D&D 4th edition??

[stacer]

So... you're saying you're mad because you don't get free stuff anymore?

[Spriggan]

Because it's fun to pick on SE, why should they reward you for being "devoted"? you never bought any 3.x books.  At least Eagle has an argument there (as well as the organized play argument).

[Eagle Prince]

It's going to be *very* hard to get excited about a system, no matter how cool they make stuff, if 5.0 is going to come out in 2013.  And that's the precedent they're setting.

If you look at Magic the Gathering, a new edition of that is released every two years like clockwork.  So uh, yeah I'd say you are right that 4e will never last as long as 2e or 1e.  But they are planning on releasing a new PHB every year with 4e (and a new MM, but they already did that in 3e, and a new setting).  3e only had PHB and PHB2, so its hard to say what a PHB6 might look like, but the PHB2 had a few rules changes (like the polymorph errata and swift/immediate actions).  So maybe it will extend the life of 4e, but I wonder if you'll still be able to get the errata for free online.  If you are stuck buying every new PHB just for errata, the whole idea is kinda DOA.

[Spriggan]

Since it's still D20 I would assume either Wizards themselves or fans will have free conversion rules from 3.x to 4.x

[Eagle Prince]

I don't think Wizards will have conversion rules, they said it was too different to bother.  But fans will no doubt have conversions.  The OGL/SRD gives you a whole lot you can do with 3e, and 4e is supposed to be under the OGL too.  So in theory a fan could make a conversion document and even charge for it, but most likey someone will do up a good one for free.  But I doubt that someone will be WotC.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

So... you're saying you're mad because you don't get free stuff anymore?

No, I don't believe that's what I said at all.

edit: I was going to leave it at that, but I'm hurt by this comment. I thought better of you than that, Stacy. I know you work for Wizards, but I'm not criticizing your work or even your department. I wrote a single clause in one sentence about free stuff, basically saying why I'm more than willing to give up on D&D. That was hardly the central point of my post -- which was that with a new edition ever 3-5 years, I'm unwilling to stay involved with it. It may work for them, but not using me as a customer. Yes, I'm disappointed I don't get review material from Wizards anymore, but that hasn't stopped me from spending money on D&D, or on other games. I still have a large chunk of my spending budget for leisure. That budget just won't be spent on D&D products any more.

Because it's fun to pick on SE, why should they reward you for being "devoted"? you never bought any 3.x books. At least Eagle has an argument there (as well as the organized play argument).

*ignores*

[stacer]

I'm sorry the comment hurt you, but you did say it, and it felt rather odd that you'd include it--it felt like you were going through the laundry list, and 4th edition was the straw that broke the camel's back. And it may not be my department--and really, I don't pay that much attention to games--but the games side of things is actually part of my overall department (books is part of R&D).  And when you said that you wouldn't be willing to even read the press release or to find out what new stuff might be available, not to mention they didn't give you free stuff anymore, it kind of ticked me, because honestly, I'm tired of the "Wizards is a corporate monster" line--not just from you. I hear it all over. Certainly, it's a public company so there are rules and stuff that a lot of us have to abide by due to law than employees at smaller private companies have to deal with--I deal with that restriction on the publishing end of things, too. But I'm just tired of people thinking that the place I work is this big Evil Empire because really, it's no different than probably a lot of companies you guys work for.

ETA: I don't care whether you buy 4th ed. or not. Your perceptions etc. are your own. And I should have just stayed out of the conversation entirely the way I avoid pretty much anything that involves me having to choose my words so carefully because of restrictions that I have as someone who might be taken as a representative of a company. But I'm not speaking as a representative of a company right now. I'm just saying, it struck me as off.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

That's a gross oversimplification of my remarks, however. I did make a metaphor about it being a corporate monster, but that wasn't the reason I stated for not reading the press release. That, as I said, is because spending time on what they're doing with these new editions frustrates me. That is not directly connected to the size of Wizards. I should have elaborated on the connection, i suppose, since I *do* feel that being the massive force in the rpg industry is why they feel they can do things like this and ignore individual users -- they could go back to D&D and AD&D like they did in the old days, supporting two slightly different systems for the same game. But they choose not to.

In the end though, it's not a "size" thing. It's a business decisions thing. I don't like how they use a product I used to love. I'm sorry if you feel that means it reflects on you. In my personal opinion, I don't think it does, but I can see why the connection would be there. I wish I could discuss my feelings about D&D without that onus, I just don't know how to do that.

If it helps, D&D is pretty much the only Wizards product that annoys me now. I'm a huge fan of HeroScape now -- I find myself budgeting a large chunk of my spending on it each month. And the only reason I don't buy M:tG cards anymore is because I haven't actually played a game in over 2 years (I need someone to play with). The fiction I've read from their new lines has been consistently high quality -- if anything that's a major case in favor of the size of Wizards, since they wouldn't have pulled it off running like TSR used to. D&D is just frustrating for me. Now, if we extend it to all of Hasbro, I might get into some mystifying decisions with Marvel Legends and Star Wars action figures, but even there, I think that some of their toy lines are peerless in the industry (G.I. Joe Sigma 6, for example, and the new Transformers lines are very impressive).

Short form: my beef is with the decisions about D&D, not anything or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro, and I hope that you don't think I believe you're in a bad company. I'd love to work for them, though not on D&D products anymore.

[Aen Elderberry]

. . . and I hope that you don't think I believe you're in a bad company. I'd love to work for them, though not on D&D products anymore.

I hope the corporate culture hasn't changed since I visited in 2002.  We were in Washington on vacation and visited Renton, where I lived once upon a time.  I just had to visit.  Loved the dragon hanging in the stairwell.  The receptionist was awesome.  She gave my children free Harry Potter and Pokemon cards, let us look around, and was very nice.  I always interpret the way the receptionist acts as a sign of how the company operates.  Probably a bad generalization but that's my experience.  I got the feeling that they like to have fun.

I'd love to work for them as well.

I could spend every lunch hour sitting on the stairs looking up at that dragon.  (They've moved since then, haven't they?  But I assume the dragon is still hovering somewhere.)

[stacer]

The culture at work is still very fun, despite moving--across the street. Jokes about "why did the dragon cross the road?" were popular at the time. Sadly, Pam, the receptionist you probably talked to, just retired. Well, not sad for her--she's having fun! But sad for us because she really is awesome. But the other receptionists are great, too.

SE: truce.

[Prometheus]

Hi guys. Wow, the forums look different now. It's been a while I guess.

Went over the thread just for fun and I thought I'd post on the off-chance that it'll keep Stacer from having to agonize unnecessarily. If you haven't yet and have any interest in 4th edition, I'd recommend checking out the new D&D site at www.wizards.com/dnd --- especially the Design and Development articles after 8/16/2007. The website looks imposing at first glance, but it turns out that if you have a wizards.com login already, you can use the same one without having to register again.

Personally, I'm liking (almost) everything I see. The article on classes was great as it gave a peek at what the 4.0 Fighter might look like. It's a class that's needed fleshing out ever since the game was made, and it looks like it's getting something more than bonus feats finally. They also renamed the article on 'class roles' to 'power sources' which is what it's about anyway.

The article that impressed me the most was the sample fight with an ancient dragon. Throw out your own little internal rulebook when you read it, because the dragon breaks through rules barriers regularly. It takes two standard actions & a move action plus a few free action attack abilities on its own turn just for starters, and uses its breath weapon as an immediate action based on a certain trigger---the fact that it went below half health, I think. Keeping in mind that the dragon is an ancient dragon, however, I can't gripe at it's power. Ancient dragons should be that cool, and they're finally getting a way to deal with the fact that they only get to go once before 4-6 PCs go. In any event, the dragon in the sample fight gets to be far more involved than our typical 3.5 dragon. In 3.5, the dragon would probably either take a full attack or fly/breath weapon, which is pretty dull in comparison.

I'd also note the lack of any attack of opportunity reference (almost - there's one thing that could be an AoO but might not be). There isn't a reference to full attacks either, although that might be incidental...only the dragon ever had an opportunity to make one. The Cleric in the example fight also gets to do some healing while they fight, something that I'd like to see a lot more of.

I probably sound like a huge fan...maybe I am, but I like to think that I'm just waiting until 4th edition releases before I make a decision. The changes being made sound like a lot more than just the version upgrade we saw from 3.0 to 3.5 though, and from what I've seen so far it looks like they may be worth the pain of version update. Books are spendy, and it'll take an awfully big improvement for me to re-invest, but this might be enough. I'll find out as we go.

[Eagle Prince]

The dragon minis did about the same thing.  The black dragon is basically a 500 pt army by itself; it gets 6 activations per round, and for every 100 hp it's down, it loses an activation.  Their breath weapon and melee damage is quite a bit lower b/c of this too.  But in the rpg, you have 6 peope vs a solo dragon, then the dragon needs to do enough to make up for the fact that its 6 vs 1 (six actions vs one); its got to do a lot in that one action.  So you end up with a breath weapon that can knock the whole party down to 1/2 hp in one go.  Now if everyone made their save and the dragon got a 4 on its next breath weapon use, you are still in decent shape (only down 1/4 hp and have 3 rounds free from breath weapon).  But if everyone fails their save, and the dragon only gets a 1 on its next use, everyone better scatter or you'll end up with a TPK next round.  I don't know if giving solo monsters extra turns is the best way to handle it, but it is cleary a lot easier to balance (with one you end up easier on the extreme ends, with the other you end up more in the average range.  Similiar to the difference between rolling 1d12 and 2d6).

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I'm holding my opinion for the release of 4e, its still to early for me to get excited or upset about it. When 3E was first released I was on my ship checking every freaking bookstore every time I came in port and spazzing when It wasn't in. That said I am mildly concerned that once I buy 4E Wizards will have 4.5 out 3-4 years after I buy it.
I would also like to say that telling someone that they don't have to play it and can keep going on and playing 3.5 while kind of true overlooks the fact that the bulk of people playing are going to switch to 4E also its kind of mean and antagonistic. I don't see a lot of folks playing second edition D&D in Game Parlor or 1st edition GURPS or even Star Wars D6 (and most folks feel d6 star wars is a superior game). It cuts down on play options and frankly getting 3 new core books could be the make or break point for old gamers. Me, Im a little ticked that I spent a lot of cash on Ebberon and know that I wont be able to use those books with 4E. If 4e is like Saga Star Wars then I do think I want to play, and Im not looking forward to getting Ebberon again financially. I think this move was more for new gamers though, not for us Groganards, basically its a now everyone has to start at 3 books again respawn. 90 bucks is way more affordable for youngsters than 3-500 bucks.

[Fellfrosch]

So I read the class roles article, and it essentially says "we stole the skill system from Guild Wars." Which is fine, because that's a great skill system, it's just kind of funny to hear them describe it so closely without coming right out and saying it. Note that I'm not referring to the "you only get 10 powers at once" part of Guild Wars, just the skills themselves.

The dragon fight is interesting, not so much for the vast number of attacks it gets, but because it doesn't use any of them to cast spells. Monster Manual 5 talked about how dragons had become giant spellcasters who happened to look like dragons, and didn't really "feel" like dragons anymore. This new guy definitely feels like a dragon, and that's one change I'm very glad to see.

The Dungeon design thing is also a welcome change--an equal number of monsters and PCs instead of the PCs ganging up on a single monster is rarer than it should be.

[42]

The released design and development articles are interesting though I wonder how much what they say will change in the next few months. I know they are still asking people for opinions.

Things I've heard rumored to be on the chopping block:
Attacks of Opportunities (nearly certain to be going)
Turn Undead
Grapple
Spell Buffs
Power Attack
Summoning
Leadership