D&D 4th edition??

[Fellfrosch]

I can totally see them taking out leadership--they've complained about that feat for years.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

So I read the class roles article, and it essentially says "we stole the skill system from Guild Wars." Which is fine, because that's a great skill system, it's just kind of funny to hear them describe it so closely without coming right out and saying it. Note that I'm not referring to the "you only get 10 powers at once" part of Guild Wars, just the skills themselves.

The dragon fight is interesting, not so much for the vast number of attacks it gets, but because it doesn't use any of them to cast spells. Monster Manual 5 talked about how dragons had become giant spellcasters who happened to look like dragons, and didn't really "feel" like dragons anymore. This new guy definitely feels like a dragon, and that's one change I'm very glad to see.

The Dungeon design thing is also a welcome change--an equal number of monsters and PCs instead of the PCs ganging up on a single monster is rarer than it should be.

What is Guild Wars skill system like? Never played it.

[Spriggan]

It's like Diablo except you're attributes are class based and are more like the skill trees in diablo except you just don't get new skills for placing more points in them but skills based off them get better.  Skills themselves are learned independently and there are about 500 for each class but you can only have 8 slotted at a time and can only switch them out in towns.

[Fellfrosch]

Very little of which is what I was referring to, though.

The best way to describe it is the way Wizards did:

Weapons and how fighters use them provided a blueprint for their design. A skilled halberdier can hack a foe with his weapon’s blade and spin around to smash a second foe with the haft. A fighter with a longsword disarms her foe with a flick of her wrist, while a battle hungry axeman cleaves through shields, armor, and bone. The design for fighter maneuvers came down to looking at weapons, figuring out how a fighter could use one, and deciding on special effects that felt cool for the weapon and proved useful for the class.

So imagine that a fighter has a bunch of different abilities he can use, like weapon moves and special attack, that function like spells and depend on a specific weapon type. That's exactly how Guild Wars works and, apparently, D&D 4. The description of rogue abilities is dead-on as well:

A nimble rogue dives through the air to tumble past an ogre, while a charismatic one tricks an enemy into looking away just before she delivers a killing blow with her dagger.

Like Jordo said, GW skills are tied to an attribute, so depending on which attribute you focus on, certain skills get better.  The abilities in D&D 4 seem to follow a similar idea.

[Spriggan]

This is more class ability and feat related then you have Skill points in a weapon and thus can use X number of attacks.

[The Jade Knight]

Well, I'm not any sort of D&D fan, but I think 4th ed. will finally make D&D an interesting RPG.  I haven't boughten D&D since 2nd, but I've been following 3rd, and I think that 3rd started to fix some of the worst parts of D&D.  4th, from what I can gather, may fix them entirely—particularly the moronic magic system.  I will be interested in seeing how it pans out.  It also seems like characters will feel very super-powered/anime-ish.  It's as if D&D is discarding its last pretenses of any sort of reality/simulationist appeal and going for something outright fun.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out.  However, because of the 3rd in 2000 3.5th in 2003, I may not buy 4th out of trepidation.

D&D has need major fixing from the beginning.  From what I've heard about changes, 4th may finally get it right (though I'm still partial to WFRP).

[Spriggan]

http://icv2.com/articles/home/11618.html

Wizards is killing the D20 STL for 4th but keeping the OGL, I get a little confused between OGL and D20 STL myself but my understanding is that with 4th people will not be able to refrence wizards books, use their core classes, spells or feats.

[42]

I'm glad their keeping the OGL. Not so sure how closing the STL will impact things. I theorize that it might impact companies that make adventures the most.

[Eagle Prince]

http://icv2.com/articles/home/11618.html

Wizards is killing the D20 STL for 4th but keeping the OGL, I get a little confused between OGL and D20 STL myself but my understanding is that with 4th people will not be able to refrence wizards books, use their core classes, spells or feats.

Too early to tell exactly what it will be like, but the OGL is what lets you do whatever you want with whats in the SRD.  The d20 STL is an extra license on top of that so you can put the d20 logo on the cover of your books.  Using the STL in 3e meant you couldn't detail player creation rules in your book and stuff like that, but basically anyone who plays dnd will know that logo means its supposed to work with 3e, so more people will probably buy your book (or that was the idea anyway).  Something like Mutants and Masterminds uses only the OGL, so it can detail character creation rules and what-not.  Also from what I know, the OGL/SRD for 4th edition will be completely seperate from the 3e one; the 4e OGL will no doubt have at least a few changes, so its still a bit early to say what it will or won't allow, but I guess it will be largely the same.

[Fellfrosch]

The biggest hit from losing the STL will be Iron Kingdoms. Privateer is going to have to switch to OGL (which would be a major rewrite) or strike some kind of special deal with WotC.

[Spriggan]

I've actually heard talk, not true if it's accurate, that if Privateer keeps up the RPG they'll just create their own system.

But, on a similar note, what would prevent them from releasing 3.5 down the road?  I don't think Wizard's can retract the old license or even would bother doing so.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

if Privateer did that, I would give them my eternal love.

[Spriggan]

http://icv2.com/articles/home/11878.html

SRD and OGL release information

You can get it now for $5k (obviously intended for publishers) which has:
"The OGL Designer's Kit includes pre-publication versions of the 4th Edition Rulebooks (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual) as well as a pre-pub version of the System Reference Document (SRD), an Opening Gaming License (OGL), a License Guide, registration card, updated documents as the rules are finalized, and advance copies of all the finished core rulebooks.  "

 or wait until June 6th for the SRD to be posted free, OGL won't be free until next year (which means if you want to make a 4th edition book you have to pay up or wait a year), Wizard's says they're doing this to try and make sure 3rd party content is quality so gamers don't get burned.

[Eagle Prince]

There are some previews of the rules from DDXP.  Some of the stuff I noticed, there are no more full-round actions (or the full attack).  You get a standard action, move action, and minor action.  Minor actions include stuff like drawing a weapon or opening a door.  There are also free actions, these can now be taken at any time, not just on your turn (ie you can talk in-game even if its not your turn).  There is also still immediate actions, but they seem incorporated a bit more (ie readied actions use immediate actions).  Charge uses a standard action now, rather than a full-round (as those apparently don't exist anymore), but you only move up to your normal speed (instead of double).  You can also charge through difficult terrain.  The charge gives only a +1 to hit, but I think there is no longer an AC penalty.

A 5-foot step is no longer 'free', it takes your whole move action to make the 5-foot "shift" (as its called now).  I think elves get a racial ability that lets them move 10 feet when making a shift instead of just 5 feet.

You only use your 'standard' attack for opportunity attacks (attacks of opportunity, guess they wanted to shorten the wording);  the attacks you make on your turn instead use your at-will abilities, ie the rogue has one that is a lot like spring attack/shot on the run, and another one that lets him ignore armor.

Reach no longer automatically gives you more threatened squares, you also need a second ability called 'threatening reach' (or something like that).

Hit points are figured a bit different too.  Rogues, for example, start with 12 + Constitution score in HP, and get 5 per lvl (no dice or Con mod).  You get so many healing surges per day, rogue gets 6+ Con mod, I think fighter gets 9+ Con mod.  A healing surge heals you 1/4 your normal max HP and takes a 5 minute rest to do.  You can also, once per encounter as a standard action, use Second Wind, that lets you use a healing surge in combat.  Clerics can make your healing surges cure more damage, and I think let you do them more than once inside combat.

[Spriggan]

Some character sheets: http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/02/first-look-at-n.html