I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments

[CUBAREY]

I think that his "objectivest" philosophy has turned him from a run of the mill egomaniac onto a paranoid egomaniac.  Actually, I think Goodkind is upset because Ayn Rand placed her philosophy partially in Fantasy setting (Anthem) but was classified as a "serious" novelist and not a fantasy writer.  Here a quote from Shakespeare would be helpful. "The fault dear Brutus (read Goodkind), lies not in the stars but in ourselfs that we be underlings.  Rand was original, good fantasy writers are at least imaginative, Goodkind (IMO) is neither.  His primary interest is not to write a good story but to adnvance his version of "objectivism".  Which puts his novels at a par with those of L. Ron Hubbard.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Which puts his novels at a par with those of L. Ron Hubbard.

Ouch. That's a stinging condemnation, if I ever heard one.

Except that...did the novels Hubbard wrote as novels do anything to espouse his philosophy? I didn't see anything of Scientology in Battlefield Earth. (Granted, I didn't read Mission Earth...) Could that mean Goodkind is actually worse than Hubbard?

[EDIT: I should apologize. I'm just piling on because it seems amusing. I haven't actually read any of Goodkind's books, though after reading the interviews I'm less inclined to.]

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I like where this thread is going.

[Flian]

oh the newbie (me) has to get his fingers sticky....

Ok so i went and started reading the 10 page dissertation that Goodkind did, and I tried (honest) to get through some of it, and to be fair I've read and enjoyed every detail of which shade of blue Elayne wanted to wear, and the subtle smell of pepermint vs. mint, in a concoction of tea that Naenyeve (gosh I buggered that spelling) made.  BUTTTT I had to stop cause of his drug users reference........


Is it me or did he just say that since I drive, automobile manufacturer's stay in business, and sell cars to drug dealers who then use them in murderous campaigns and that makes me accessory?  Or did he say that because cars kill, and I drive one I'm a murderer?  Lord how some peoples views are scary.

Mr. Goodkind, you wear your hair long,  men with long hair are drugy infested axe murderers therefore you clearly are the same and should be put in the pen or better yet executed.  Or perhaps you simply have a fetish with Confessor's and feel your power is derived and your status derived from the length of your hair? 

So as a person he certainly is off from me but so what... his writing is what I'll judge him on. 

Goodkinds SOT series whatever his mental thought is on it, is in fact VERY similar to Jordan's, fair enough I can accept it, I mean how many ways can you rehash good/evil battles.   So when first I read WFR, I thought wow this is a LOT like WOT.  But I enjoyed the book... there are some exceptions I'd note in his writing that I do not enjoy.  And after the first 2 or 3 books I stopped bying hard back, I could wait the 6 months for sofcover, his books are not worth full price. 

1. Kahlan de-mans the bad guy.  Good for her, I never ever want to hear it described so thouroughly again. 
         a. I'm a guy it hurts to think on
         b. I like sharing my books with my kids, i cant share this stuff with my kids.
         c. The world is full of sick stuff I dont want to see, I dont want to see it in my mind either.
         d. I cant get the visual out of my head.

2. little girl with a broomstick where it shouldn't be. 
            yes the aftermath of war is sick and disgusting....
         a. I would never want to see my little girl like that, who do you think every father will see in their mind?
         b. What sickness in ones head lets you dream up stuff like that?
         c. Sick things happen every day to innocent people, I don't want to see it in life nor in book.'

The only comparison I can make is to Jordan, why, because he is one of the few that has an epic that is as big as Goodkinds... oh and its tech exact same story.   

1. Dumai's well.....
   There is nothing in this massive battle that I read that would make me say "oh my 11 year old shouldnt read this"
    The story is there, the words tell of the battle, my mind can chose how much to fill in.  The picture is painted but not zoomed in.  PERFECT

2. intimacy... Aviendha and Rand, again and the other times people "hook up" there is NOTHING that I would feel bad about my children reading at any age.   At 8 years old my sons would see nothing but two adults playing in the snow.  At 15 my son would blush knowing what they are doing but unable to see it clearly.  As a father of 3 children I know good and well whats going on.

Jordan's writing caters to ALL ages, because he writes in a way that YOUR imagination gets to fill in the minutia, Goodkind takes little minds and destroys them, letting them see things that they should never ever see.  There is no way to take his descriptions and NOT see it, not have it burned into your mind.   I LOATH to think of the day my kids are able to find the books in their library and have their innocence shattered in such a vicious manner.

Anyway, I do like the story,  I love Kahlan and so I read it, albeit 6 months behind his "fans".
Hey he's a Fantasy author I have to see what he has to offer right? :-)

Flian

[Ratlord12]

I admire Goodkind's chutzpah and conviction. His books, however, suck. Boring boring boring.

And why does he deny that he's a fantasy author? His is. His novels contain major elements of the fantastic. That makes his novels fantasy. Sure, most fantasy is garbage, but so is most other literature. I don't see why anyone should feel guilty for publishing genre fiction.

New rumor to start: Terry Goodkind is actually a woman. Look at his hair, and Terry is a unisex name.

*puts on a dunce hat and sits in the corner*

I'll shut up now. 

 

[Phaz]

I'm about 2/3rds through Confessor right now.  In that book, I came to a realization.

His books are quite entertaining when something is happening.  Goodkind does have a talent for writing an action scene and building suspense.  His action scenes might not be as 'cool' as Brandon's (You just can't compete with the dimensions that allomancy throws into the mix) but they are fun to read.

However, in his books, when nothing is going on, they are among the most boring books I have read.  I'm in the group of people that used to be a big reader, then stopped.  I was turned off of books by school mostly.  We read old, boring novels and were forced to analyze them for one kind of element or another.  In my entire high school career, I read 2 books (including those assigned in English class).   Then, with JKR and HP, I was brought back into the wonderful world of reading, realizing that reading can be fun.   It's possible to just sit back, and throughly enjoy a great story.   Sometimes, Goodkind meets this goal, in other's he doesn't.

Confessor is the only book I can remember reading since highschool that I have been tempted to skip ahead pages simply because I don't care what is going on.  When things are happening, it's great, but when nothing is going on he just drudges on and on about things.  Two characters will get into an argument about something, and within 2-3 paragraphs into it you'll understand both sides, but he'll just keep repeating himself over and over and carry that on for 5-10 pages.   That just isn't interesting to me.  In Phantom there was a section of about 40 pages towards the beginning that took me 5 might s to read, simply because each time I went to read it, I literally fell asleep trying to drudge through the mess.  Once that section was over, it was easy to read 200+ pages in a single night.

That is kind of how the series has been with me.  There are a few things I love, and a few things I hate.  I love some of the wizard rules, and have found myself quoting the first rule to multiple people both online and in person.  I love the logic he presents in those rules.  As I said, his action is also great.  Yes, it's very cliche, and the hero always wins, and there are many parts about it to which someone could complain, but none of that bugs me, and I enjoy it.   However, I really hate how he crams his philosophy down your throat, and really hate how he sets up situations to make altruism look worse than it is.

Also, I find it a little humorous that as much as he says his books aren't fantasy because "Magic isn't a central part."  Yet, he has spent no less then 150 pages in each of the last three books going into great depth about how the magic system works.  Providing details that IMO sound fake and no one really cares about.  It's almost like he threw it in there just to say "Hey, look, my 'magic' system is based on math and science, thus it's not really 'magical' and so these books aren't fantasy."

Ok, that's enough ranting.  I have to go find out what happens to Richard...

[CUBAREY]

The first two books of SOL were fine, a bit derivative, the plot a bit to close to Jordan's Wheel of Time, but the action scenes were entertaining. However, starting with the third novel the prolitizing and graphic violance really started to get to me. I came to like fantasy ans Sci-Fi in a strange way I first read Animal farm, 1984, Brave New World, and Anthem, so I don't mind a political diatribe dressed as a fantasy novel. But, Orwell, Huxley, and Rand (at her best) were great writers, their stories can be enjoyed even if you disagree with the philosophical/political points that they were meant to advance.  Goodkind on the other hand will never be confused with the three mentioned authors. And that's what really bothers him and why he disassociates himself from the fantasy genre. Knowing his shortcomings as a writer he substitutes graphic detail for quality. Frankly, having studied "Objectivism" as a political philosophy I do not think that Goodkind has even grasped its nuances enough to make his novels particularly good examples of the theory in action. He is quite good at writing porographic scenes depicting rape and war but lakes the finesse required to write a coherent explaination of Objectivism.  I would not go out of my way to discourage anyone from reading the first to novels, but if asked to recommend either straight fantasy/sci-fi or political diatribes clothed as fantasy I would recommend literally dozens of authors before Goodkind. Moreover, I would never recommend his novels to anyone under 16, and would warn adults about the graphic nature of his writings.

[Elayne]

The interview that Brandon is referring to is the reason why I stopped enjoying his books. I have been a member of his message board for years, and the way he responsed to questions asked by true fans (and friends of mine) just disgusted me. I actually did not read his books for, like, years after that because anytime I would try to pick up the book and enjoy the story, my dislike of the author himself ruined it for me. I'm going to try and read Confessor eventually, just because I want to know what happens to Richard and Kahlan, but my love of the characters has sadly diminished after all the preaching that I had to skip over in Naked Empire.

[Ratlord12]

I think you're cheating yourself if you skip a good book just because you don't respect the author as a person.

It's the same with any kind of artist. Terry Goodkind seems like a total jackass, but maybe he just has toilet-mouth. He might still be a cool guy to hang with. You never can accurately judge someone until you meet them.

That said, I still see Goodkind's novels as buckets of ordure. I tried to read Wizard's First Rule and Stone of Tears, but I opted for sleep both times.

[Left D]

On the plus side, Goodkind tells a hell of a story.  His books are exciting, usually fast paced, page turners.

On the down side, for someone who claims Objectivism as such a strong influence, he sure does pilfer a whole lot of ideas, themes, even names from other writers, including Rand herself... Faith of the Fallen is nothing but a rehash of Atlas Shrugged in Goodkind's universe.  And there is little point in listing all of the numerous thefts from Jordan.

Brandon Sanderson, on the other hand, is both a big Wheel of Time Fan AND a fantasy author who comes up with his own original ideas, magic systems, etc.

[Flian]

@phaz

LOL i'm now about 1/3 of the way through the book, so brain dead and wanting to know what happens I skipped ahead to find out the final fate of Kahlan LOL.

Some of Goodkinds examples and such are so ludicris that its hard to digest... um "ban fire" WTF was he smoking?  It doesnt even make a good compelling argument you know.  Richards bro standing up there... "All fire will be banned because a house burned, and its the debil" um yeah ok, darn near lost me on that note.

Anyway you cannot compare Goodkind with Authors of the magnitude of Jordan and presumably Brandon (havent read ya yet sorry but I will I promise, even my son knowing you will write book 12 of WOT wants to see what you have :-) )...

As noted above, Goodkind is good at describing war and rape, but he fails to write with the intimate intricate nuances of a master writer.  Jordan can write war, and intimacies, and rape if he likes, and he did... BUTTTTTT it was written in a way so smooth that anyone could read it and get vivid images that let you decide how far to go.  Dumai's well for instance.  If Goodkind had written that, it would have been a detailed vision of the visceral nature of the injuries including in depth discussion of a piece of bone stuck to the tree off yonder.  I find myself joyful that Confessor is the last book in the SOT series and that I will never have cause to pick up another Goodkind book.  If I had not fallen in love with Kahlan and Richard, i'd not have made it this far.

[skibocastle]

I read the first 4 or so books of the Sword of Truth series, but gave up on the rest because I didn't enjoy the amount of philosophical rants in the books.  Now that I've read that essay and seen how manic he is about fantasy, and how it's crap, I won't read any more of his books.  I read fantasy because I love the stories.  I like to think, and don't mind some moralistic/ethical speeches, but to say that his books are not fantasy because he presents more depth and more ideas is idiotic.  They are pure fantasy.  He takes the poor, backwoods kid with no parents and turns him into the hero of the world.  What in that is not fantasy?

[rtm1981]

I have to say I had absolutely no idea what an ass Goodkind was. Shocking! Having said that though it doesn't take away from the words in his books. Very few people can write an action scene like Goodkind does. Kahlan is also one of my favorite female characters ever.  Books 1,2 and 6 are absolutely fantastic in my opinion. Books 6 has an unbelievable climax when he reveals what he's created and sways one of the main antagonists in the story to Richard's way of thinking. So powerful I got goosebumps all over. Also the scene when Kahlan performs the actions needed to gain Richard entrance to the Temple of the Winds is so revolting that it was hard to read, but it led to a great climax (pun not intended) as well.

It may not take away from what he's already written, but I may not be able to pick up his future books after having read that interview and some other distasteful stuff I've found on the internet.

[WriterDan]

If you've only read up to book 6, you won't be missing anything by quitting on Goodkind now.  The last 3 books (9,10,11) were absolutely horrendous.  Bad writing.  Bad story.  Bad dialogue.  7 & 8 are a lot of deus ex machina.  In essence, give up now or waste hours of good time.  Consider yourself warned.