Author Topic: Kelsier in Well of Ascension  (Read 2824 times)

Archon

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Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« on: October 06, 2007, 01:43:50 AM »
Ok, before I start, let me just say that I loved Well of Ascension. Just like the first Mistborn, which is just below LOTR as my favorite book, it pained me every time I had to put it down. Even though I had a hundred things to do to prepare for school, I still finished it in two days, because I was utterly engrossed.

That being said, a couple things really bothered me about this story as opposed to Mistborn. Most of them are little things, that I can't even remember right now. However, one keeps nagging at me, and I want to see what other people think about it.

It really bothers me how the others, and especially Vin, regard Kelsier, now that he is gone. For example, on page 261:
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So much for running away,Vin thought. However, she couldn't help smiling. Part of what she loved about Elend was his sincerity. His simple love for the people of Luthadel--his determination to do what was right for them--was what separated him from Kelsier. Even in martyrdom, Kelsier had displayed a hint of arrogance. He'd made certain that he would be remembered like few men who had ever lived.

But Elend--to him, ruling the Central Dominance wasn't about fame or glory. For the first time, completely and honestly, she decided something. Elend was a far better king than Kelsier would ever have been.
Does anyone else think that Vin is being a poor friend here? She implies that Kelsier did not love the people of Luthadel, even after all he did for them. Not only did he free them from the Lord Ruler, he gave them hope. He visited families, lightening spirits, bringing food. He gave them a symbol that they could rally around, so that they could help themselves. He would have fought an army to protect his skaa soldiers, had not Vin herself stopped him. True, he did make himself very well-known among the skaa as a result, but was it because of his ego? Personally, I don't think so. When he visited the skaa tenement in Luthadel with Vin, he told her that it was refreshing to actually visit the skaa, and give them hope. From that, you can see that he enjoys helping the people. He didn't have to do things like that to become famous. True, it helped him to form a bond with the people, but a lot of their reverence came from his capacity as a figurehead, and their awe of his feats, like killing an Inquisitor. Yet even though Kelsier was like a father to Vin, she assumes the worst of his intentions. And she always assumes the best of Elend's. She says he was determined to do what was right for the people of Luthadel, as opposed to Kelsier. However, Elend didn't do anything until he had the baton handed to him. While Elend attended balls and casually read his books, Kelsier was enacting a plan that eventually toppled the Final Empire, something that everyone else had thought impossible. Don't get me wrong, I know that Vin was in love with Elend. I don't blame her for thinking well of Elend. I do, however, think that dismissing Kelsier as being inferior to Elend is a betrayal not only of Kelsier, but also of his memory. I have a very hard time thinking well of Vin when she would discard a friend like that.
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He shook his arm free. "You still have some things to learn about friendship, Vin. I hope someday you realize what they are."
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 02:03:49 PM »
*cough*

*searches through the archives to find the large number of threads about teens talking crap about their parents and labels them "Exhibit A"

He visited all the families for the express purpose of having them think of him as a god. Sorry, but I can't see that as any other thing but ego. His inner motives, however, are unknowable, because they're never directly addressed. Kelsier was documented as stubborn, arrogant, and more than a little dismissive of entire categories of people. He worked from stereotypes and assumptions. He did great things, and maybe inside he truly did care for the Skaa -- though it seems to me there's more evidence that he did it as revenge for what happened to him and his wife. But none of that makes Vin remotely wrong. It doesn't make her any less grateful for what Kelsier did, it just means he was a showboat and a little self-centered

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 04:29:23 PM »
Just because Vin admits someone has better qualities than Kelsier in some areas of personality doesn't mean she's "discarding a friend." Admitting someone's faults doesn't become sacrosanct just because they're dead. She's being true to her memory of him, not betraying that memory.

But if Vin is actually wrong here, and Kelsier wasn't really as arrogant as he appeared to her, does that make her a horrible person to be thought less of? I don't think so. As readers, we saw inside Kelsier's head for many scenes in the book, which is something Vin could never do.

Also, another thing Brandon is saying here is that arrogance isn't necessarily a bad thing. He says it other places as well in the book. When arrogance is labeled self-confidence, it's considered healthy.
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Archon

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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2007, 10:55:43 PM »
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*searches through the archives to find the large number of threads about teens talking crap about their parents and labels them "Exhibit A"
I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying. If you want to discuss my character, then I would prefer not to do so here, out of respect for Brandon. If that's not what you are getting at, then I need you to explain.
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He visited all the families for the express purpose of having them think of him as a god. Sorry, but I can't see that as any other thing but ego. His inner motives, however, are unknowable, because they're never directly addressed.
On page 296, Kelsier is talking to Ham about Ham being a general and he thinks to himself:
"I know how you feel, my friend, Kelsier thought, I'm a thief, not a prophet. Sometimes, we just have to be what the job requires."
This is one of the reasons that I don't think it was his ego. He would rather have just been a thief, but he needs to be a prophet for this job to work. Even if you just think of it as pragmatism, it still isn't pride. Now, granted, this is a private thought, so the rest of the crew wouldn't know that was what he was thinking. However, later on page 486-490, the crew discovers the whole plan. They figure out that Kelsier knew that the skaa would have to rise up for anything to change in the Final Empire, and that the only way to get them to do that was to give them a new god, instead of the Lord Ruler. Even if you consider it simple pragmatism (which I would still argue against) it still means that he didn't do it for his pride.

Ookla, I agree with you on most of your points. I don't think that calling Kelsier arrogant is horrible of Vin. I don't even think that she is necessarily wrong. What gets me in that quotation is "Part of what she loved about Elend was his sincerity. His simple love for the people of Luthadel--his determination to do what was right for them--was what separated him from Kelsier."
I don't know how she can question Kelsier's determination to help the people of Luthadel when he was responsible for staging a revolution that everyone believed to be impossible. He sacrificed himself so that the people would have a symbol they could rally around.
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But if Vin is actually wrong here, and Kelsier wasn't really as arrogant as he appeared to her, does that make her a horrible person to be thought less of? I don't think so. As readers, we saw inside Kelsier's head for many scenes in the book, which is something Vin could never do.
I don't necessarily think that it makes Vin a horrible person. I do have a hard time liking her, though. I set a great deal of stock in friendship, and I think that you can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat their friends. True, she couldn't see into his head, but there are many instances where you can see the Kelsier cares for the skaa. As a matter of fact, I just found something interesting on page 450 of Mistborn.
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"He really does seem to care for them, Vin thought, watching Kelsier pick up a small child. I don't think it's just a show. This is how he is--he loves people, loves the skaa. But...it's more like the love of a parent for a child than it is like the love of a man for his equals.
She knows that Kelsier loves the people. So why would she think ill of him in this book?

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Also, another thing Brandon is saying here is that arrogance isn't necessarily a bad thing. He says it other places as well in the book. When arrogance is labeled self-confidence, it's considered healthy.
But the way she says it indicates that she thinks that Elend is a better king in part because he wasn't arrogant like Kelsier was. I agree that in other places in the book, it says that arrogance can be a good quality. But here, Vin seems to say that Elend is better because he is more humble.

Your mention of Brandon's intent makes me think that I might be perceived as criticizing him. If that is the case, then I apologize. I mean to discuss, not criticize.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 02:20:54 AM »
"Yet even though Kelsier was like a father to Vin, she assumes the worst of his intentions."

My point is only that all children do this, no matter how well intentioned those parents are. This is not a reason to think less of Vin. Only to acknowledge that she is as human as anyone, even Kelsier.

A single line of doubt hardly qualifies a contradiction of everything he does. Actions, as they say, speak much louder. Especially when those actions put him in front of everyone, intentionally, and make them worship him, intentionally. And when his motivations seem much more revenge oriented than freeing the skaa, even if he is glad that it's a nice side effect.

so yeah, I think Vin's spot on. Deluding herself that Kelsier is better than he was isn't Vin's character. She isn't disparaging him. She's merely acknowledging the truth, while on a completely different subject.

Archon

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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 12:39:44 AM »
Most children rebel against their parents because they think that their parents are being too restrictive. Typically, when this happens, it is because they aren't communicating very well. However, especially if you compare him to the other figures in her life, Kelsier wasn't an authoritarian. He was much more open and honest with Vin than anyone else had ever been. He wasn't bossy; most of the time he asked Vin if she was up for a task instead of telling her. Although he acted as a mentor to Vin, he was a friend too. You can tell that by the way she reacts to him in the first book. If he had been those things, she would have acted like she would around Reen or Camon, and just made herself as small and discrete as possible. Instead, in the first book, Vin thinks very highly of Kelsier.

As for Kelsier's intentions, there are a couple other incidences that make me think that it was about more than just egomania. On page 304 of Mistborn, Ham and Kelsier get into the same argument, essentially.
"So this is about your ego?" Ham snapped.
Kelsier shook his head. "Sometimes we need to do things that we find distasteful, Ham. My ego may be considerable, but this is about something else entirely."
Now, true, Kelsier could be simply lying. However, on page 366, when they are at the executions, he repeats himself, essentially, except this time, to the entire crew. And they believe him. The people who know him best believe in him, even though they know that Kelsier can scam well. If skeptics like Breeze, who knows social cues, body language, emotion, and such better than anyone believe him when he says that, then I would be inclined to believe too, especially in light of how angry he got at the sight of good people being killed.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

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Re: Kelsier in Well of Ascension
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2007, 01:18:35 PM »
so you're saying that he's *not* an authority figure? True, he's not "authoritarian" but he is almost inarguably the father figure for her. And he does say things she can and can't do, even if he's not big on discipline when she disobeys.

I don't think the one statement invalidates any of Vin's respect for Kelsier. It just shows why she couldn't be in love with him.