wrapping up the trilogy in a sweet ending, and let's not forget the 15th/16th metals), he doesn't forget little facts like that :P

darxbane - I would totally take that burden. Hint hint, Brandon. Just saying.
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Pygmalion

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 09:51:42 PM »
How long is MB3 going to be? With all this and more to clear up methinks it's going to have to be mighty long. (Heh, the more the better!)
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 10:15:38 PM »
As long as its not as long as Paolini's Inheritance "trilogy". Supposedly that third book got so long it was split to two books.

But then again, these alpha readers can attest to, they've already read the book. So we know it can't be that long.
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 04:49:44 PM »
However long it is, I'm sure it will be great.  I don't think I found a single page of the first two books that dragged.    Getting back to topic,  I don't think that the power Rashek took made him evil.  Some of Alendi's writings spoke of how Rashek despised the Khlennium (sp?). There are also references that he felt the Terris should be the dominant race.  The power of the well simply gave him an opportunity to enact his own philosophies, with the slight adjustment of dominating anyone who disagreed with him or were a threat.  If that meant subjugating his own people, then so be it.  It was for the good of the world, after all.  As to whether he was touching upon Ruin or Preservation, I have no idea.  It almost seems like he was preserving his world by keeping it in ruin.  I don't know if that makes any sense though.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
well i'm gonna go and steal the theory of balance from wot here just for the heck of it. for every good there must be a bad to compensate (or vice versa if you're the glass half empty type). anyways it would make sense to me that the well must have both ruin and preservation but it then becomes up to the "hero" to determine how it is used. so you could say that the lord ruler preserved the world by pushing back the mists. and in a way you could even say that he used nothing but preservation since it seems likely that Rashek considered his actions justified. but thats not my main point. what if the well spirit is ruin and the mist spirit is preservation? the mist spirit struck me as an ally of sorts. he tried to get sazed to stop vin, stabbed elend so vin would take the power rather than release it, and when that didn't work helped vin to save elend's life. he seems like the perfect avatar for preservation. imo. :)

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 06:56:33 PM »
That was my thought as well.  Preservation is the good force, and Ruin is the evil force.  That poses a new question: was the power that Vin released the entity itself, or was the power holding the entity from touching the world freely, like a seal? (now I'm starting to steal from WoT).  Of course, we may just be reading too much into this.
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 07:21:27 PM »
I agree, there's definitely a light/dark and good/evil duality going on. But, like Miriel mentioned, the Lord Ruler is a force of Preservation to the extreme, so much that it stagnates the world. And technically, the Lord Ruler is evil, too, because of all his atrocities. That means even the paragon of Preservation, the Lord Ruler, can be evil.

Therefore, it can be reasonably presumed that good/evil is independent of Ruin and Preservation. Ruin/Preservation are forces, not ideals.

So rather than "good" completely winning out, there will have to be a balance struck at the end of MB3, to prevent another Lord Ruler from existing. Plus, doing something like that seems like the typical, cliche-breaking thing Brandon would do.
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