Author Topic: Peks 4  (Read 5318 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Peks 4
« on: January 09, 2004, 08:04:48 PM »
Ok, this chapter is the longest so far, I think at all, lots of things happen.

you meet Caval. Tell me what you think about him.

i need to work out some details about the swimming hole scene.

I'm happy with the events at the festival, though I'm very unhappy with some of my pacing and a lot of my verbage. Console/condemn me on these points.

Are the legal points of Grwnd's judgements clear?

Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2004, 01:04:55 PM »
Caval: Big hairy dog. I'm not quite sure what you are planning to do with him. But I'm assuming that I will find out.

Swimming hole scene: I have no idea why they jumped in with their clothes on. Obviously, in early spring, the clothes aren't going to dry before they need to get dressed again. As children of such harsh winters I think they would know that. And what was Isbeth doing there? That seems a little strange. What was your reasoning?

Festival: I think polishing up the verbiage will help you fix the pacing. The thing I noticed in reading the chapter was that you tend to restate things, or insert unnecessarily sentences (ie they say what the reader will have already surmised). I printed this chapter out and notice that it was easier for me to make editing suggestions. I'll type them in and email them to you.

Legal points: Perfectly, though your characterization of the ambassador (?) was unclear.
" If i ever need a pen-name I'd choose EUOL, just to confuse everyone. " --Entropy

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2004, 01:32:33 PM »
A lot of this I'm playing DA to get you to explain more. Of course, we didn't have a conversation on this, so many others may agree with you. I'm just trying to find out. I'm not trying to invalidate yoru comments, I'm just explaining what I think. Please, please try to prove me wrong

Caval: big hairy, MYSTICAL dog. He hangs around for a long time, don't worry. He's not jsut a device for this chapter.

They jump in with the clothes on because they ARE children. They let their enthusiasm overcome their good sense. Of course they know better. That doesn't mean they'll chose it. Just like I know my time is better spent pecking out jsut a few words or writing even than it is playing video games, but I still do. ANd I'm 30. These guys are just 12.

Why doesn't it make sense that Isbeth shows up? She's just taking a walk near her home. She's not planning on swimming, just walking in the woods.

I tried to be vague with the initial impressions of where most people's loyalties were. The ambassadors aren't any different. I assume the lead ambassador (Judilek) is the one confusing you. His anger and kindness do seem contradictory. The reason why is explained in the next chapter, however.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2004, 02:51:49 PM »
This is probably DA, because I can be like that. ::)

Caval: Fine mystical. Whatever. Don't you think there's enough mystical stuff going on already? Why should I care about any more?

On the other hand, I thought it was a great way to show that Peks "knows" stuff, but after this blatant realization and acceptance by Peks you're going to have to convince me later that Peks tries to ignore/deny it.

Swimming: I remain unconvinced of their youthful zeal. I did not get the feeling that they were that excited.

Isbeth: Then you need to make that a whole lot more evident. Isbeth peeking through the bushes makes it look like she's looking for Peks and Birge specifically, and why she would look for them at a pool commonly used for bathing is beyond me. If she's really taking a walk, have her see them as she crosses the bridge or something. Also, I have a hard time believing she'd be allowed to go out walking, since the festival has started or is about to. Especially with her perfect hair and dress. You can trust me on this, dressing a girl up takes forever, she's probably still having her hair fussed with when all of this happens.

Judilek: No the anger/kindness didn't bother me. It was Peks reaction to him. The part where Jud offers to let Peks say goodbye to his mum and Peks looks up into his eyes. I had very little idea what you were trying to portray.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 02:57:15 PM by Treyva »
" If i ever need a pen-name I'd choose EUOL, just to confuse everyone. " --Entropy

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2004, 03:13:32 PM »
Caval: i though that it was evident in how he's discussed. He's not just a stray they pick up. He was intended to be Birge's pet (Peks says this). ANd Peks knows it somehow. So Caval is obviously connected somehow.

Swimming: the laughing and the jumping and splashing didn't show excitement? The waking up early and talking all the time about a festival?

Isbeth: She's a country girl and breaks with her father often. She slipped out. But I will rethink her path. Or at least make it clear that it's more of a swimming hole being co-opted for bathing.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2004, 03:34:43 PM »
as fofr the ambassador, do you mean where Peks sees "honesty though soemthing he couldn't identify?" I admit the wording needs brushing up, but it is, after all, a rushed first draft. But, naturally you don't know what else Peks sees. Peks can't figure out what this guy's holding out, so to give you more sympathy with him, I'm making it obscure for you too. It's not a deep dark secret, just something Peks doesn't have familiarity with. So I'm not telling you what it is, since the story is from his perspective.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2004, 05:10:23 PM »
Caval: Yes, I guessed all of that. I just didn't really care. He doesn't seem overly special right now. Maybe that will change.

Swimming: Jumping and splashing is two people having fun. Doesn't mean they are so excited that they forget to take off their clothes first on a cool spring morning when planning to go somewhere afterward (read: the reason they are excited). Again, waking up early, does show excitment, but it doesn't lead me to believe that they are so excited as to overlook that damp clothes look pretty silly, and are cold. You've made a big point about how it has only recently warmed up enough for Peks and Birge to sleep outside, and only the bulk and warmth of Caval makes that possible. Why are they submerging in a snow-fed stream in the first place?

Maybe what you want to do is to emphasize their chagrin when they realize what they've done. Either after they get their clothes wet, or when they realize that the clothes aren't drying fast enough. Maybe when they see the other men stripping first they realize that they've been stupid.

In reality, their wet clothes don't seem to make a bit of difference to anything,  so be a little more realistic, say they washed their hands, faces and necks, maybe their armpits. But your setting is too cold for swimming just yet.

Isbeth: I disagree with your reasoning. Granted, it might not bother many people, but I think your stretching it. Why does she need to be there at all? To see the boys naked? I can see that she would break from her father often, but not on this important day. Isbeth would need some special reason.

Ambassador: Rushed wording makes it really hard to understand what you are trying to say, or even what you think you are saying. It doesn't seem obscure, just sloppy. All I said was that I don't understand what your trying to portray Jud as in that scene. That's your (the author's) problem.

So what I'm trying to say is, in all fairness, if your writting is rushed and you're not willing to polish it up before you ask someone's opinion, expect some confusion due to the unpolishedness.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 05:15:08 PM by Treyva »
" If i ever need a pen-name I'd choose EUOL, just to confuse everyone. " --Entropy

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2004, 07:45:05 PM »
I'll wait for other people's feedback, but it seems to me that you're being too picky and putting too much modern middle class values on everyone's behavior. Peks and Birge don't have a reason to care about looking silly. They only have one or two sets of clothes anyway. Peasants just don't care that much. *shrug* I'm not trying to say dont' criticize, I just don't think many of these particularly apply.

And just to clarify, I'm not distraught at all that there's some confusion about his motivation. Rather I'm pleased. That's my point. You're not SUPPOSED to know what Judilek is.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2004, 07:51:56 PM »
I'm sorry, folks.  I totally spaced last night.  I'm going to go over my thinking of the chapter and post comments a little bit later today.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2004, 09:50:04 PM »
Caval:

Okay... it was kind of strange to have a big magic dog just appear (his bigness indicates his "specialness," so I figure he's magic or supernatural or something like that.  And it was a little strange to have him latch onto Birge, as if we needed something to make Birge cool besides being Peks'; friend.  It definitely throws the web of the plot out, by indicating that Birge is going to play a part in it all, but it kind of reminded me of...okay, please don't hate me or take offense...please...

It kind of reminded me of R. Jordan and the gimmicks he gives characters to make them interesting and plotworthy.  The story's really about Rand, but we've got to make other characters interesting too, so...we'll give them a big dog.  In the way I am categorizing things for this story Birge has moved from being an entry in Peks file ("friend") to having his own file, and the file is titled "dog boy."  I hope I'm making some kind of sense here.  If you could smooth into the dog, and Birge's independence within the plot (if that is to be the case) then it might make it easier for me.  Maybe Birge means "dog boy" in the old speech.   :)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 09:52:39 PM by Lieutenant_Kije »

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2004, 09:53:30 PM »
The pool:

I don't have a problem with them jumping in with their clothes on.  I just don't think their clothes would be only "damp" as you put it, when they put them back on.  They're soaked, as Peks states before Isbeth comes, and they're damp when she leaves.  She's only there for a minute.  And I guess I see a big difference between soaked and damp.  So I get the picture of boys in dripping wet clothes running to the fair and it seems kind of strange.

I think Isbeth dropping in on them is fine.  I just wondered why she didn't stay longer.  There's good opportunity for Birge to grow up here (as Peks did in the cave) or at least understand where Peks is now in relation to Isbeth.  It would make for good interaction between the characters.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 09:54:29 PM by Lieutenant_Kije »

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2004, 09:55:33 PM »
The judgment/ambassador:

The judgments of the Grwnd (or whatever) were very straightforward.  I saw no problem with that.  The development that it brings fits nicely with the story.  I was wondering how you were going to get Peks out of the village, and I was fairly sure he was to become a warrior ('cause, well, the typical cool hero is a warrior of some kind) and so it fit in with my expectations.  So for that particular development, I was expecting it without expecting it, if that makes any sense.

With respects to the anger and then kindness of Judilek: I was a little surprise at the mention of anger when we are first introduced to him specifically.  He must have a very quick temper, or have been starting to get angry earlier and we just weren't told.  The kindness I understood.  I can justify the anger and kindness together with the thought that perhaps Judilek doesn't care for the Grwnd.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2004, 11:28:18 PM »
***SPOILER****

Ok, yeah, I'm spoiling my own novel, but here's some explanations, and if you don't mind spoilers, you can give me feedback on whether you think these work or not

SPOILER ABOUT CAVAL: He's really supposed to be Peks' dog. But Gwyllion (not a permanent name, but what I'm considering re-naming the Dark Blade) and Mercurius know that Peks will reject his gift, and therefore Caval who he connects with the gift. So, to make sure Caval stays with him, they attached him to Birge. Birge is just beign used here, though he does get a genuine attachment to the dog.

Too bad Birge is killed before they're made knights. It's at this point Peks realizes he can continue down the path where he can't learn ANY useful skills, or he can accept that if he was using his gift, Birge would not have died. He then accepts the gift and Caval becomes his companion.

SPOILER ABOUT BIRGE: Birge's main role is to provide a foil. The novel is about growing up and what really being a man (or adult, I'm not as sure about my definitions of womanhood as I am about manhood, though I suspect they're similar). Birge never learns this. He can never accept that isbeth is a worthwhile human (this is why, though it's an interesting idea, Birge can't mature any at the swimming hole). He always has the wrong idea about what will make them adults, though those ideas change depending on his scenario.  He dies a haughty, willful adolescent, though he's not a total git: after all, he takes care of Peks and he helps other people. He jsut doesn't see that as being important to being a functional adult.

SPOILER ABOUT JUDILEK: Not much of a spoiler really, as this comes out in chapter 5. Judilek is mad because he takes a cut of the tribute/tax. If the tribute is two boys... well... it's hard to take a cut out of that (at least one that has any financial value). So he's mad at Grwnd. He's nice to the boys in the village, because he wants the town to see how cruel their Laird is. (Laird is the title, Grwnd is a name). It's kind of his revenge. He really doesn't care more about Peks and Birge than any other two boys, except when showing consideration will earn him points or get back at someone else. He's not entirely heartless (we leave that to Sir Ansel, the golden boy we meet later), but he's a noble, and what does he care about two peasant boys? Esp. ones that get in his way. I need to find a way to communicate the niceness being a method of revenge, but the rest of that is pretty plain in the ensuing chapters.

I don't explain any of that as it happens, because, as I said. Peks really doesn't know crap about anything at this point. He has to have this little diplomatic maneuvering explained to him, because he has no basis for getting it.

Oh, and Isbeth didn't stay because Birge's nakedness (well, rudeness) panicked her and so she bolted. she's used to them maknig fun of her, so when Peks doesn't come right to her aid, well, she figures she's just going to be teased and/or tormented by Birge, and she leaves.

Isbeth's feelings about the events of this chapter will be revealed after Peks returns to the estate (after Birge dies). they're not terribly secret though: disappointment, frustration, a little anger, and some bitterness, all pointed at Peks, who has to overcome them since he's realized he's in love by that point.

Does that tie it all together better?

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2004, 12:31:39 AM »
Birge: Yeah.  I guess I was operating under the assumption that Birge had a larger role in the story than he does, which isn't an unfounded idea given the story thus far.

Pool: Birge doesn't have to threaten flashing Isbeth.  Orhe can wait to do it.  I did get the feeling like he was acting kind of like a jerk to Isbeth at the pool, so if you draw that out a bit more it might fit in with what you want the character to do-draw contrast between Peks and Birge, and make Birge's demise more believable/acceptable.    

Caval: it's okay if he belongs to Birge, from what you explain.  He does still pop out of nowhere, narratively.  Which is still strange to me.

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Re: Peks 4
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2004, 07:35:49 AM »
He does have a big role. Just not as a character after about the half way point. He's still around for a while.

as for drawing out that scene, that means I have to come up with new insults. *sigh*

I'm not sure where else to introduce Caval.