Author Topic: 10 flaws  (Read 3338 times)

vadia

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10 flaws
« on: March 28, 2007, 04:52:17 AM »
1 way to foreshadow is give a common ground and figure where people will be.  In some shows it's kinda forced like a hospital show where they are never in surgery when they need a line -- Sometimes REally forced Lois lane manages to get herself kidnapped again.  But because we know that they'll be in the hospital (or in Lois's case at the interview of the most whatever possible) it's not totally unbelievable. 

This can also be used positively -- such as in Daredevil when Matt Murdock always walks in on Karen and Foggy at the right time.  It's a cliche' but we love Daredevil for it.

Meetings need not be with pre-established characters.  I hate [prepare your stones] J.R.R tolkien because everybody that they meet either is enamored or hates the characters.  There aren't any towns in which they stop and have a beer and discuss plans and leave -- no, they find the super-hero-elf-who-you-must-love or the villianous whatnot.  Sometimes a path has to be a path.  It is also a problem with RPG's.

On the other hand, if the time frame is assumed to be somewhat longer than what you'd think, the characters in generally the same area, the reader can assume that he (gender neutral) will miss sections.  In one movie there is a scene which neglects communication lag -- I claim that there is a communication lag and those scenes of finger thrumming and scowling at each other are merely on the cutting-room floor.  [Maybe we'll see them in the DVD cut scenes part!].  Similarly we cut out the 15 reports the character in the hospital signed the 23rd sprained ankle and go straight to the slap in the face, which the viewer cared about.

dreamking47

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2007, 02:48:21 PM »
This flaw sounded like a variant on the magic idea to me: make sure your readers understand why a coincidence can happen before it does.

To expand on that, I tend to think that coincidences are useful in setup, but not resolution.  From what I have seen, a lot of readers, perhaps especially fantasy readers, like stories where some coincidence launches an adventure out of an otherwise normal life.  It adds a sense of possibility to our own lives.  But as Brandon wrote, once the adventure begins it's important that the characters begin to use their own abilities to guide the story.  A story that revolves around coincidence invariably ends up feeling like proselytizing either for the empty meaninglessness of the universe (if the coincidence is an unhelpful one) or the active hand of a God or Gods in the world (if the coincidence is a beneficial one).  Either may work in some cases, but rarely in a novel-length story for general readers.

MattD
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Fellfrosch

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2007, 03:15:32 PM »
That seems like a particularly odd criticism to level at Tolkien, vadia, considering that he spends more time describing the process of traveling and talking than any other fantasy writer. There's actually far more travelogue stuff in his books, especially Fellowship, than there is adventure. When it comes to "stopping and having a beer to discuss plans," well, consider Rivendell: far from a coincidental meeting of key characters who just happened to be there all at the same time, they had to call a special meeting and spend months hanging around and waiting for people to show up--and he describes most of that waiting around in pretty specific detail. Now, you're free to dislike Tolkien all you want, but "Sometimes a path has to be a path" is a complaint about him I absolutely don't buy. The "path" takes up about 70% of those books.
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dreamking47

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007, 03:36:03 PM »
To be fair, they gain a bunch of new allies in Rivendell, which I think is central to Vadia's complaint.  But I agree with your general point, there are plenty of places like the house of Tom Bombadil and Lorien where they do stop, take off their boots for a bit, make plans, and then continue on.  And there are plenty of encounters that start out decidedly neutral: the ents; the Riders of Rohan; Denethor; Faramir...

I think good writing is a continual balance of selecting details that both augment the story and make it believable to readers, while not including extraneous details that bog the story down.  Obviously different readers like and look for different levels of detail and different kinds of details, which is part of why different books all have their adherents.

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

vadia

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2007, 07:20:56 PM »
To be fair, they gain a bunch of new allies in Rivendell, which I think is central to Vadia's complaint.  But I agree with your general point, there are plenty of places like the house of Tom Bombadil and Lorien where they do stop, take off their boots for a bit, make plans, and then continue on.  And there are plenty of encounters that start out decidedly neutral: the ents; the Riders of Rohan; Denethor; Faramir...


I think good writing is a continual balance of selecting details that both augment the story and make it believable to readers, while not including extraneous details that bog the story down.  Obviously different readers like and look for different levels of detail and different kinds of details, which is part of why different books all have their adherents.

I meant a farm house in which they just rest there worried about the morn -- and nothing happens.  No, instead they meet Tom, who evidently in his corner of the world is fighting against Sauron, and then the decidedly neutrals all pick sides.  --Everybody they meet is either a big-shot or becomes a big-shot -- there are no farmers who just farm. 
Compare it with Elantris -- the maids are just maids, the begger, while he gives a vital piece of information is just a begger, even the main priest of Domi Isn't some mythical whatnot.  Each of them gets as much of a role as the original inhabitant from Elantris, who would be a mystical individual on some level, or Shoar. 

Even the "simple hobbits" become the war laden heroes and can all shoot like Robin of Luxley (on their bad days).

42

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007, 07:32:28 PM »
I meant a farm house in which they just rest there worried about the morn -- and nothing happens.  No, instead they meet Tom, who evidently in his corner of the world is fighting against Sauron, and then the decidedly neutrals all pick sides.  --Everybody they meet is either a big-shot or becomes a big-shot -- there are no farmers who just farm. 
Compare it with Elantris -- the maids are just maids, the begger, while he gives a vital piece of information is just a begger, even the main priest of Domi Isn't some mythical whatnot.  Each of them gets as much of a role as the original inhabitant from Elantris, who would be a mystical individual on some level, or Shoar. 

Even the "simple hobbits" become the war laden heroes and can all shoot like Robin of Luxley (on their bad days).

So you're upset that LotR doesn't have a strict social cast system?

As for EUOL's argument. From my perspective it isn't that having circumstantial events and resolutions is bad, a lot of life is circumstance. However, too much circumstance in a story is unsettling and leads to a feeling of entropy, which most people would rather avoid.
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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007, 08:42:23 PM »
You hit it right, 42.  The trick with most of these essays is timing.  These are all things that if you do them wrong, to much, or at the wrong time, you can pull readers out of your story.  If you do it right, however, it will help your narrative work better. 
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vadia

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 01:54:37 AM »
No, I'm upset that every character is tweaked out.

A hobbit who has lived on the farm his whole life shouldn't be a robin hood -- it's like your next door couch potato neighbors learning about boxing tomorrow and all of them contenders for the heavy weight champion next week -- it makes no sense.  But EVERY character in LOTR is an excellent fighter even after a life of presumably never having fought before in some cases.   There is no character who is "substandard."

The super uruks are something akin to jokes by the end of the second book and we essentially need demons similar ilk to fight the characters so that it would be interesting.  And then they only come when they are needed for the plot.  ARRGH!

Or so it feels to me.

on a side note I really hope that one of the flaws is generic evil and generic good.  -- I dare anyone to get me started on that one!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 01:57:39 AM by vadia »

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 02:11:53 PM »
A hobbit who has lived on the farm his whole life shouldn't be a robin hood -- it's like your next door couch potato neighbors learning about boxing tomorrow and all of them contenders for the heavy weight champion next week -- it makes no sense.  But EVERY character in LOTR is an excellent fighter even after a life of presumably never having fought before in some cases.   There is no character who is "substandard."
That's no an accurate portrayal of farm life. Especially in a frontier sort of situation. Farmers would also be hunters. Even if only out of boredom. If rock flinging is a typical hobbit past time, which I understand it is, there's no reason at all why these particular hobbits wouldn't be pretty good at it.

One of the main points of LotR is served by having the hobbits become fighters. Because they CHOOSE to get involved and participate, they become larger than life. Quibbling that they shouldn't be defeats the purpose of the novel. It's a novel about heroes. By choosing to be heroes, they gain the abilities of heroes. It would be a poorer novel if they *didn't* know how to fight.

Which is also reason why Tolkien's denouement is so much better than Jackson's. You can see the impact that their choices have made. Frodo and company are no longer typical hobbits. Not remotely. Pip and Merry are even taller  than other hobbits. They don't fit in. They have become something else.

dawncawley

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 06:51:08 PM »
The books are a bit, well more really, than the movies but that is to be expected, in my opinion. But I am with the confused when I hear the criticism about the journey and the fact that they can do what is expected of them, or required rather. I would like to think that the weaknesses that each shows throughout the journey, and overcoming said weaknesses, is what makes this a fantastic story about overcoming massive odds to do what had to be done to save yourself. And in the end it wasn't about saving Middle Earth, or the Shire, it was all about saving Frodo, at least for Sam. In that mountain, over that river of lava, when Frodo chooses the Ring instead of doing the right thing, it ceases to be about anyone but him, from Sam's point of view. If he can't save Frodo, I see him gladly throwing himself into the lava with him. That speaks volumes to me, not just about how they can fight, which I don't think they did particularly well really (how many times were they captured?), but about their spirit. That really makes a better story to me.

I do understand your point, I just disagree with it being made about this particular set of books.

Fellfrosch

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Re: 10 flaws
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2007, 12:12:57 AM »
So vadia, now you're complaining that random little nobodies can become great warriors? Like, um, Vin?

Your argument, if I may misrepresent it for a moment, seems to be that the Lord of the Rings has too many interesting things going on, and too much character development. Of course that's not what you're saying, but that's certainly how it's coming across: "Talk to more unimportant people! Do more boring things!" Ironically, Tolkien's books are brimming with unimportant people and boring events (like I said before, they spend most of it traveling).

I'm going to go with my original assessment, as restated by dawncawley: these are accurate complaints about certain books in the genre, but not these particular ones. I'm beginning to suspect one of two things: 1, you just hate Tolkien and want to complain about him, and 2, you're basing all of your complaints on the movies, and haven't actually read the books.

I reiterate that I am not defending Tolkien blindly against any and all critique--if you want to complain about him, do it. But complain about something he actually did, and that was actually bad, like his weak female characters and his incredibly slow travelogue and his horrible sense of pacing. When you start complaining about "the humble farmboy who becomes a great warrior and saves the world," well, Tolkien actually did that before it was a cliche, and he did it better than just about anybody else who's followed him.
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