Author Topic: Religion (Potentially sensitive)  (Read 34358 times)

MsFish

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2007, 09:13:25 AM »
Thanks for your response, A.  I thought of a few more things that I didn't mention in my earlier post, things I was dancing around but didn't actually say. 

I think the danger in the nature/nurture debate comes not from the debate itself but from the political work it is used to day.  It seems many people (certainly not all) who say that homosexuality is completely inborn add the corollary, "therefore people have no choice about engaging in homosexual activity".  I am leery of any argument that says people don't have choices, because I think people have choices in almost all situations.  They may not like the options, but they are there none the less.  On the other hand, saying that homosexuality is entirely a choice or based on environmental concerns comes with the corollary "therefore, people should just not be gay", which in my opinion is not really a rational or helpful argument, much less one that is a reflection of people's actual lived experience. 

And in response to what you said about depression, it might be interesting to note that, while I have depression, medication doesn't cure it.  Years and years of reprogramming cognitive behavior has  helped a ton, but my depression is caused by much more than the  chemicals in my brain.  It is my belief that most things are this way: we become the way we are because of a delicate and complicated interplay between our genetic makeup, our experiences, and our own choices.  But how much comes from which source is impossible to determine, scientifically or otherwise, with our current code of ethics in place.  What we need to be careful of is what political work we're doing with the statements we make about the way other people naturally are, want to be, choose to be, or any combination of the three.  Perhaps we need to be even more careful to make sure we agree with the political work that's being done by the voices we're aligning ourselves with.  I certainly don't want to align myself with voices that deny personal choice, whether they be pro or anti homosexuality, as I think there are voices on each side of the line that want to say that people don't (or shouldn't) choose the way they run their lives.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 09:17:09 AM by MsFish »
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The Lost One

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2007, 05:12:44 PM »
Quote
Posted on: Yesterday at 11:55:56 PMPosted by: Armadius
The Lost 24 - The professor you mention is, as far as I know, mistaken. There is no evidence to suggest that social acceptance of homosexuality will cause an increase in the number of homosexuals. In fact, just to bring this back a little bit toward Brandon, I made the connection between homosexuality and the Shaod when I first read Elantris; both "strike" at random, regardless of one's station. Gay parents are no more likely to raise gay children than straight parents are; in fact, the first gay children must, quite obviously, have come from a straight couple.

Thank you for your response. I felt that professor was mistaken about many things however, as far as homosexuality striking at random, I agree. But with all due respect, the problem with social acceptance is that instead of helping those individuals who want to overcome sexual tendencies, they are forced to accept their homosexual tendencies. I believe that there are people with homosexual tendencies that can overcome them through support and counselling. I believe that a person does not have to be a homosexual. However, the current trend seems to be to encourage homosexual behavior rather than to provide help to those who want to overcome their homosexual tendencies.

In addition, your comments about the world being overpopulated is what I call a Malthusian Myth (Thomas Malthus was the economist who first predicted that the world would run out of food, off course, he thought that mass starvation would have occurred over two-hundred years ago). The world has plenty of resources and technology continues to improve how those resources can be used. Besides, a fertility rate of 2.1 is required to maintained a population and in places like Europe, Japan and China, the failure to maintain their populations is causing sever problems (such as too many senior citizens and not enough younger workers). Simply being a sperm donor or being fertile is not the same as actually have children.

As far as, HIV/AIDS, your numbers still do not change the fact that HIV/AIDS predominately afflicts homosexual. Now you have understated your numbers a little bit (the 2005 CDC study can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/At-A-Glance.htm), but that is beside the point. For what you claim is an activity that occurs behind close doors that doesn't affect anyone else, society has spent billions of dollars in government programs and research trying to find a "cure" for a disease that primarily afflict homosexuals. Although there has been significant spin-off research from studying HIV/AIDS, the funding for HIV/AIDS has stripped funding for research of diseases like heart disease (which afflicts a much larger portion of America).

In addition, I think Dragonfly's comment show that there is definitely an impact to families dealing with homosexuality. I've now quite a few families that have struggled when one member of the family turn towards a homosexual lifestyle.

In a society with limited resources, there is always trade-offs, and claiming that an activity that occurs behind close doors doesn't affect others well-beings is inaccurate. It not that I'm afraid that I will personally get HIV or AIDS, however, homosexuality has a significant social, political and economic toll.  Homosexuality is a social, political and economic issue and not merely a private matter.

I'm sorry if you take offense to my comments and I must say that I respect and appreciate your comments. I do believe, however, that there is more to consider in discussing homosexuality than just religious positions on the matter.

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Armadius

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2007, 02:59:47 AM »
MsFish - I wish I had more to say, other than thanks, and I agree for the most part.

24 - Alright... there are so many things wrong with what you just said that I don't know where to start. How about the beginning?

Yes, there are people who want to change, and arguably people who can. But would you mind explaining to me how on Earth a broadening social acceptance of homosexuality keeps people who do want to change from doing so? Acceptance isn't the same as encouragement. People who want to change will still be free to do so. Homosexuality isn't some oppressive regime that's trying to spread malignant influence. Acceptance would make my life easier, not Brandon's cousin's life more difficult.

Also, do you deny that the world is headed for the greatest energy crisis humankind has ever known? We're running out of oil, which is used to produce and operate the technology you claim can improve how we use resources that it turns out we don't even have. Besides, citing Malthus' error does not simply wave away the fact that we have a serious overpopulation problem. You speak of maintaining a population, but doing so perpetuates a major problem. You think that a population drop will make us less competitive, economically speaking? Try having an economy founded entirely upon a fuel source that's no longer available. Also, how is China having difficulty maintaining its population? It's the most overpopulated country in the world. My point about fertility and sperm donation was that gays do, indeed, contribute to the population. Your claim that they do not is unfounded.

As for HIV/AIDS, how dare you belittle such a pandemic? Yes, it does predominantly affect homosexuals - IN THE UNITED STATES. What about those in Africa, where AIDS is most prolific, who are experiencing a pandemic the likes of which you've probably never even imagined? You can bet most of them are not gay. It's unconscionable that you would try to use something as serious as AIDS as an argument for why homosexuality is wrong. This is all irrelevant, anyway, because the spread of STD's is easily avoided when proper precautions are observed.

But as long as we're going the route of diseases, what about everything spread by straight people? You keep bringing up heart disease, which you blame on genetics. Where do you think most genetic diseases come from? Not gays, whom you maintain can't reproduce. What does that leave? Straight people. I could use your own argument to suggest quite strongly that heterosexuality is a harmful behavior to society.

Also, Dragonfly's comment does indeed say that there's an effect on families coping with homosexuality. Did I ever say there wasn't? My own family went through something similar when I first came out to them. I think I've made it very clear that these are trials that ultimately benefit a family.

Furthermore, do you realize that you've gone from saying our society isn't experiencing a shortage of resources to saying we're a society with limited resources in a matter of three paragraphs? As well, telling me I'm wrong does little in the way of convincing me. You say homosexual practice is a significant matter that does affect you. How?

Also, the title implies that I'm talking about the religious implications of homosexuality; I never intended for this thread to stray so far off-topic. I do find your remarks offensive; I'm biting my tongue to keep back so many sarcastic, unkind comments right now. I didn't start this in an effort to get validation; I don't want to debate whether or not my sexuality is moral. I was only asking about the church's stance on the issue. As such, unless someone can steer the conversation back to where it came from, I don't think it has any place on this forum, and I won't be saying anything more.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 03:36:07 AM by Armadius »
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2007, 06:37:13 AM »
It's hardly an established fact that the world is overpopulated. There are areas of the world that are overpopulated, yes, but the world as a whole is not. The population is poorly distributed, and the resources are often poorly distributed, but there are plenty of uninhabited places in this country alone where people could live—driving cross-country will tell you that. If people would move there instead of wanting to live in the areas that make good farmland, resources could be spread around much better. The history of civilization is the history of developing infrastructures for resource allocation, and as needs arise ways to meet those needs will also arise. Now, there are areas of the world where good infrastructure has difficulty taking hold, but that's a political and cultural issue not directly tied to population numbers.

But anyway, I don't think population sustainability is significantly affected by this thread's secondary subject. And I can't think of anything about the Church's stance on this issue that hasn't already been said here.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 06:44:11 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2007, 02:43:24 PM »
The book is not written for professionals in the field, but for people trying to cope with behavioral problems (particularly addictive ones) and want to find better ways of understanding. There are three primary examples, only one of which is sexual in nature (the other two are an eating disorder and drug addiction). I forgot to look at the author over the weekend. I will try to remember tonight or tomorrow.

Also, do you deny that the world is headed for the greatest energy crisis humankind has ever known? We're running out of oil, which is used to produce and operate the technology you claim can improve how we use resources that it turns out we don't even have. Besides, citing Malthus' error does not simply wave away the fact that we have a serious overpopulation problem. You speak of maintaining a population, but doing so perpetuates a major problem. You think that a population drop will make us less competitive, economically speaking? Try having an economy founded entirely upon a fuel source that's no longer available. Also, how is China having difficulty maintaining its population? It's the most overpopulated country in the world. My point about fertility and sperm donation was that gays do, indeed, contribute to the population. Your claim that they do not is unfounded.
I do. This prediction has been made by many, many more people. It has come true approximately the same number of times that predictions about the Second Coming of Christ have. ie, 0. 40 years ago we were told we had about 30 years. Well... that didn't pan out did it?

It's an economic fact that there are problems that accompany a drop in reproduction rate. A smaller portion of the population contributes to production, thus supply decreases, raising inflation. This can be quite severe over a long period of time.

The gay contribution to the population exists, true, but at a significantly lower rate than heterosexual contribution.

As for a loss of fossil fuels, yes, there's a finite amount. But there are already replacements being developed and there's insufficient evidence that we are very near a true oil shortage. Did you know there are *vast* reserves of oil? Saudi oil barons are fond of saying that when the last barrel of oil is pulled fromt he ground, it will not be the last barrel of oil in Arabia. They have looked to their own economic welfare (how they treat the poor is another matter) and made sure that when the day comes that they can no longer produce oil, they will still have plenty to sell.

As for HIV/AIDS, how dare you belittle such a pandemic?
I didn't feel it was belittled. I think you are being much too aggressive.  Lost 24 didn't say anything that was anti-gay. He simply brought up very real concerns that should be addressed. Whether the implied conclusion is correct, maybe not. But that doesn't mean the issue should be brushed aside because it "belittles" something.

But as long as we're going the route of diseases, what about everything spread by straight people? You keep bringing up heart disease, which you blame on genetics. Where do you think most genetic diseases come from? Not gays, whom you maintain can't reproduce. What does that leave? Straight people. I could use your own argument to suggest quite strongly that heterosexuality is a harmful behavior to society.
The comparison does not hold. His point is not about gays spreading disease, it's about how the spread of the disease spreads resources that could be used for other purposes. A society *must* reproduce to survive. Thus genetic problems are an absolutely necessary complication if we want to continue the society. This overrides any other concerns.

Furthermore, do you realize that you've gone from saying our society isn't experiencing a shortage of resources to saying we're a society with limited resources in a matter of three paragraphs? As well, telling me I'm wrong does little in the way of convincing me. You say homosexual practice is a significant matter that does affect you. How?[/url]
1) he went from saying we aren't experiencing a shortage of *natural* resources to an insufficient set of resources for curing epidemics. These are significantly different, and your deliberate confusion of the two doesn't help. If we want to discuss this intelligently, we need to argue the facts, not confusions.
2) Both of his posts went into a lot of detail about how homosexuality affects the general populace.

You've also said that acceptance does not mean encouragement. But in a way it does. For good or ill, an accepted behavior will be come more prominent, because there is nothing to DIScourage it.

Robert_Boyd

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2007, 06:36:26 PM »
Personally, the way I look at the whole genetics/upbringing issue is to look at singing.  Yeah, some people have a natural talent.  However, anyone can choose to take active steps towards improving their singing by practicing, hiring experience singing coaches, etc.  Likewise, our genetics and upbringing results in us having various attributes, some desirable and some undesirable, but it's a personal decision whether or not we chose to develop those those attributes we find desirable and fight against those attributes we find undesirable or just do what comes easy.

As for the whole love thing, despite what popular media may tell us, love is a verb.  Whether or not you decide to love someone can be an active decision.  Jesus taught us to love our enemies; obviously if love is something that just happens to us this commandment would be impossible.  To give a few examples:

I spent 2 years as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Taiwan.  Now there is a rule that says that missionaries can't date while they're serving a mission.  So for 2 years, dating was out of the question for me.  Now during those 2 years, I saw individuals who under normal circumstances I would have enjoyed dating.  However, because I knew that was impossible without breaking rules, I made a conscious decision to not to fall in romantic love with anyone.  And you know what?  It worked.  Likewise, a husband or a wife can make a conscious decision not to fall in love with anyone aside from their spouse and if they truly mean it, they won't.  They may look at an individual, think for a second that they're attractive, and that's as far and as long as it goes, because they've made a conscious choice to act and think in that manner.

I read in a book recently about a man who said that he was no longer in love with his wife and so he went to a psychologist for advice.  The advice given?  "Love her."  The man argued that since that was precisely the problem, how could he love her?  The psychologist then explained that feelings of love naturally arise when we do acts of love.  Simply put, the verb love leads to the noun love.  If you don't have feelings of love for your wife, then do more acts of love for her (listen to her, talk to her, do nice things for her) and the feelings of love will naturally follow.

I think the main thing I want to get across here is that one of the fundamental beliefs of the LDS religion is that people are free to chose their actions.  There are many things in life that we have no control over, however we're always free to chose how we respond to events that happen to us.  Not only are we free to chose our actions, but we are also free to chose how we think as well; not perfectly perhaps, but when a thought comes to us, we are free to dwell on that thought or to banish it.  Yes, homosexuality may have a genetic aspect to it that makes it easier for some individuals to be homosexual, but even in those cases, the individuals still have freedom to decide whether or not they wish to dwell on those homosexual thoughts and act on those thoughts or whether they won't.  Aside from the seriously handicapped (I'm thinking vegetables here), everyone is responsible for their own thoughts and actions.

Sigyn

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2007, 09:20:29 PM »
Huh.  We've gone from being a discussion about religion to mainly a discussion about homosexuality. The LDS Church has specific views on homosexuality: don't practice it. That about sums it up. If you do, then you are choosing to no longer be a member of good standing. That is an individual's choice. As Armadius is not a member of the LDS Church, his views and actions are not going to be dictated by it. I don't think anyone needs to be offended by what other people are saying on this thread because I don't think people are trying to be offensive.  It seems to me that they are trying to bring up alternative ideas which may or may not be correct but which are out there and are believed by a large number of people.  I think Armadius is wrong.  I'm sure he thinks I'm wrong too.  But I'm glad that we are able to have this discussion and at least come to understand each other's views better.  It may not change what we think but I hope it will make us at least more aware of the issues.

So many people have stereotypical views.  This appllies to both homosexuality and the LDS Church. It makes me glad that people on this forum are at least trying to overcome some of those views and gain a greater understanding.  The LDS Church really values knowledge, and that means knowledge of everything (though that doesn't imply first-hand experience knowledge).  Brigham Young, an early LDS prophet, said that it was important for the LDS people to know about good and bad.  The more knowledge we have, the more ground we have to base our opinions on. One of the things I try to do as a writer is explore different ideas both because this is interesting to me and because I hope it helps me understand these ideas better. On the other hand, there are issues that interest my husband that don't interest me which makes it difficult for us to have discussions about it (like last night he wanted to discuss the ideas of when a spirit enters a human body: at conception? at birth? sometime in the womb? This wasn't something I wanted to talk about at all because I didn't think discussion would help us come to any answers and because, having had babies, I don't like talking about what happens to stillborns.  It makes me too sad!).  Maybe this is why I don't write Mormon fiction.  I think I've gone off the point.

It seems to me that a lot of people think the LDS are insular and not willing to discuss doctrine.  This forum should make it obvious that isn't the case, though there are individuals this way.  That's probably true of any group. I know I have the choice to follow my religion and its tenets or to not.  I don't follow blindly, and I don't think most of the people I know follow blindly either.  We want to learn and we want to know more, though not everyone is open to everything.

Armadius, are there any other questions you have about the LDS religion?  Perhaps if you can state them specifically, we can bring this thread a bit more on topic.

(And totally off topic, if you really think the world has a population problem then visit southern Utah. The problem is, no one wants to live there.  People want to live in places like New York and San Francisco where there is a lot to do and a lot to see which may be why people who live in such places have such an easy time believing in world over-population. Sorry.)
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Aen Elderberry

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2007, 02:06:05 AM »
2)  What about all the people who aren't of your religion?  They go to hell because they happened to live at the wrong time, when there were no missionaries to teach them?

<snip>

So, no.  I don't believe that good people who never accepted LDS teachings will go to hell.  Will mother Teresa go to Hell?  Of course not.  I well nigh think that things will be better for her in the eternities than they might be for me, unless I shape up. 

:) I think she'll be better off than most of us mormons. 

I thought I'd go back to one of EUOL's earlier points.  I thought that President Boyd K. Packer's recent comments while introducing a respected Muslim and Indonesian government leader, Alwi Shihab, relates to this conversation.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=11324&x=56&y=3

Among other things he says:

We believe that "the great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals." ("Statement of the First Presidency regarding God's Love for All Mankind," February 15, 1978)

It may sound a bit condescending to say "all those other folks have part of the truth" but we would be following one of them if we didn't think we had at least a bit more.   But even saying that we claim to have "at least a bit more" is, I think, not quite accurate.  It's more a matter of what is most important and relevant to our current situation.   Seems to me that any system suffers the inevitable effects of entropy and thus the LDS emphasis on continuing revelation to wind us up again and give us the frequently needed course corrections.

Also this address is interesting:  President Faust talks about  "What Makes Our Religion Different?"  http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-1110-1,00.html

And this one:   World Religions (Non-Christian) and Mormonism   -  http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=202

From the Book of Mormon:  "the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil."  (Moroni 7:16)

We claim no monopoly on its guidance.  Everyone has it.  We claim more direct guidance as well, but basically everyone on earth is entitled to God's guidance.
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precious-jules

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2007, 04:34:31 AM »
Quote
but the simple fact is that we live in an overpopulated country on an overpopulated planet


Actually not entirely accurate. You believe this because you live in Massachusetts. ;)  Drive from your home to the west coast and try telling me the world is overpopulated. I made that trip when I was eighteen and moving to Northboro, MA from Utah. I will spare you the same miserable trip and give you statistical information. If you took every single man woman and child on the earth today and gave them each individually an acre of land, they would fit within the North American continent with  room to spare. The North American Continent is only 16% of the land mass of the world. The world is full and there is enough in resources to support a growing population for many thousands of years. Even landfill sites are reclaimed by the earth and magically transformed into useful land. Never underestimate a world that works.

As far as the rest of the conversation, I enjoy the debate without the mud slinging. I appreciate how diverse the conversation remains without getting ugly. My brother is/was? gay. He brought home his boyfriends all that during his teenage years and into his adulthood. He is now almost forty. We were not raised in a religious home, so that never came into play. I am a Mormon, but I'm a convert so my upbringing is a little different. God was only mentioned in my house when Dad hit his thumb with a hammer. I appreciated Brandon's thoughts on Why Mormonism.  My conversion was one of all those things mentioned: Logic, feelings, common sense, resonance . . . but there were tangible aspects to my conversion as well. 

As an interesting aside, my brother has a girlfriend now. None of us have any idea what happened with the girlfriend, we're entirely baffled by her presence, but we all know he "became" gay, ,he had no prior tendencies . . . he readily admits this. He was on drugs as an early teen. His supplier was an older man who traded drugs for favors, and Robert become caught up in a lifestyle. 

the nurture/nature issue is interesting to me based on his experiences and so I've enjoyed this thread. I personally believe (which means nothing to anyone but me) that we've each been given our weaknesses. I think a lot of our happiness in this world depends upon how we choose to act upon those weaknesses. I come up pretty poorly some days, but i'm hoping to ultimately overcome all my weaknesses. I think the people who experience the most joy are those who manage to gain full control over themselves.  I shudder when I think on the girl I might have been, had it not been for a little self mastery when my weaknesses bared their ugly teeth. I shudder further still at the times I gave in to them.
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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2007, 01:28:56 PM »
Time for a new perspective.

[Disclaimer:  My intention is not to offend anyone, just to add a new perspective.  That said, some of this could easily come across as offensive, particularly my insouciant way of talking about sensitive subjects.  If you don't like what I have to say, feel free to ignore it—at the cost of your own potential ignorance.  If you just don't like my tone, please forgive me and laugh.  Really, I have a dry sense of humour…]

I'm a history student, so that's my specialty.  I've read several books on the History of the Family, because it interests me.  I love social and cultural history… anyway, enough intro.

Your discussion ignores millenia of history.  Let me explain:

Marriage, for most of history (= the written past), and presumably for ALL of prehistory (which is quite a long time for those who don't believe in a young earth), was usually based on factors other than love.  Often those getting married had no say at all.  Often they had some say, but not absolute.  On rare occasions, they could choose what they wanted.  In all three of these cases, economic, reproductive, and family connections were the primary reasons for marriage.  I could cite countless examples, but I hope you can take this one on faith.  Love was sometimes taken into account in choosing a marriage partner.  Often it was not.  Even when it was, it was rarely the determining factor.  There was no point in marrying for love if your children would starve to death (how loving).

By now, you may be thinking "how cruel and oppressive those people were!  How good it is we're more enlightened now!"  Studying history, however, might change your mind.  Marriage served a function.  Roman political candidates were regularly asked about whether or not they had entered into marriage with the intention of raising children.  It's hard for Americans to understand this, but who you married could make or break you and your entire family for the rest of your life.  And after that it would seriously affect your children.  As a rule, people married for reasons that made a lot of sense in a lot of non-emotional ways.  It's important to realize, however, that a great many people fell in love during their marriage.  This still frequently happens in arranged marriages.

Homosexuality has also been generally universally condemned historically.  Why do you think this is, if it's clearly harmless to society?  Homosexuals have just had rotten luck?  People have been cruel and evil for all of history, and are suddenly enlightened now?  I don't want to press this point, but I'm simply talking about universality.  If you study enough, you'll start to pick out that certain behaviors are advantageous, and certain are not.  Homosexuality, as a behavior, had nothing beneficial to offer over heterosexuality.  That said, that's never stopped a lot of people.  People still bing drink, though the benefits are scant.  People still commit suicide; hardly an advantageous decision.  I may sound cold, but realize that I'm only approaching this in the context of function at the moment.  Love served an important function—to draw individuals closely together in a way that will make them work better together in various contexts.  Sexual love was functionally significant in child-raising.  Love between family and friends and "coworkers" was important for various other reasons.  Some times people didn't quite get the right emotions in the right relationships, and this was maladaptive in an evolutionary sense.

"What about the Greeks?!"  One may cry.  Well, yes, many (though certainly not all—Plato put homosexuality in the same category as incest) Greeks praised homosexuality.  Generally speaking, however, this came in the form of pederasty (other forms were much less common).  So, yes, many Greeks thought homosexuality was great—generally the same Greeks who thought that having sex with children was great.

Life has changed.  Marriage has taken on whole new meanings these days.  The "Companionate Marriage" is common, and many feel that there should not be any distinction between concubinage and marriage and civil unions.  What to do with that, I can't tell you.  I'm not a sociologist.  But this wasn't really an issue historically.  And for some people today, it still isn't.  You can have a perfectly satisfying life (if records are any sign) without making love pivotal to your life.  You can get married, have children, and be happy.  You can also be perfectly happy without ever drinking (though the French would never believe it).  You can even be happy without ever being able to speak.  Helen Keller was quite outspoken on this.  Now, don't take this the wrong way; it applies to me.  I really, really, really want to get married.  I've been engaged for over two years, and not being willing to shack up with my fiancée or anything before we're married, this is very, very frustrating to me.  I recently realized, however, that I was being stupid about it, and making myself unhappy—I was choosing to focus on my desire to be with her.  You can argue that love is something I just can't control, or you can argue it isn't.  I don't care.  I'm deeply in love with her, and that's not going to change.  But I can shift my focus.  Make my relationship with her less important in comparison to, say, my writing.  It's not what I want, but man, I find that by shifting my focus, my life is now both more fulfilling and much happier.

And, shockingly, some people manage to be quite happy while celibate.  Hard to believe, eh?  Maybe these people were born asexual.  I don't know.  Maybe they're just deluding themselves, or they don't realize what they're missing—but then, what kind of a bigot would judge other people's current happiness on moral grounds like that, right?

I'm not talking about causes here, or choice of orientation.  I'm not interested in it.  I'm not talking about psychology; that's my fiancée's specialty (seeing as she's getting her degree in Psychology in one of the most respected Psych programs in the world this May).  I'm talking about history, and how we might just fit into it, or apply some of its lessons to ourselves.  I'm not going to tell you if you can change how you feel about this or that person—that's your job (or a psychologist's).

From my personal perspective, I just don't see the function of homosexuality.  What does it do for its practicioners?  How does it give them an emotional/competetive/social/mental/spiritual/evolutionary/scientific/etc. edge?

This may seem awefully cold, but I like to think it's fairly rational.  But then, I've a little experience with love, myself.  I believe that, for someone with self mastery, love is ultimately a choice.  You choose to love, or to stop loving someone.  If you're smart, you can figure out how to never fall out of love, or how to fall in love with someone again.  At the same time, you can choose to stop loving, or choose to love again.  I'm not going to pretend like it's easy.  It usually isn't.  But choosing love is something that can, and must be, done, for (most of) those who wish to always love faithfully.  This concept is arguably at the core of Christianity, but that's a whole other discussion.

So that's my 2¢.  I hope it's something you haven't considered before.  I have few delusions, and I certainly don't expect to change anyone's mind on anything they feel strongly about.  But I hope you feel a little better informed now, and have a greater perspective on things.  I really don't want to get into an argument, so if  you're about to, stop.  You can provide a different perspective, but I really hate arguing; an awful lot of experience has taught me that people generally don't change their minds, even (especially?) when they've been soundly thrashed in the mental arena.

Feel free to discuss whether or not people can choose to love in another thread.  That's not a matter of history, and is terribly philosophical, so I figure it's fair game.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 01:35:01 PM by The Jade Knight »
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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2007, 05:57:47 PM »
Thanks for your commeents, JK.

Just an FYI though, I don't think that the discussion of origins of homosexuality or the degree of choice is out of place. In fact, I don't think i've seen a truly off topic remark yet. Amazing for a forum that is liberal about allowing the topics to wander.

Part of the reason loveless arranged marriages worked, though, is because the partners found romance, physically and emotionally, elsewhere. It may have been officially incorrect, but many people still practiced adultery. This didn't ruin the marriage because an arranged marriage, where the partners didn't fall in love eventually, wasn't expected to truly have fidelity or devotion. As long as it produced offspring. I don't think this invalidates what you've said, but I do think that it adds a complication to the certainty of your conclusion.

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2007, 06:31:09 PM »
Note: I know of at least one LDS author who has done a very respectful book series with a gay man as a main protagonist.  Tracy Hickman (with Margaret)'s Rose of the Prophet books.  Might not work for a person who is actually gay, but I found the depiction to be very well done.

Armadius,

Tracy Hickman also wrote The Immortals.   http://www.amazon.com/Immortals-Tracy-Hickman/dp/0451454049/sr=8-1/qid=1169659425/ref=sr_1_1/103-0145897-0301471?ie=UTF8&s=books

"It's 2010, and an attempted cure for AIDS has mutated into a deadlier disease, V-CIDS. The U.S., under martial law, has set up "quarantine centers" in the Southwest. Searching for his gay son, Jon, media mogul Michael Barris smuggles himself into one of centers only to discover that it and the other centers are actually extermination camps."

I don't think it addresses the morality of the homosexual lifestyle but it definitely addresses how we mistreat people that we disagree with.  It's quite dark and gritty, for my tastes, but I thought it was a good book.
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore

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Aen Elderberry

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2007, 08:10:45 PM »
The advice given?  "Love her."  The man argued that since that was precisely the problem, how could he love her?  The psychologist then explained that feelings of love naturally arise when we do acts of love.  Simply put, the verb love leads to the noun love.

I liked Robert_Boyd's comments and thought I'd expand on the idea of being able to choose actions and even thoughts that deviate from ones urges.

Common to most world religions, Mormonism included, is the idea of self-denial.  Joy comes to us from controlling our appetites and passions, not being controlled by them.  Control of thoughts is central to self-control, i.e. buddhist concept of taming the monkey mind.  Some go to the extreme, in my opinion, of total denial of passions and bodily needs.  Such a view is as extreme as those who totally indulge.  But joy and peace do come from mastering the flesh, conquering oneself.  (Much easier in theory than in practice.)  Those that follow their appetites where ever they lead typically are lead to pain and suffering.  Unbridled indulgence always leads to a hangover of some sort though we don't always recognize what caused the hangover.

Too often we practice self-mastery in the negative sense, a denial of pleasure, rather than a more positive view of being free of the chains of addiction and free to follow the things that bring us joy.  For example, it's easier for me to indulge myself in some minor "enjoyment" like watching a movie than it is to "force myself" to write, which usually brings me feelings of contentment or a sense of accomplishment or even  joy.

Do you want pleasure?  or Joy?
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore

"It is important to fight, and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated." - Albus Dumbledore

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2007, 11:20:50 PM »
I don't think Armadius is reading this thread anymore, and the longer this goes on the more it looks like preaching to the choir.
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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2007, 02:28:33 AM »
I don't think that he isn't reading this thread, but he did say he would no longer reply unless it was returned to the original track. I believe after the last couple of posts we may hear from him again.

Just as an observer in this discussion, not having anything really new to add before, I wanted to say that I thought this was the most civil discussion of delicate topics I have ever seen. Even when there were disagreements. Thank you to everyone involved for proving that it can be done.