Author Topic: Are you serious?!  (Read 3665 times)

darxbane

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 10:25:04 PM »
I thought the Amish were Quakers?  Maybe not.  I'll take your word for it.
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happyman

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 04:44:56 PM »
Oh, I understand him quite well, believe me, and he is part of a Baptist church that has a very large following.  Are saying you are not familiar with Catholics (who believe the Harry Potter books are evil, as do some Protestant groups), or the Quakers, who have shunned the modern world almost entirely?  Fear is fear, and it is seldom rational.  I am not saying that the members of these groups all think the same, but unfortunately those that are extremists always seem to be the ones who get on the news.

I'm not at all certain about the attitudes Catholics have towards Harry Potter.  I am, of course, well aware of the Protestant groups.  While I disagree with them about their appraisal of Harry Potter, I'm quite certain they do not disapprove for the reason you gave, e.g. seeing fictional worlds in which things that never really happened might make the Bible seem fictional.  It seems to me that the reason they actually give (rather than reasons that you fantasize about) is that Harry Potter makes witchcraft seem fun, exciting, and otherwise harmless, whereas these groups view it as dangerous, dark and something to be avoided.  Even while disagreeing with the specific allegations they make, I can see the logic behind this argument; it's not inherently flawed.  There are certainly books whose influences on culture I find abhorrent, which I would never recommend to anybody, not because I have any trouble telling fiction from reality but because I view the moral stance the author took to be badly flawed.

And yes, you definitely mixed up the Quakers with the Amish.  And while I don't understand why the Amish do what they do, I doubt you do either.

And for the record, Mennonites dress in older-style clothing, but they don't actually eschew modern technology.  My grandparents live in a Mennonite-run nursing home, which is actually quite modern.
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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 05:03:41 PM »
i don't have a problem with someone who objects on things from a moral stand point (i.e. if you dislike harry potter because of the message it sends, OK, that's fine). i do, however, hate when certain people/groups distort things beyond the actual issue, either out of ignorance, or a desire to rally support. Sort of like the previously mentioned Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" which has a heavily distorted perspective on roleplaying games in general, and has refused to even listen to complaints of how it is horrendously wrong
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happyman

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 12:10:59 AM »
i don't have a problem with someone who objects on things from a moral stand point (i.e. if you dislike harry potter because of the message it sends, OK, that's fine). i do, however, hate when certain people/groups distort things beyond the actual issue, either out of ignorance, or a desire to rally support. Sort of like the previously mentioned Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" which has a heavily distorted perspective on roleplaying games in general, and has refused to even listen to complaints of how it is horrendously wrong

Well, that's different.  Clearly distorting the evidence is a problem, and it happens all the time.  As I said, I really liked Harry Potter and roundly disagree with its detractors (in terms of "witchcraft" problems at any rate).

Even in the most distorted arguments I've heard, though, I've never seen anything like darxbane's hypothesis.
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darxbane

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 07:30:34 PM »
There are a significant number of people out there who believe the bible is fiction, many more who believe it is heavily distorted history.  Those who do believe the bible is literal and 100% factual will defend that belief.  I have often heard people comparing belief in God to belief in Santa Claus, elves, or other fantastic creatures.  Where are these ideas obtained?  From comparing fantasy stories to the Bible.  These books give naysayers the opportunity to try to marginilize the Bible's teachings.  After all, have you ever seen an angel?  What about someone who could part water with a gesture?  We believe these things based on faith; There is no physical evidence.  You may not have heard of people who do this, but I have met them. 
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 09:30:33 PM »
But any Mother Goose story can give you that excuse if you're looking for it. Applying it specifically to popular fantasy books seems a stretch to me.

The objection I've heard is the "makes witchcraft sound like fun" one. Personally, I am much more concerned by movies like Grease (for the same reason, except without the witchcraft). It's a lot easier to separate fantasy from reality than to separate how your kids' peers may actually be behaving from how you want your kids to behave.
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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2008, 07:16:45 PM »
Dude, any person who does not believe in the literal translation of the bible (about 2/3 of the American population) is going to "marginalize" in some way or another the bible when talking about it, if you're looking at the bible from a literal point of view.  You don't need fantasy stories to do it.  More importantly, any person who does not believe in the bible being at all true, or being very distorted, is going to do so with or without fantasy stories. 

It's just as easy for somebody to point to a picture of Starry Night and say, "Well, the diegesis in this piece is unlike anything you've seen in real life, so the diegesis in the Bible could be equally unreal."  Should there be a stance against all still art, too?  And, really, in all movies--as any person who has studied film will tell you--everything from the basic appearance of movement to the editing affects are facets which appear to be real despite the fact that they are illusions.  So, again, it's easy to say, "Films look like moving pictures, but they're not--everything in them is fake.  The bible probably just looks like a historical outlook on Christ's teachings, but it too is fake."

Nearly ANY art can be construed to compare to the bible as "unreal."  Not only is that logic inherently flawed because it attacks one facet of creation where all facets fail, but it is also flawed because even without the arts these comparisons would STILL happen, so the art is, in this case, an unnecessary tool instead of the cause.  In fact, like you said, it would be just as easy to compare the Bible to facets which stem FROM Christianity, such as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Any person who has to defend their belief by attempting to take away ways to question it, rather than addressing those ways, either does not understand his or her beliefs well enough or is believing the wrong thing.  Obviously, with Christianity, they are not inherently believing the wrong thing.  Darx, if your argument is, in fact, a stance any person takes, perhaps these people should spend more time trying to understand why they believe what they do, and less time trying to remove the beliefs of others from their surroundings.  It seems to me, however, that you are misunderstanding the stance some people are taking.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 07:19:41 PM by GorgontheWonderCow »
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darxbane

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2008, 11:14:49 PM »
You guys are making my point, but I am obviously not explaining it well.  I will qualify my statement earlier.  I re-read and realized it sounded like I was talking about the majority of Christians.  I was actually talking about those who condemn based on ignorance and fear.  I fully believe that the vast majority of those who are so quick to anger and rash judgement are either weak in their faith, or have an agenda.
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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2008, 06:44:12 AM »
I'll just chime in and bring out the point that the Bible's kinship with Fantasy actually helped C.S. Lewis to believe in it—one of the most profound religious experiences he had was realizing that the Christianity was "the true Fantasy", so to speak.
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Reaves

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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2008, 11:55:04 PM »
I'll just chime in and bring out the point that the Bible's kinship with Fantasy actually helped C.S. Lewis to believe in it—one of the most profound religious experiences he had was realizing that the Christianity was "the true Fantasy", so to speak.

Huh. I never heard that. Not that I've done much research or anything...but I always thought it was logic that finally convinced him.
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Re: Are you serious?!
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2008, 08:12:54 AM »
It's an easy assumption to make, because Lewis' approach to Christianity is so terribly logical.  His conversion, as far as I can tell, was only partially logical, and largely spiritual, however.  He wrote an entire allegory about it, "The Pilgrim's Regress".  It's worth reading—kind of a fascinating insight into his spiritual journey.
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