Author Topic: Combat  (Read 10122 times)

The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2005, 02:28:46 PM »
This may be too mico-management focused, but I'd like there to be room for specific strategies to be played out during the battles.

For example, you sent out a ship to attract the enemy's attention.  They see it, and thinking it's an easy kill, chase after it.  It takes off as fast as it can go, and they pursue.  Finally, it moves straight through an ambush of your own armada, which takes the opponent completely by surprise.  This is an example of a Loss Leader technique being used.  The most exciting part of any strategy game is the psychology being involved.  There should be room for psychology.

Rock-paper-scissors isn't exciting unless you can bluff, get your opponent to think you're attacking with one type, and then hit him hard with another.

Perhaps the rock-paper-scissors approach shouldn't be in armament, but in tactical strategy?  This could actually be made very easy, for example, when two armadas come into conflict, each admiral could choose a strategy, let's say one chooses "hit and run", and the other chooses "ambush".  In this case, the ambuscade would probably win the encounter (or have a big bonus, so you can take into account size of fleets, etc.).  Certain strategies could also manipulate interlocking bonuses, eliminating them, adding them, or altering what's already there.  So your interlocking bonuses depend on what type of strategy you use.  Make this manipulatable enough and there's lots of room for psychology/strategy.  For example, based on your ship configuration, your opponent may expect X strategy, but then you have something up your sleeve (say a certain officer or something) allowing you to pull Y strategy, etc.

Examples of potential strategies to choose:
Ambush
Hit and Run
Harass/Skirmish
Flee
Direct Assault
Divide & Conquer
etc.


I think this would be most effective if there are many (around a dozen) strategies to employ.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 02:28:58 PM by JadeKnight »
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Lieutenant Kije

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Re: Combat
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2005, 12:28:12 AM »
You all may be thinking this already...

I think that since this is a PBEM, you should be able to accomplish a lot in a single email.  Having a battle last several emails long would bog the game down.  One email from each combatant, resolution by GM, battle over.  That would be sweet.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 12:28:33 AM by Lieutenant_Kije »

The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2005, 02:02:40 AM »
One of the problems is micro/macro.

You want this to be really macro, so certain things need to be simplified.  Problem is, we really like micro around here.

FYI:  40k is a "micro" game.  You have to be really careful to mix it with a "macro" game, especially a fully customizeable one.

It's like the difference between Warhammer 40,000 and Epic/Space Marine/whatever they call it these days.
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Entsuropi

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Re: Combat
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2005, 03:34:28 PM »
Hence my initial suggestion of a single dice roll :)
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Re: Combat
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2005, 12:36:18 AM »
In the last two days I've designed and scrapped about a dozen combat systems.  This is really all of your chances to make a big contribution, as I am stumped and need to step back for a bit.

Your task: Design the combat system.

Here's what it has to do:

1) Handle both space and ground battles with the same system

2) Account for different weapon types and armors without really bogging down.

3) Be able to be resolved quickly and over email while still maintaining strategy.

4) Be able to describe what ships/units were damaged in each battle.

I've tried everything from basic Offense vs. Defense generic combat to rolling for each weapon system and allowing for individual ships to be targetted.  Nothing really worked the way I wanted it to.

I was also fiddling with the idea of range being such a big deal in space.  All long range weapons fire, then medium, then short.  That was working well but I couldn't fit it into any system I was working with.  I'm frazzed.

I was also trying to account for tactics that can be researched.  My example was an "Assault Strike" where a squadron gets to attack before all others but suffers a big hit to defense in following turns.

The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2005, 02:12:39 AM »
Well, one of your major problems is that you need to decide how combat is going to work.  Is it going to be fleet/army-based, or ship/tank (etc.)-based?  Again, this is a matter of micro and macro.

You don't want to deal with the armours and weapons of specific ships if you're going macro.  And if we're going micro, we'll probably have to rethink everything else, unless we're doing both, in which case there's no way combat'll be quick AND strategic (that I can think of)

So part of your difficulty may really lie in indecision between making this a micro game and making it a macro game.
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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Combat
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2005, 03:23:09 AM »
Yes, that basically sums up my problem.  Stupid scale.

I'd like for it to be a fleet game (for space combat), but where fleets are composed of individual units (ships).

For ground combat, we will again have individual units (Zarot Guard, Siege Tank Detachment, etc.) fighting on a few fronts.

Actually, I just had an epiphany (thanks, JadeKnight). The real problem I'm having is figuring out how the individual units interact on the large scale.

Just totalling offensive power and rolling a die is kind of boring, but workable.  The opposite, involving directing squadrons of units with orders gets much more complex but is more exciting, tactically.

The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2005, 03:25:10 AM »
Yes.

You could go the tally route, though that will be overly simplistic.  If you plan to take that route, I'd highly recommend a grid system involving strategies.
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Legion

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Re: Combat
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2005, 05:27:36 PM »
What if you design the combat system like this?

Leader: Sergeant Jarhead
Abilities: 5/6
Fleet Capacity: 8/10
Attack Power (AP): 10
Defense Power (DP): 8
First Strike (FS): 75/100
Formation: Defense Formation +2 DP (not added in)
Special Training:
1.      Mined Swiping (nullifies any bonuses that the enemy gains from use of mines)
2.      Tactics increases base AP (already added in)
3.      Improved Combat Communication (increase Capacity by 1 [already added in])
4.      First Strike (allows the unit to be able to have first chance to attack)
5.      Disarm (decreases enemies First Strike attack)
Technology Bonuses:
1.      Improved Armor (adds 1 to DP per 5 units [already added in])


You would not be able to have the entire tech listed, each fleet of troops would only be able to have certain ones, but I thought this would be a good idea on how to setup a fleet.  Ability would be how much training the leader could have.  The leader of the fleet passes all his training down to his troops so that they have the same training only while under his command.  To gain more slots you go up in rank.  Rank is determined by wins verses losses, and morale of your race.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2005, 10:12:05 PM »
Okay, I came up with a system, tried to submit it, the system said it was too long and told me to shorten it.  When I pressed the back button it was gone.  I'm not typing it up again right now.  It would take a long time to remember everything.  I am really, really unhappy right now.  Oh well, just know I have a system and will type it back up in the near future.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: Combat
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2005, 12:24:52 AM »
Sorry about that.

Every time I post something long, I hit CTRL + A, C before posting, just in case something evil like that happens.
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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Combat
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2005, 12:55:31 AM »
I used to lose emails to hotmail crashing all the time.  I've started copying them just in case.

But I feel your pain.

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2005, 03:38:12 AM »
Well, here's the deal, I copied it, out of paranoia, earlier, but forgot to right before I posted.  So I have about 1/10 or 1/8 of it saved now, and when I get up later this morning I will type up the rest and I will post it tomorrow.  I can, however, say a few basic things.
~Most battles can be determined after one e-mail from each person.
~I've gone ahead and come up with weapons with ranges, strengths and special abilities
~Same with sheilds, minus the special
~I wanted to go into commanders and whatnot, but decided I didn't have the time.  I'll add those later if you people like my ideas.
~The same system is used for land and space combat
~While you don't command your entire army to do the same thing, it isn't too micro-management based, individual ships aren't given commands...

I'm going to bed.  I'll type it back up and post it tomorrow, er, that is actually later today.
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Mr_Pleasington

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Re: Combat
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2005, 04:03:43 AM »
Sounds intriguing.

I can't wait to take a look.

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Combat
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2005, 08:17:41 PM »
What if we didn't do ship-based or fleet-based, but Squad based?  This way all of your troops aren't doing the same thing, but you don't have to micro manage a bunch of stats.  Squads could be five ships or men large.  They would have a stat run-down that looks something like this:

Squad: X-Wing Fighters
R 5
L 5
C 5
Weapon: Second Degree Lazer
Secondary: Basic Missile
Upgrades and Abilities:
2nd Degree Armor
Mine Detection

Not as many stats to deal with.  Here's what I was thinking for weapons: any squad would start with a basic lazer, photon or gamma weapon and a basic shield.  The sheilds and weapons could be upgraded for each individual squad for a cost, and this would be put right into the squad's stats.

Ships:
Lazer - Weak Vs Lazer Sheild.  Long Range, Weak.
Photon - Weak Vs Photon Sheild. Moderate Range.  Moderate Strength.
Gamma - Weak Vs Gamma Sheild.  Short Range, Splash Damage, Moderate Strength.
Machine Gun - Close Range. moderate. Three shots per turn, as compared to normal one.
Missile - Close Range, Splash Damage, Strong.  Cost per use.

Later, a squad upgrades to get a secondary weapon and a secondary shield at a cost.  No more weapons are allowed on a squad, and every ship in a squad must have the same weapons.  I'm guessing two or three squads would be in the average battle, they should be relatively expensive, but cheap enough that a player can have at least one in all of their systems if they want to be cautious.

Ground Units: These units would be made on a planet and placed in one of three strategic battle zones.  They can move freely between zones at the cost of one turn, and can move between systems only by being transported via a squad.  If a squad is destroyed while transporting ground units, the ground units are destroyed, too.  It takes one turn for a squad to load ground units and one turn to unload, while loading and unloading ships may not attack or be attacked by space units, may not attack ground units and may not move.

Men- Basic Ground Unit.  These units have no armor except a kevlar which is also lazer resistant.  These units have four health on all flanks. These units would start with one of two weapons and may later upgrade to carry two different weapons.  Units may not start with Anti-Tank.
Machine Gun - Strong Vs Foot, Weak Vs Tank.  Moderate Range.  Two Shots per turn.
Lazer - Moderate Vs. Men and Tanks.  Long Range.
Anti-Tank (heavy) - Strong Vs. Men and Tank.  Close Range, Splash Damage.  Cost per use.

Tanks are heavy ground support.  Tanks do not come in squads, they come as one unit.  When attacking a tank, attack like normal (right, left, center) as per your wishes, either side has only three hit points while the front has five.  They have upgradable armor and weapons, but may only have two weapons, which are on the tank when it is made.  Weapons upgrade.
Rocket - Strong Vs. Men and Tanks.  Close Range.  Splash Damage.  Cost per use.
Machine Gun - Strong Vs. Men, Moderate Vs. Tank.  Moderate Range.  Two shots per turn.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 02:51:30 PM by GorgontheWonderCow »
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!