Author Topic: Combat  (Read 10968 times)

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2005, 08:19:10 PM »
Okay, those are the basic units I thought of and weapons and shields.  Only ships deal with sheilds, the rest just have armor.  Here how I imagine combat going:

When a battle is declared by one player, he or she will choose how many of his or her units which are currently in the system or region of the battle will participate in the battle.  The defender does the same.  Both the attacker and defender must have at least one unit fight in the battle.  If the attacking player looses a battle, all his or her ships in the system retreat to a warp-gate, except ships that are in "ambush" mode and did not participate in the battle.  If the defending player looses a battle, all ships in the system retreat to that system's planet and may not be used for the next turn.  While on the planet, they may be fixed at the disgretion and will of their owner, but do not have to be.  Defending ships given the "ambush" command that did not participate in the loosing battle may remain in the system without fleeing to the planet.

All players engaging in a battle e-mail a third party, either a GM or if there is no GM a nuetral player.  The E-mail should have all their participating unit's stats.  That player or GM will send the number of squads, tanks and men being used in the battle by the other team.  Then all players involved send their commands to the nuetral player or GM.  

Each unit/squad will be given a primary command, a secondary command and a third command.  There are several "in-battle" commands.  These commands are attack right flank, attack left flank, attack center, defend, move.  A command rundown would look something like this:
Quote

Squad #1:
~Machine Gun, Right Flank, "The Enchiladas"
~Photon, Center, Ambushing Forces
~If Attacked, Defend flank attacked



The Squad you are commanding is on top, then beneath are three commands.  Command orders go "Weapon, Region, Target" for attacks.  the first command will be the command used in battle.  The second and third commands are "back-up" plans. The will only be used in the situation that they describe, so in the scenerio above, the last command will ONLY be initiated if that squad is attacked.  You could go into depth with your secondary commands, saying If Squad #2 is attacked, attack: Photon, Left Flank, Squad attacking Squad #2.

Squads told to defend will only have the defend effects on one flank.  This flank will automatically be the flank which would take the most damage.

At the beggining of the battle, both sides start at "long range." In order to use "moderate" or "close" range weapons, ships must move forward.  To move, a unit's primary command must be move.  If a moving unit is not attacked, its secondary command is ALSO carried out.  A unit can move twice and attack if its primary and secondary command is move, it is not attacked at any time, and its third command is attack.  If a moving unit is attacked, it still move, but does not carry its secondary command.  A moving unit cannot have secondary commands that overide moving: for example, a moving unit cannot have "If attacked, defend" as a secondary command.

All flanks on all units have 5 health.  If one flank of a squad is destroyed, it retreats from the battle.  If it belonged to a player outside of a system he or she controls, destroy it.  If it belonged to a player inside a system he or she controls, inside an ally's system or if the player gets permission to land from another player, it retreats to that system's planet*.  It is not allowed to be used for the next turn, and may be fixed at the owner's wishes.  If two flanks are destroyed, that squad is destroyed.

*If it is a land battle, forces retreat to a region they own that is not being fought in.  If no such region exists, they are simply removed from battle.

A player wins a battle if one of the following occurs, if two of the following situations occur, the one highest on the list is the winning scenerio:

~He or she has at least four times more troops than his or her opponent at beggining of battle.  If this occurs, the battle is not fought, and all the loosing forces are forced to flee.
~He or she removes from battle 50% or more of the opposing forces without loosing 50% or more of his or her own forces.
~He or she has more ships in the opponent's beggining zone than his or her opponent.
~He or she has double the amount of troops than his or her opponent at the end of the battle.
~He or she has lost no units.

If none of these situations occur, the battle is given to whoever owns the system or region. If one of the above scenerios occurs for both players, it is given to the owner of the system or region. If the battle is given to the owner of the system, the other players' surviving forces are not destroyed, but they are forced to leave the system via the closest warp-gate, or is pushed back to a region their forces control (for land battles).  

Any surviving land troops on a planet that has been completely taken over by an opponent are killed unless there is a ship capable of flying that turn docked on the planet.  If that is the case, they are put into that ship and sent ito the space around the planet.  Ships who are docked on a planet taken over by an opponent but not allowed to fly for the current turn are also destroyed.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 02:48:41 PM by GorgontheWonderCow »
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2005, 09:17:17 PM »
After the GM or nuetral player works out which ships are hit by what (this is the most difficult part of battle, and I don't think it should be too difficult...), they work out damage.  Here is a rundown of armor and weapon damage for ships:

Lazer: +1 damage to flank attacked.  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Photon: +2 damage to flank attacked.  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Gamma: +2 damage to flank attacked.  +1 damage for adjacent flanks (splash damage*).  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Missile: +3 damage to flank attacked. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash damage*). +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Machine Gun: +1 Damage to flank attacked.  May attack up to three flanks once or one flank twice.  +1 damage for each upgrade.
*splash damage will be calculated by taking the origional damage and cutting it in half, then rounding down.
Basic Armor:-1 damage from machine guns and missiles.  -1 all for each upgrade.
Lazer Shield: cuts one half power from lazer shots, rounded down. -1 all for each upgrade.
Photon Shield: cuts one half power from photon shots, rounded down*. -1 all for each upgrade.
Gamma Shield: cuts one half power from gamma shots, rounded down.  -1 all for each upgrade.

*here, when I say rounded down, I mean if you do 1 damage, you decrease that to .5 and round that down, so 0 damage.  Damage is rounded down, not shielding

Damage to men:
Machine Gun: +3 damage. This weapon may shoot twice at any one or two targets in range.  +1 damage for each upgrade
Lazer: +2 damage. +1 damage for each upgrade.
Anti-Tank and Rocket:+3 damage. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash). +1 for each upgrade.
Armor:
Basic Armor -1 from lazers and machine guns.  -1 all for each upgrade.

Damage to tanks:
Machine Gun: +1 damage.  This weapon may shoot twice at any one or two targets in range.  +1 damage for each upgrade
Lazer:+2 damage.  +1 damage for each upgrade.
Anti-Tank and Rocket:+3 damage. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash). +1 for each upgrade.
Armor
Basic Armor: -1 all.  -1 all for each upgrade.

It might look complicated, but it is really just adding and subtracting, and it could easily be put into a reference chart.

Any ship which choose to defend gets an additional 50% all damage reduction, rounded down.  If the ship choose to defend as a secondary command, then it is instead a -1 all.  Likewise, if a ship attacks as a secondary command, it only does 50% of the damage it normally would, rounded down.

Damage done to squads in combat remains in the squads' profiles until they are brought to a planet to be fixed.  This has a cost and the squad may not be used for one turn.  Once the squad is fixed, it is put back to full health.

Ships may be told to ambush before a battle.  A squad told to ambush will remain hidden to enemies in a region or system until they are told to stop waiting.  This will be put into their profile.  An ambushing squad's profile would look something like this:
Quote

Squad: X-Wing Fighters
R3
L4
C2
Weapon: Second Degree Lazer
Secondary: Basic Missile
Upgrades and Abilities:
2nd degree armor
AMBUSH -- THE MILKY WAY

If a battle erupts in the system or region which the squad is hiding, the owner of the squad is allowed to put those ships into battle.  If he or she chooses to do so, the opponent is not notified of those ships ambushing before the battle.  Ambushing ships also begin at "moderate" range instead of "long" range.  Counter-ambush commands may be made as secondary commands as a cautionary step.  Squad's with "ambush" in their profile are not allowed to move region or system or land on a planet while in "ambush" mode, but enemies will not be alerted of those squads in a system with "ambush" in their profile.  Ambushing units may attack, too, and will start at moderate range, as is normal.  The opponent being attacked will not be alerted of how many ships are attacking him or her if all the ships attacking are in "ambush" mode.  Also, ships being attacked only by ambushers may not have any secondary commands.

*Quick final note: when dealing with damage, only one shield is counted as blocking.  If you opted to get a lazer shield in addition to your basic sheild, you can't use both together to reduce stats.  So if I have a second basic shield (-2 all, -1 extra missiles and machine guns) and a second lazer shield (-1 all, -50% lazers) and I get attacked with a Third Degree Missile (+5 damage), I cannot say "well, -3 for my basic shield AND -1 for my lazer shield, so only one damage.  The shield that will block the most damage will be used, and the other disregarded.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 03:26:53 AM by GorgontheWonderCow »
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Legion

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Re: Combat
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2005, 05:42:57 PM »
wow long post...I have read most of it and it sounds very thought out and complex for an internet game, but I have not finished reading it.  I will try to finish it tomorrow, I have just been busy today.
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Re: Combat
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2005, 02:41:21 PM »
Things have been hectic the last few days so I haven't really gotten a chance to digest this.  I'll post some comments as soon as I have.  

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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2005, 02:42:45 PM »
I've put the combat damage into a chart to make it seem less confusing.  It's like a multiplication table--all you have to do is find the weapon on the left and the shield on the top, where they meet is how much damage is done.  Easy as cake.  Mmmmm, cake.  But I can't figure out how to post it as a chart.  It comes out like this....

Weapon - Shield (Ships)      Basic      2nd      3rd      Lazer      2nd      3rd      Photon      2nd      3rd      Gamma      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0      0      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0
Basic Photon      2      1      0      2      1      0      0      0      0      2      1      0
Basis Gamma      2      1      0      2      1      0      2      1      0      0      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      0      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0
Basic Missile (s)      2      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0      1      0      0      2      1      0      2      1      0
Second-Degree Photon      3      2      1      3      2      1      1      1      0      3      2      1
Second-Degree Gamma      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1      1      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      1      0      0      2      1      0      2      1      0      2      1      0
Second-Degree Missile (s)      3      2      1      4      3      2      4      3      2      4      3      2
Primary Lazer      3      2      1      1      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1
Primary Photon      4      3      2      4      3      2      2      1      1      4      3      2
Primary Gamma      4      3      2      4      3      2      4      3      2      2      1      1
Primary Machine Gun      2      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1
Primary Missile (s)      4      3      2      5      4      3      5      4      3      5      4      3
*Ships have 5 health on all sides.                  
**When dealing with subtraction and division, subtract damage first, then divide.                  
Weapon-Shield (Men)      Basic      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      2      1      0
Basic Anti-Tank      3      2      1
Basic Rocket      3      2      1
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      3      2      1
Second-Degree Anti-Tank      4      3      2
Second-Degree Rocket      4      3      2
Primary Lazer      3      2      1
Primary Machine Gun      4      3      2
Primary Anti-Tank      5      4      3
Primary Rocket      5      4      3
*Men have 4 health on each flank.                  
Weapon-Shield (Tank)      Basic      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      0      0      0
Basic Anti-Tank      2      1      0
Basic Rocket      2      1      0
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      1      0      0
Second-Degree Anti-Tank      3      2      1
Second-Degree Rocket      3      2      1
Primary Lazer      3      2      1
Primary Machine Gun      2      1      0
Primary Anti-Tank      4      3      2
Primary Rocket      4      3      2
*Tanks have 3 health on each flank and 5 health in front.                  

It's a nice, neat chart in Excel...

**MOD: take your time, Mr. P
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 02:46:28 PM by GorgontheWonderCow »
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2005, 11:59:42 PM »
My thoughts, in no particular order:

Space battles are 3 dimensional, not 2 dimensional.  This complicates things further

The "multiple command" system seems like it would quickly get complicated and difficult to handle for a neutral player (quite a chore, and it seems likely mistakes will be made in executing commands properly).

Attacking would also be a complicated and slow affair, as every individual squad would need such a set of commands for every battle, on top of unit stats.

While we could do this, and it certainly would involve an element of strategy, I wonder if a quicker system could be devised that would be less of a burden on a netural player.

However, that system does have the advantage of taking armour and weapons into account.


Here I'll present two alternative systems we could also consider:

Here's a potential fleet and one potential glance at the combat system to go with it for an alternative.

10 X Starfighters (1 Power [laser] each, 3 defense [evasion] each, size: small, target: small)

1 Heavy Battle Cruiser (7 power [laser], 5 power [concussion missile], 10 defense [shield], 10 defense [armour], size: large, target: large), Synergy: Adds 1 to evasion defense of friendly ships.

1 Missle Boat (10 power [phase missiles], 5 defense [shield] 5 defense [armour], size: medium, target: large) *Cloaking Device installed

Overall strategy:  Hit & Run (Evasion synergies are lost, combat lasts 1 round only, cloaked targets may not be attacked unless all other ships are destroyed)


Opposing force:
3 Z Starfighters (2 power [laser] each, 3 defense [evasion] each, size: small, target: small)

2 Heavy Battle Cruiser (7 power [laser], 5 power [concussion missile], 10 defense [shield], 10 defense [armour], size: large, target: large), Synergy: Adds 1 to evasion defense of friendly ships.

Overall strategy:  Concentrate and Destroy (Large ships add 25% armour bonuses for each large ship, all evasion bonuses are doubled, first strike bonuses are lost)


Notes:
Laser = standard weapon, 1 power deals 1 point to shields OR 1 point to armour.  Lasers are always fired before missiles
Concussion Missiles = 1 power deals 1 point to shields OR 2 points to armour, inutile against evasion
Evasion = attacking power must be greater than evasion to destroy.  Starfighter squads may total power and compare that to opposing evasion.  That many starships are lost.
Phase missles = ignore shields, do damage directly to armour.
Cloaking Device = grants "first strike"


Okay, so when combat commences, every ship has a size and a "target".  The target is the size of ship this ship will attack first.  In this conflict, the Hit & Run force is doing a brief assault (fleeing after 1 round), in an attempt to damage the opposing force but not destroy it.

So, let's pair up targets:
The starfighters (X & Z) attack eachother
The missile boat and cruiser (1) attacks the other cruisers (2).  The other cruisers (2) atack cruiser 1.

First thing is the cloaked unit takes a first attack with an element of surprise:  The missle boat deals 10 damage straight to the armour of Cruiser 2a, who is left with only 3 armour (because of the 25% strategy bonus; 13-10 = 3)

The cruisers then attack.  Cruiser 1 has to attack one of the other cruisers.  However, since both are large and attacking it, what it will attack is determined by a) if it can destroy one and not another, it will attack what it can destroy, and b) if it can destroy multiple targets, it will destroy the largest.  If it can not destroy any, it will attack the whatever it can do the most damage to, or the weakest.  So it will attack Cruiser 2a, since it can destroy it, and not Cruiser 2b.

Cruiser 1 deals 10 points of damage to Cruiser 2a's shields (7 laser, 3 missile), bringing them to 0, and then the remain 2 concussion missle power multiplies x2 to do 4 damage, which destroys Cruiser 2a (3-4 = dead).  Cruisers 2a and 2b fire on Cruiser 1 at the same time, however, dealing 14 points of laser damage (destroying its shield and bringing it down to 6 armour, and then finish it off with 20 points of concussive damage ([5+5]x2).

In the starfighter battle, Squad X has 10 power and 3 evasion, while Squad Z has 6 power and 7 evasion each (3 + 2 [doubled for strategy bonus]).

X deals 10-7 (3) damage to Z, which is enough to destroy both starfighters, and Z deals 6-3 (3) damage back, destroying 3 of the 10 starfighers in X.

And then Force 1 flees with its 7 remaining starfighters and missle boat, while Force 2 has only 1 battle cruiser.


So that's another potential system.  Fairly complicated on the unit-level, but much simpler in dealing with overall strategies.


I'll mention the next (even simpler) later.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2005, 12:30:26 AM »
That's a lot of stats to deal with.  It seems to me that it wouldn't be much easier to compare damage to evasion or evasion for multiple ships and then factor in things like first strike and special abilities of the such that than it would be to factor in the secondary commands.

But you are right, that is a rather deep flaw in my system, which I think could be fixed without loosing the strategic element.  Perhaps no secondary commands to units that aren't moving?  Or just one?

I may be missing something here, but how does the new system show 3D warefare any better than the one I posted?  Your units are specifically told to attack another unit.  It doesn't matter if that unit is above you or in front of you, or wherever else in the 3D atmosphere of battle, they still attack it.  As for movement, a range is a range.  Moving just tells them to get closer, whether it be down or up or whichever way...
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2005, 02:10:06 AM »
Actually, I don't think this system is necessarily any better than yours.  It's one alternative to consider, however.

It handles 3d combat by ignoring dimensions entirely.  There is no such things as flanks in this system.

Like I said, I have another system which I feel is simpler than both of these, which may also be worth considering.

The more ideas we have to look at, the better we will be to form an opinion as to what course to take.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2005, 01:33:11 PM »
I didn't mean to make it seem like I was bashing this system, I just don't think it seems much simpler.  If your other simpler system is still strategic then we should probably go with that one.  The simpler the better.  I never said that yours was being promoted as better than mine, just being promoted as showing 3D warfare better than mine.  

Anyway, I'm excited to see your other system, as this one is well done, so if you have a simpler version it should be readily applicable.
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Re: Combat
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2005, 03:59:55 AM »
The last one nixes weapon and armour types (perhaps someone can find a way to integrate them), and overly simplifies.


Sample army (space-based):

# Type (power/HP each)

Force 1:
10 X starfighters (1/3)
1 Heavy Battle Cruiser (5/10), adds 1 to power of accompanying starfighters [support synergy]
1 Missle Boat (10/5) *opponent must sacrifice largest unit possible, *cloaking device
Total power as set:  35

Force 2:
2 Z starfighters (2/3)
2 Heavy Battle Cruisers (5/10), adds 1 to power of accompanying starfighters (each) [support synergy]
Total power as set:  18




Tactics (we'd want AT LEAST 6 or 7 of these, if not 10 or 15):
Hit & Run  (Cloaking units may not be wounded if any non-cloaked units are present)
Mass & Destroy (support synergies are doubled)
Divide & Conquer (attack synergies are doubled)
Ambush

We'll only look at two of these for simplicity's sake, but assume they all match up on a grid with this result

Hit & Run vs. Mass & Destroy:  +20%/-50% casualties
Mass & Destroy vs. Divide & Conquer:  +50%/full cas


The first percentages are bonuses applied to the first strategy's overall power.

Assuming the first group takes a Hit & Run approach, and the 2nd takes a Mass & Destroy approach, the first group gets a total power of 42, and the second gets 22 (for the synergy bonuses).

The -50% casualties means we halve all damage, so Force 2 takes 21 points of damage, and force 2 takes 11.

Force 1 decides to put 5 damage on its battle cruiser, and sacrifices 2 X starfighters (for a total of 11 damage), force 2, because of the missile boat, is required to sacrifice one of its battle cruisers (10), and then gets creative, putting another 9 on its other cruiser, and then 2 on one of its starfighters, for a total of 21.

So force two is left with 2 starfighters (one crippled), and one crippled battle cruiser, while force 1 is left with 8 starfighters, 1 damaged battle cruiser, and its missile boat.


The point here is to have tactics which work as a sort of ro-sham-bo system, where each tactic has an innate bonus (by doubling synergies, etc.), but each tactic match up offers different bonuses/penalties, requiring players to outguess eachother, and figure out what tactics they think the other player will be using, and then trounce them with a countering tactic.

After combat, each player can assign damage as he/she likes to his/her own units.  It would be good if there was some sort of incentive to kill off units, though (such as special events/cards which can do damage to ships, or tactics which penalize players with wounded ships, or saying that 50% wounded ships can't hyperjump, or something.


The major advantages to this system is that A) is is very simple, B) there is fleet customization in special rules and synergies, C) there is TONS of strategy in the use of tactics, where players have to consider force size, synergies, and tactic matchings to try to outwit eachother in the tactic department.


In addition, we could include "admirals" and stick them on certain ships and say that they affect power/defense/synergies/tactics/etc., if we wanted.  Or if someone has a more innovated way of employing admirals, that would be better yet.

So, what do you think?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 01:49:35 PM by JadeKnight »
"Never argue with a fool; they'll bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience."