Author Topic: Religion (Potentially sensitive)  (Read 33137 times)

dawncawley

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2007, 10:35:22 AM »
When put that way Hauf, and in terms an old gamer understood, you kind of did. Not that it is a bad thing, or totally off base. Let me see if I can articulate anything intelligent at this time of night.

God may know every scenario for every choice you ever make, but, by allowing you to choose, because really He does, he is allowing chaos, of a sort, to reign. If you pray for guidance for whatever decision you are praying for, and God gives you an answer of what he thinks would be the best route for you at that particular point in your life, you have the CHOICE of whether to follow his guidance, to misinterpret it, to ignore it, or simply to partially follow it. Free will is a form of chaos. He allows choices that most assuredly do not fit with the plan he may have for you and the Earth, thus allowing the creation of something he has minimal to no control over the forming of. Yet, He rules it with kid gloves and mercy when it is deserved. This, in my opinion, is a bit as Hauf stated, making God Chaotic Good.

Another way, sorry the first one seems off in a way, you ask your parents or friends, for their opinion about, lets use school it was given and it is relevant for me anyway. You hear what they have to say about what they think you should do, and why, but by asking for their guidance and opinions you haven't given up your personal choice. You are simply looking for more information or direction than you may have had yourself. How you use that information is still up to you, as is how you use the information He gives you in your prayers.

As for Satan, well, he wants everything just so, and done his way, to heck with what you may want, so I guess that makes him Lawful. The fact that the laws he wants followed are evil, basically makes him Lawful Evil, as Hauf has so kindly pointed out to us. ;)

Sorry if this is rambly and incoherent, it is the middle of the night, and I still have a little one who refuses to sleep at normal times of the day. Too bad he is three years old and active  ::)

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2007, 09:15:11 PM »
Awesome. That last post is the kind of thing I come to this forum for.
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dreamking47

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2007, 09:32:16 PM »
I was going to say, I'm not an LDS member, but if I understand the beliefs articulated in this thread correctly, what people are saying is that the world we live in is akin to a massively multiplayer online game (or environment, really) that you choose to enter not knowing what your starting point, race or stats will be; where you gain experience points by helping to make sure the game runs smoothly and maximizes everyone's enjoyment; with a DM/SysAdmin who prefers to let players work out issues themselves; and with the end result being that when you exit the game, you've learned something about yourself and hopefully are better prepared to deal with real life.  Is that about right?

MattD
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Skar

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2007, 10:57:08 PM »
Not bad DreamKing.  Would you like the missionaries to come by your house and teach you more?  ;)
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Chimera

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2007, 12:01:15 AM »
and with the end result being that when you exit the game, you've learned something about yourself and hopefully are better prepared to deal with real life.  Is that about right?

MattD

That's pretty much it, dreamking. Like EUOL and possibly others have mentioned before, we (members of the LDS Church) believe that life began BEFORE we came to earth. There are three parts--Premortal Life, Mortal Life, and Postmortal Life. God is our father and we are His children. We'd progressed as far as we could as spirits in the Premortal Life. So Earth was created as the next stage of our testing ground--a place where we could receive mortal bodies and prove ourselves SEPARATED from the direct presence of God, our Heavenly Father. We are preparing for the third and final stage--Postmortal Life, where we will have perfected, immortal bodies. As one scripture says in the Book of Mormon, "This life is the time to prepare to meet God." Thus, we believe that life continues after death, and that what we do while on earth directly affects what glory we receive in the next life. So we are, in a sense, preparing for "real life"--the glorious existence that comes in Postmortal Life. But that doesn't by any means negate the reality or importance of this life. Mortal life is filled with pain and joy, but you use your agency/free will to follow God's commandments and live the best life possible, perfecting yourself and helping others.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2007, 11:12:36 PM »
Quote
you choose to enter not knowing what your starting point, race or stats will be
Actually--we often hear that each of us knew full well what we'd be getting into before we were born, more or less specifically.  But I'm not sure of the doctrinal status of that, and it may just be a popular interpretation.

The DM/SysAdmin does leave a lot of clues. And while I said the post above about him being Chaotic Good was awesome, that doesn't mean I actually agree completely. He does use a rulebook--we believe everything he does is according to some law--though only those laws which we're supposed to follow while "in the game" are relevant to figure out. We're only required to follow the rules we know about; ignorance of the law IS an excuse, but everyone is also given common sense/a conscience ("The Light of Christ") that ignoring is a bad idea. And though we won't be punished for breaking rules we don't know about, they come with their natural consequences that may be detrimental without being punishments per se.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2007, 04:24:28 PM »
Quote
you choose to enter not knowing what your starting point, race or stats will be
Actually--we often hear that each of us knew full well what we'd be getting into before we were born, more or less specifically. But I'm not sure of the doctrinal status of that, and it may just be a popular interpretation.
Hrm... I have *not* often heard that. In fact, this may be the first time I've heard it suggested seriously. Usually I don't hear any comments about it.

dawncawley

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2007, 06:39:07 PM »
Since this is something that I have heard, I will chime in. The specific that I hear, though I do not know if it is doctrine or just something that my dad, who is an LDS member, believes, is that we do have knowledge of what we are coming into, but that knowledge is not carried over once we arrive. So, you do know your stats/race and starting knowledge, but choose to come anyway, knowing that the knowledge that you have before you come you will not have once you are here. Does that make sense? It sounds garbled and jumbled to me, but I hope it helps.

WOWKING32

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2007, 09:05:43 PM »
Isn't it extremely pessimistic to say that life as we know it is just an experiment, or even that we knew what our lives were going to be like before we chose them.  These two ideas are very difficult with the idea that Christ came to earth to save humanity.  Why would he even bother dying and going through what he did if we just came here to expreience the pain of life.  That in itself seems to suggest that Christ's suffering was for naught, which goes against Chrsitianity.  The second idea, that we knew of our life before we came to earth is also very difficult, because of how much pain some people have to go through.  I hate the idea that someone can spend their life looking for God through the greatest pains and difficulties life can offer, then because they were not a part of one minor religion of the world, that they didn't even encounter during their time on earth.  This idea that people know how their lives are going to be also suggests that people know the "stuff" that they have to go through before they are born.  That doesn;t make sense to me either, because of how much different people's lives are earth are.  In the United States it is easy for us not to see the pain that people have to go through on a regular basis.  I'm just curious what the response to these questions would be, because a lot of this stuff doesn;t make sense to me as a progressive catholic

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2007, 03:38:40 PM »
I don't think you've accurately stated the LDS position. This life isn't "just an experiment." It is a test and a trial, and it's a chance for development -- to become better than we were before this life. Given that, the Atonement of Christ becomes extremely meaningful.
And as for " hate the idea that someone can spend their life looking for God through the greatest pains and difficulties life can offer, then because they were not a part of one minor religion of the world, that they didn't even encounter during their time on earth. " That is a concern that the LDS religion has a unique answer for, and frankly, the only solution I've heard that is even vaguely satisfying. People are accountable for the truth they know. If they have never heard of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, than God could hardly be just if he held them responsible for not participating in the ordinances or community of that body.  So he doesn't. In the after-life, these people are given opportunity to learn about the Gospel. If they lived according to the light they had in life, than it follows that they will likely accept the gospel when they understand it.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2007, 11:36:46 PM »
It's definitely not an experiment or a dry run. This life is the only shot we get to live by faith without a sure knowledge of God because we can't remember standing in front of him--which was not the case before we were born (i.e. he was right there, we saw him all the time), and won't be the case after judgment (even those who aren't found worthy to be with him all the time will remember judgment day). "The day of this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God," one of our scriptures says.  (Though God is the judge whether people have really have had a fair shake during this life, and those who haven't will have more chances after death but before the ressurrection & judgment, as described to some extent above--but to the extent that you HAVE had a fair chance during this life you'll be judged as that having been your chance.)

Christ is still the only one with the power to take away sin through his atonement--and since no one is perfect here on Earth, and we all make mistakes, Christ is essential to our making it back to our Father.
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WOWKING32

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2007, 06:50:14 AM »
so LDS has a really complicated version of heaven that is pretty defined is kind of what I am hearing from this.  Personally what I believe is that there are different ways to get to know God during your life, no matter what religion you are, that if you live your life according to moral decisions and try to help other people in their suffering, than you are helping God love to spread throughout the world, therefore helping those less fortunate than we are.  The way I look at it, Jesus and God don't care what religion you are, that if you are trying to make the world a better place than you are trying to get closer to God's love.  Just saying how I feel. 

The Jade Knight

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2007, 09:11:10 AM »
Well, I'm of the opinion that God appreciates everything we do to serve mankind.  There are scriptures which state that serving others is simply serving God.  Regardless of your religion, good is good and love (charity) is love.

At the same time, it's pretty hard for Christians to get around John 14:6 ("No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.")

If you don't believe in the Bible, however, that's not much of an issue to begin with.
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Drakogy

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2008, 09:16:03 AM »
I am aware that this thread has been forgotten for quite some time but I do have points that I want you all to consider. I may sound harsh and stubborn but I want to propose certain questions and answers to the LDS faith. There is much to cover but please be patient and I will try to answer your questions rationally.

Does God's Omniscience Eliminate Free-Will?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbZqByqy5To
I may refer to Prof. William Craig in the future.

 I agree that we all have Free will. I also agree that it was our choice to eat from the forbidden tree. I do not however agree with the LDS view of pre life. There is no mention of this in the Bible anywhere. It is only through the publications of John Smith that changes the word of GOD.

First of all why would GOD show this to one person instead of a multitude? The accounts of Jesus Christ are written by multiple witnesses. Any error would be corrected by those who witnessed Jesus' resurrection. So how does a single person born about 2000 years afterward  have the right to change GOD's word? Since GOD is all knowing why would he change it? You may say it is a test but it is already a test. To listen and believe the original word of GOD. The authors of the New Testament wrote so that you too may believe.(From all NT manuscripts only 99.5% has error between them) 

Life is not about good works. It is only through trust in Jesus that we are saved. He has restored our relationship with GOD by becoming one of us and paying for all of our sins. It is because of what he did for us is why we do good deeds, out of love and gratitude so that those who see the kindness in our hearts may believe.

I will stop here for now. Please forgive me if there are any typing errors in my writting.
Thank You
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Skar

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2008, 05:08:12 PM »
Pre Earth Life: "5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Quote
First of all why would GOD show this to one person instead of a multitude? The accounts of Jesus Christ are written by multiple witnesses. Any error would be corrected by those who witnessed Jesus' resurrection.

First, you're reasoning about why God would not reveal himself to only one person eliminates quite a few prophets, including Moses.  And second, God has spoken to me, personally, through the spirit, testifying of the truth of JOSEPH Smith's revelations and teachings, as well as to the truth of the Book of Mormon and the status of the modern day prophets of our church.  The same is true of many millions of Mormons, so he HAS revealed the truth to multitudes. If you'll take the time to research the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you'll also discover that Angels and Christ himself appeared to more people than Joseph Smith during the early years of the church.

Quote
So how does a single person born about 2000 years afterward  have the right to change GOD's word? Since GOD is all knowing why would he change it? 

This statement seems to imply that you don't know about the council of Nicaea 1 and 2, both of which changed what is considered "the word of God" today.  Beyond that it also implies that you are unaware that the New Testament itself was not assembled into a coherent book until hundreds of years after the events described.  And then, of course, we have this:

Paul on the road to Damascus
Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

Quote
Life is not about good works. It is only through trust in Jesus that we are saved.
James 2:
"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? "

And then there's the following combination:
John 17:3
"3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. "
1 John 2:4
"4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. "

All this comes down to one concept.  Blind faith in any creed or doctrine is not what God wants from us.  What he wants is for us to come to him as best we can.  Pray to him, seek truth, and obey the promptings of his spirit and you'll be fine in the next life.  If the promptings of God's spirit really direct you to attack other Christians over points of doctrine, more power to you, have at.
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

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