Author Topic: Religion (Potentially sensitive)  (Read 33128 times)

little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2008, 05:42:21 PM »
I probably shouldn't post in this, since I'll get sucked in and most likely won't surface for a while, but oh well. I like religious discussions.

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So how does a single person born about 2000 years afterward have the right to change GOD's word?

You're implying that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. He didn't. He translated the writings of other prophets, prophets who lived before, at, and after the time of Christ. The time frame of the BoM is 600 BCE/BC - 400 CE/AD.

Also, I need to mention that the book doesn't CHANGE the word of God. God's word stays the same. All that changes is what he chooses to reveal to us. But that doesn't matter for this discussion. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, one that proves the truth of the Bible. It doesn't discredit it, nor should the BoM be used WITHOUT the Bible. They go hand in hand.

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The accounts of Jesus Christ are written by multiple witnesses. Any error would be corrected by those who witnessed Jesus' resurrection.

Technically, no mortal really WITNESSED Christ's resurrection. They witnessed him AFTER the resurrection. Not the resurrection itself. So therefore, Christ's apostles who saw Christ in the flesh after the crucifixion are just as reliable as those "other sheep" who Christ said that he needed to visit. The people in the America's (who the Book of Mormon tells the story of) are some of those "other sheep."

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Life is not about good works. It is only through trust in Jesus that we are saved. He has restored our relationship with GOD by becoming one of us and paying for all of our sins. It is because of what he did for us is why we do good deeds, out of love and gratitude so that those who see the kindness in our hearts may believe.

The good works thing--what Skar said. I was going to use James 2 as well.

Christ atoned for our sins, yes, but whether we allow that Atonement to work in our lives is our choice. If we ask for His help, and we repent of our sins truly, asking for forgiveness, then the Atonement will work for us. BUT we can't commit that sin again. Odds are we will, since we're human, but then we'll just have to ask for further forgiveness. The goal is to overcome our sins and weaknesses.

1 Corinthians 10:13
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
(that may or may not be completely accurate. It was from memory as I'm too lazy to look it up online)

That scripture isn't just about trials. It's also about (among other things) the weaknesses that we're given to work through in life. There are ways to overcome them. By overcoming them, we become better people. Better people do good works. I believe this is more what the "good works" in "salvation comes through faith in Christ and good works" is referring to. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.
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Drakogy

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2008, 07:22:01 PM »
Matthew 24:23-25
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

As for Saul, he was accompanied with other men on his way to Damascus who heard Jesus but did not see him. GOD also spoke to Ananias in a vison to restore not only Paul's physical blindness but spiritual blindness as well. Paul also talked with the Apostles Jesus' works and teachings.

The same cannot be said about Smith who was the sole witness but who could not locate the ancient texts. Also he could not read any ancient egyptian texts in his trial by which he said was the language the writtings were in.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The only path to salvation is through Trust in Jesus Christ. Trust is not something we do but a confirmation of what Christ has done for us. For he has earned my trust, I do not blindly follow him. For I have realized that I truly need him.

1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

As I have stated before I do good works out of love and gratitude not for personal gain but for those who see my good works so that they too may come to believe. It has come to my attention that LDS is very generous to those interested in the church. You provide houses and support for those in need which is great, but I have heard that those who turn away from the Mormon church lose everything. Yet they say it was worth it.

So no matter what we do we will always be sinful and imperfect till we are renewed after death. Our goal is to not better ourselves but bring others to the relationship with GOD.

Also GOD knowing who we were before our birth does not imply that we were alive before it only says that he is all knowing.

Please forgive me if I made something unclear or if I jumped around a bit. I do speak harshly not out of hatred but out of concern. You are all wonderful and kind people but I want to bring some things to light that might not have thought about before.
Thank You for your patience
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melbatoast

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2008, 07:51:47 PM »
Wow, this is a great discussion! I just wanted to mention something regarding free will/God's omniscience. I took LDS Perspectives on Psychology at BYU a few years back and we spent a lot of time talking about agency. Basically there are two schools of thought regarding God's omniscience, with several general authorities falling in either category.

1. God knows everything that is going to happen as in he can see the future, but we cannot see the future so we still have free will. God exists outside of time and past, present, and future are as one to him.

2. God cannot SEE the future, but he is omniscient in the sense that he is so intelligent and knows us so well, that he can predict very accurately what will happen in the future. He knows everything that can be known. An analogy used to explain this is a master chess player playing someone who has never played chess before. Although the master doesn't know the exact moves the novice will make, he can make very accurate predictions as to the outcome of the came. This means that God moves through time in the same way as us instead of existing outside of time.

I'd have to dig up my notes to see if I could find any sources or quotes on either of those, but I thought I would throw it out there for people to think about. I tend to lean towards the second one, but it really doesn't matter that much to us right now in any case.
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little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2008, 07:52:57 PM »
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The same cannot be said about Smith who was the sole witness but who could not locate the ancient texts. Also he could not read any ancient egyptian texts in his trial by which he said was the language the writtings were in.

Huh? Are you saying Joseph wasn't able to find the ancient texts he translated from? They were gold plates. And he DID find them, and he WASN'T the only person who saw them. There were at least 11 other witnesses.

And maybe my education has been lacking, but I don't recall any trial Joseph went through. At least not any COURT trial. He actually sent some of the Reformed Egyptian he'd been translating and his translation to a scholar--a professor at a university--and the professor said it was an accurate translation. Look it up. That's true.

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Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

True, we're saved by the grace of God, AFTER all we can do. But ultimately, it's Christ that saves us. No one can make it to heaven on their own. Everyone needs Christ's intervention.

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It has come to my attention that LDS is very generous to those interested in the church. You provide houses and support for those in need which is great, but I have heard that those who turn away from the Mormon church lose everything. Yet they say it was worth it.

The church helps out others in need regardless of whether they turn away from the church or not. Perhaps you're accounts come from those who turned away from the church's help BECAUSE it was the LDS church helping and they refused to accept help.....Often times, when the church gives aid, it's not for missionary work. It's for service. It's to alleviate the suffering of our fellow brothers and sisters who are also children of God. It's not to convert others.

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I do speak harshly not out of hatred but out of concern. You are all wonderful and kind people but I want to bring some things to light that might not have thought about before.

Ah, but you see, you get the best results when you DON'T speak harshly. When you put across your opinions in a clear, reasonable light. I'm happy to hear that you're so concerned for us. But if you ARE so concerned, why don't you start projecting some of that love? There'd be less chance for anyone to misconstrue what you say.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2008, 09:42:04 PM »
I'm going to call an end to this particular branch of the conversation, which is growing out of control and causing bad feelings. Neither side is providing citations for anything outside the scriptures -- and in every single one of those cases their argument relies on a particular interpretation of that scripture. Thus that gets us no where. So, we are *not* discussing whether Mormonism is *true* at this point. We can talk about what the Doctrines of the LDS church are, we can talk about personal beliefs, we can talk about doctrines of other sects. But we are *not* trying to discredit specific religions here.

I hope I'm clear here and don't need to start making threats and taking administrative action.

little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2008, 09:46:17 PM »
I completely agree. I think discussions where people try to disprove other religions are pointless. I actually didn't realize that's what he was doing until the end of his last post...But I'm all for doctrinal discussions. Those are MUCH more fun!
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Skar

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2008, 10:48:10 PM »
Awwww, I think it's kind of fun when ill-informed anti-mormons try to hurt other people's faith in Christ using blatantly and obviously false statements.

It's almost as fun as when well informed anti-mormons do it but that's, unfortunately, not what's going on here.
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little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2008, 10:59:08 PM »
I think it can be pretty funny, too. Although, it CAN get annoying after a while--when the person is so close-minded they refuse to even read/listen to what you have to say/write....I've come across a few of those (actually, more than a few, but that's beside the point).

Regardless, I'm not going to fight against SE. Who knows what those monkeys can do. I may be a coward, but I for one don't want to find out. I've seen a few too many evil monkey videos on youtube to test a monkey master's patience (although I would like to see just how much control a monkey master can really have....monkeys are devilish little creatures...).

But I digress....
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

mtlhddoc2

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2008, 11:27:53 PM »
Ok, to be fair, I didnt read this thread in it's entirety, I always get lost as soon as someone mentions religion and logic in the same sentence. Logic and religion really have nothing to do with each other, since using your full logical capacities, you cannot logically infer the existence of something noone has ever seen and there is no evidence of anyone ever seen. Belief, however, is another matter. Faith is something which defies logic. You have to have faith that what you believe actually exists. you simply cannot apply faith and logic to teh same argument.

It is my belief, though, that each person should read the scripture, doctrines and religious texts of each religion before coming to a conclusion that another religion is wrong. If indeed there is a "God" or gods, you could ALL be right, and/or wrong, at the same time. You are all certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish, but do not disparge something you know little or nothing about. Each of you, even those of the same religion, have different beliefs, but I do not believe that blindly following your diocese, chapter, or preacher/preist/imam/rabbi is one of them. Those people exist, but are not as common as many think.

For full disclosure: I am an athiest/agnostic/non-believer, whatever you want to call me. I do not believe in the existence of a higher power or beings greater than those which can be physically observed. And believe it or not, I am a Republican ;) - and I have read the religious texts of nearly every major religion, including all versions and instances of the Judaic/Christian bible(s) and the Koran. I have also studied religon extensively and in partciular, the conclaves which determined what to preach in Christianity ad the "transcription" of the Koran and Bible.


Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #114 on: November 20, 2008, 11:38:50 PM »
I don't find it particularly amusing myself. I think laughing at others' ignorance is rude (and also pointless). I would rather spend my effort on people who are actually interested in learning the truth or at least in learning what other people believe.

Responding to people who are just out to criticize you, no matter how ill-informed they may be, is largely a waste of time—with the possible exception that it shows bystanders (who don't know that the attacks are ignorant) that you do have a response. And in that case, the tone of your response can make as much or more of an impression than the words of your response. As poking fun at someone can only make you look bad, it's a better idea all around not to do it no matter how tempting it may seem.
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little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #115 on: November 20, 2008, 11:49:33 PM »
It's always good to know more about the major religions of the world. I'm a student at BYU-I (LDS church school). I transferred up here last fall, and the first religion course I took was World Religions. It went over 11 of the major world religions--Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Shinto, etc. It was really quite a fascinating class. I wish I'd brought the book back up here with me this semester.

Anyway, I know this class was taught from an LDS professor's point of view, but I feel like we addressed the religions pretty accurately. One of the things that my prof pushed was the fact that all religions have some degree of truth to them. Some more than others, and our goal was to see the truth in each of the religions.

This was really kind of fun to do. Quite a few of them respected nature significantly, to the point where they wouldn't harm creatures--not even swat a mosquito. This isn't a bad thing to follow--respect for other creatures. I wouldn't take it to the extreme of not even swatting a mosquito or killing a fly that just won't stop buzzing around you, but the theory of it is something everybody could learn from.

Taking that class didn't cause me lose faith in the LDS religion, though. If anything, it strengthened it. There are questions that aren't answered well-enough in other faiths that are, at least to some degree, answered in the LDS faith. Granted, not all answers are given--that's where faith comes in--but the doctrines just feel right. They're not perfect. But they're awfully close.

And I actually agree with Mok as well....I just remembered a religious discussion I got in a while ago somewhere else online. It was one of those pointless "Are Mormons Christians?" topics.....It was pretty much me against six or seven fairly knowledgable  people....Incredibly frustrating, to say the least. Took forever for me to find a good time to back out....That was the last Mormon-Christian debate I ever got in. I don't think I'll ever do it again.::)
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Drakogy

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2008, 12:26:08 AM »
You may deny me or staight out shun me but I made it clear that I want to present certain points you might not have considered. From what you have told me it has become apparent that your Church is withholding certain truths from you. For me a Lutheran the Bible is sola scriptura nothing else. This may make you feel uneasy but that is what life is about; solving the problems at hand instead of running away or making excuses.

So with this said I sincerely hope you will look beyond your bias

This is a personal story by an Ex-LDS member
I ask you to take a look at what she has to say
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/my.htm

Here is her website consisting of well documented facts of Mormon history
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/

If you truly say that you are not the ignorant ones you will listen to what she has to say. Other than that I will be happy to answer any questions about where I stand. Thank You for your time~
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2008, 12:39:32 AM »
Drakogy, you're not shedding any light we haven't heard before. We've been at this a lot longer than you. Nothing you say makes me uneasy because I've already dealt with it.

There are no questions to ask you because you're not interested in sharing your own beliefs; you're only attacking the beliefs of others. You've also demonstrated in this thread that you ignore evidence from the Bible that you feel like ignoring, so it's pointless to try to talk with you.

People have been trying to destroy the church for almost 200 years. They haven't succeeded, and not because the church is "withholding" anything from us.
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little wilson

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2008, 12:52:47 AM »
Exactly.

Oh, and Drakogy, you should know that Kelly is a guy. He says he went on a mission when he was 19. That's the dead giveaway.....

Oh, and he also missed one of the reasons people apostatize from the church. He got two of them, but the third is pretty much not having a testimony for themselves, and then attempting to learn too much before they're ready. Basically. And that's what he did. The church doesn't lie to its members. They're not covering up anything. But there are things that aren't taught because they're so sacred that some members just simply aren't ready to hear them--because they won't understand.

Of course, I don't really expect you to read my reasoning about this. You have yet to acknowledge the evidence I've laid out previously....

I don't intend on responding to what you have to say again, unless it appears to me that you're actually reading what I'm writing and thinking logically about it. I'm listening to you. I'm giving you my feedback. If I can't get the same respect, then my part of this (with you) is over. Just know that I'm not shunning you....
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mtlhddoc2

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Re: For Brandon - Religion (Potentially sensitive)
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2008, 01:12:51 AM »
I just had to reply again.

You are speaking of organized religion. And throughout history into the present day, all organized religions withhold truths from their membership. All of them. Without fail. Each and every religion has inconsistencies in its teachings and its scripture. Part of faith is looking beyond or past those. Even so, most churches/religions/diocese (etc) cover up shady parts or inconsistencies and always have. It is human nature to withhold evidence which does not support your cause/theory/hypothesis (etc). It is what it is, and it does not make the faith or one's belief in such faith, invalid. Please, please, do not make one religion out to be more "sanctimonious" than another. They all have failings and questionable morality from their pasts...  and presents. It is an insult to anyone of any intelligence to suggest otherwise. Just liek it is insulting in the political spectrum to suggest that the Bush administration has done no wrong, or no right, in the past 8 years. When you deal in absolutes, be sure that it is absolute.