Author Topic: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly  (Read 6666 times)

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 07:21:16 AM »
I couldn't even get through Shaman's Crosssing. I guess that goes to show the.... everyone likes different books for different reasons.
I thought Shaman's Crossing was definitely Hobb's weakest book so far, with the possible exception of the third Assassin book. I made it all the way though (S's C), but didn't care about anyone.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

Flian

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2007, 11:00:07 PM »
Cant compare things to Brandon, sorry havent read him yet, but we all love fantasy so here are some of my favorites.

Elizabeth Hayden: Rhapsody is the first great series with music based magic.  And our hero is a Heroine YAY!!!.  Some time travel and lots of different unique "species"

Jaqueline Carey: Kushiel's Dart is book 1. You can really see her writing mature as you go on, again female Heroine.  However there is a lot of sexual content and this is not for the young readers.

Ed Greenwood: Band of hero novels... This is the basis of D&D and much of what we have in fantasy today.  It wreaks of the RPG games of past and present.  Good fast fun reads.  I love his humor.

Larry Niven : specifically "The magic goes away" Good luck finding it.  Its a short and its VERY short.  But it is a good look at a world with failing magic.  Niven has written lots of sci-fi fantasy and his thoughts and concepts are unique.



« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 10:50:50 PM by Flian »

Azhev

  • Level 5
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Wanderer of my own little world
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 02:28:38 AM »
I actually liked Shaman's Crossing, but couldn't finish Forest Mage.

My favorites...

Terry Brooks: definately one of my favorite authors.  His first book, Sword of Shannara is a rehash of Lord of the Rings, but his succeeding books of that world are definately worth reading the first.  His series, Word and the Void, is perhaps is best to date: a dark, urban fantasy.

Greg Keyes:  His series Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone is awesome!!  It's set in a fantasy world that has a tie to our's.  It is well written with engaging characters and a unique form of "magic".  When I mention him to others, people always look at my like, "Who?"
"The ending of a book is, in my experience, both the best and the worst part to read.  For the ending will often decide whethet you love or hate the book."

-Alcatraz Smedry, Alcatraz Versus the Evil Librarians, p262

Daarian

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 02:35:52 AM »
Yeah.. I loved the Shannara books as they are what got me into the fantasy genre.. read The Hobbit after them. But the Word and the Void was also good.

I read any book that catches my interest really.

Fiona McIntosch - The Quickening Trilogy was pretty good. The first book is Myrren's Gift.

""Don't talk to me about nobleman," Vin said. "And don't say things about people you don't know.  You're no skaa-- you're just nobleman without titles." - Quote from Mistborn

demon

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2007, 08:22:50 AM »
ok so heres what i got for christmas... R scott bakker  the darkness that comes before... and robin hobbs assassins apprentice... im going to start those as soon as i complete Mass Effect on my xbox , oh and find a job because i was fired last friday... nice ot be fired before xmas
Hope never dies

Errent

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 07:16:59 AM »
I just thought I'd reply with hearty agreements all around. Demon, I'm thrilled to see what an amazing impact Brandon's books have had on your life. Sometimes it's just amazing.

Since NBGA has yet to make an appearance, I also thought I'd make a few remarks on George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series--remarks which could probably be applied to a couple of the other suggestions made throughout this post. Granted, Insomnius, I'm not Bookstore Guy, though he and I have had this conversation before . . . but I might be able to make some suggestions as to why he suggested the series.

First, I'm impressed you set the series aside. Not because of the series, but because of the genre. It says a lot. It says that you know what you like, and I'm always thrilled to find other readers like that. Readers don't have to suffer through crap we don't like . . . Hell, Tolkien and Lewis wrote their works because they couldn't find anything they wanted out there (granted, Tolkien wanted a LOT, but we're grateful for it.) So I'm in your camp there. It doesn't surprise me that it was Martin either . . . people either love him or hate him.

That said, you should know that Bookstore Guy didn't suggest Martin because of the language, whether it's vulgarity or its anachronisities . . . though I have to confess: they aren't that anachronistic. Most of the profanity has been around since about the 1400's . . . heck, the OED has a reference for SOB that dates back to 1330. Granted that doesn't exactly mean that these words were common place back then, but they DID exist and there are recorded uses. Since Martin has based much of the setting of ASoIF on the War of the Roses, which started in the mid-1400's, the language isn't exactly out of place . . . though the profanity is probably used more in Martin's series than it would have been back then. I say you've got a good point though in this: no reader should have to put up with distractions. If it distracts you, then it's not your type of book.

Your second point can definately be applied to Martin . . . He's got a cast of thousands, and there is a lot about his world he just doesn't reveal. It makes many of the events in the books seem very coincidental, or convenient, or  inconsistent. That section where Catelyn Stark returns from the grave as undead made me drop the book. I hadn't had any preparation for that. Part of me loves it, and part of me doesn't. However, just because something hasn't happened in the series doesn't mean that it can't. Returning from the dead isn't exactly an unfamiliar occurance in fantasy . . . and let's face it: we had no warning that Gandalf would come back. We just sort of take it for granted (decades after the book was first released) that this is how the book needed to be. All that we know is that Eru (God) sent him back . . . Similarly, there are many things in Jordan's Wheel of Time which we are told are impossible, but managed to be overcome. I remember thinking certain characters were done for after they were stilled or gentled . . . it had been clear that not even in the Age of Legend had that been curable. Convenient that the characters find out how to do it here.
     This, however, is more of a direct address to why BookstoreGuy suggested Martin . . . and why the series is so loved and hated. It is different in many ways. Much of the fantasy liguistical aspects are pretty plain and straight forward; much of the relationships and situations are basic (bastard son of the king, people seeking the crown, dragons, etc.); and the characters, the thousands of characters, don't stand out as uniquely as they do in most fantasies. What people love is how these elements combine in unexpected ways. It's the fact that there really IS no congruity. *SPOILERS BEWARE* Our "hero" dies at the end of book, a boy is left seriously crippled, the best swordsman's HAND is cut off (why no bad guys ever thought of that before, i DON'T know), and we've only seen people come back to life with BAD effects. *END OF SPOILERS* It's unexpected, and instead of the thrill of anticipating a foretold event, we anticipate an explanation. The characters may not stand out (there's no elf, no dwarf--wait. Scratch that last one.), but that's because they aren't as cookie cutter as we expect them to be. It takes more investment, but we enjoy characters because their choices describe them, not their quirks. It's a harsh way of writing, and it's risky. Just about as many foibles in Martin's style as there are fortes . . . it isn't for everyone. Hell, it isn't for MOST people. But others should be made aware that it is there.

As for your final point, I must concede here. Martin is VERY quiet about how these religions work. I personally wish there were more information about that. It's a very fine line between ambiuity and TMI, and I personally think you're on the ball here. He's ambiguous, and I'm not sure if the value of religion will ever be clarified in the series. The War of the Roses was a very gritty, harsh thing. Religion can be incredibly impotent concerning the matter of succession. That seems to be what Martin's series is about . . . an issue of struggle. Not of Good versus Evil, but struggle between people in general. My feeling is that if a religion has power, then it should have a purpose for that power (reasons behind it, and goals before it) . . . but then again, I'm not choosing how the book is written. Just whether I read it.

Hopefully you can see that BookstoreGuy recommended the series, not because it was perfect or for everyone, but just that it has a strong track record. He and I both find issue with some aspects of Martin's writing . . . but mostly were just damn jealous, and just wish we could write that well and have so few issues ourselves.

Merit-wise in general, however. I'm not going to touch that one. The world itself could argue about what stories have merit and which don't, and the discussion would last until the end of time. Merit is one thing to one person, and another to the next. Martin just so happens to fall into the category of authors for whom there isn't much middle ground. Either way, Excellent points, and I'm interested in hearing what alternatives to Martin you might recommend.

EDIT: Other than Gaiman. He's fabulous, but I've read just about all that he's done.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 07:25:11 AM by Errent »
"that answer is inextricably contingent upon the type of life being led... and, of course, the quality of the pancakes."

CUBAREY

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 29
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2007, 02:10:12 PM »
I like philosophical writers who mix philosophy with a bit of Scifi/fantasy. Now I detest Goodkind (I like philosophy, I don't like being repeatedly hit over the head with it).   I like large books, and long series'. While I did not find Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time overly philosophical I also did not find its 8,00 -8,500 page length at all bothersome. With those caveats in mind, who would you guys recommend?

P.S. I have read most of the "Great White Male" authors that some of us oldsters believe are stll essential reading to be considered "educated", so authors being a littlke tedious or long winded is not a problem for me, lack of quality is.

Bookstore Guy

  • Level 21
  • *
  • Posts: 1089
  • Fell Points: 2
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 04:37:37 PM »
Sorry for the delay in responding.  I've been on vacation and sick, so I've been a bit under-the-radar.

This is basically to respond to Insomnius.  Sorry for not replying sooner.  I usually respond better.  In fact, the only reason I am responding right now is because Im all hopped up on cold medicine...

Anyways, with regards to the vulgarity in Martin's work.  I actually had this same problem until a little ways back.  Scott Lynch does the same thing in his fantasy novel.  After thinking about it for a good while, however, I changed my mind.  You see, if this book were actually on our earth, in that time period, then maybe I would still have that problem - disregarding the fact that most of what they said (vulgarities included) was different from how we say things now (In fact, if every fantasy novel was written using grammar from that time period, I doubt it would sell at all due to how tiresome it would be to read.).

But these novels are written in a fantasy world.  Not ours.

How can you prove an inconsistancy of swear words in a world you've never been to?  Errent made some very good points about those words exisiting back in an older time, but really, none of that matters (no offense man, those WERE good points though!).  Martin created the 'Fire and Ice' world, so he makes the rules.  If the people swear like that in HIS world, then that's how it goes.  The mistake that many of us are guilty of (myself included) is comparing author's works to our own real world that we live in.  However, after stopping this comparison, I myself began to be less bothered by it.  That's just how people talk in that FANTASY world.  Also, you can't prove an inconsistacy between that and the use of the word Ser in a world you've never lived in.  Martin made this world, and that's how they talk in his made-up world.  That's why this doesnt bother me anymore.

The undead thing kinda catches you by surprise, no doubt about it.  However, the question I ask myself is, In a world where the magic is subtle and unexpected and not even the characters understand it - how can we completely understand it?  Now, I would like there to have been more foreshadowing and such, but like Errent said, thats what draws a lot of people to this series - the unexpectedness of everything.

I agree with religions, I would like them to be a bit more fleshed out.  Personally (and no offense intended), I think that the issue with telling someone to "go to hell" and there not being mentions of heaven or hell in the religious area is kinda nit-picking.  I could very well argue that since in this particular fantasy world a person tells another to "go to hell", that this implies a belief that there is a hell to go to, and thus there is no need to fully elaborate.  But like i said, I pretty much agree that a bit more fleshing out of religions would be great in his stuff.

So there you have it.  Errent basically said why I like Martin's stuff for me, so I wont go there.  This was just responding to Insomnius' points.  Hopefully my points made some sense amid my cold medicine.
Check out our blog, Elitist Book Reviews at:
http://elitistbookreviews.blogspot.com/

demon

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 01:55:43 AM »
soryr i havent written back to any one, thanks again for the wonderful suggestions all of these books sound faboulus, unfortunatly i wont be able to do much ready for the next 15 weeks. i enlisted into the U.S. army and i am to be shipped out on january 15th. i am half way through assassins apprentice, im enjoying it although not as much as i enjoyed brandons works.
Hope never dies

Azhev

  • Level 5
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Wanderer of my own little world
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2008, 06:34:59 PM »
Good luck to you, demon.   Hope you enjoy Assassins Aprentice.
"The ending of a book is, in my experience, both the best and the worst part to read.  For the ending will often decide whethet you love or hate the book."

-Alcatraz Smedry, Alcatraz Versus the Evil Librarians, p262

Insomnius

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 01:35:44 PM »
Hello all. NBGA and Errent I very much appreciate your responses. And there was no offense taken by anything :D

I guess it just boils down to personal taste. (I cannot tell you how I taste - you'll just have to take a bite....ewwwww)

For me, Martin's unexpectedness of everything comes across as either immature or panicky. Either way, again in my own humble opinion, I find it detracts from the experience of immersing myself in the world.

This is of course something that varies from individual to individual - my reading style is that I cannot read more than one book at a time. (Also the same for listening to music - I tend to latch on to something I like and immerse myself in it for a while then I don't listen to it for months). So, for me, when something interferes with my ability to completely lose myself in a world, I get frustrated and distracted with the eventual end that I do not end up reading the rest of the book.

It's writers like Neil Gaiman, Douglas Adams, and Ray Bradbury whose worlds I use as yarsticks by which I measure other writers' worlds. These are the writers who shaped my understanding of fantasy (along with Tolkien and CS Lewis but that was from childhood where I was much less discerning).

I like the young Stark boy who ran into the forest as a warg. I was deeply hurt when Ed Stark was beheaded. I truly cared about the world in the first two novels. The third just did not measure up to the yardstick in my mind and I got lost....

And then the next installment of WoT came out (at the time it was Crossroads of Twilight) and there was no reason for me to continue slogging through the Martin book.

Anywho - thank you for the respectful and thoughtful responses - it is greatly appreciated :)


The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 02:32:38 PM »
does it have to be a bite? or can we just lick?

Sigyn

  • Level 15
  • *
  • Posts: 717
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Nonononono
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 06:02:27 PM »
Ew, ew, ew.  Let's not continue that conversation.
If I had any clue, would I be here?

Azhev

  • Level 5
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Wanderer of my own little world
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2008, 04:42:32 AM »
But it could open all sorts of possible conversations....
Ew, ew, ew. Let's not continue that conversation.

But it could open up all sorts of possible conversations.... ;D
"The ending of a book is, in my experience, both the best and the worst part to read.  For the ending will often decide whethet you love or hate the book."

-Alcatraz Smedry, Alcatraz Versus the Evil Librarians, p262

Insomnius

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I just wanted to thank you for helping - slight spoilers possibly
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2008, 04:05:25 PM »
I was sitting here laughing at the responses when my boss (who sits at the adjoining cubicle) pokes his head over to look at me bizarrely.

I welcome licks, bites, nibbles and nips but slobbering, slurping, sneezing and burping is verbotten.