Author Topic: Too Modern for Fantasy?  (Read 2177 times)

Chimera

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Too Modern for Fantasy?
« on: June 20, 2005, 05:05:20 PM »
In his Elantris Chapter 5 annotations, EUOL noted:
Quote
I have gotten a little grief from readers regarding Kiin's family. Some think that the family as a whole feels too 'modern.' It is an anachronism that, to an extent, I'll admit. One of the quirks about the fantasy genre is how it generally prefers to deal with ancient governments, technologies, and societies without actually making its characters conform to more ancient personality patterns. In other words, most fantasy main characters are people who, if dusted off a bit and given a short history lesson, could fit-in quite well in the modern world.

I'll be honest. I prefer the genre this way. I don't read fantasy because I want a history lesson, though learning things is always nice. I read for characters--and I want to like the characters I get to know. I like putting characters in situations and exploring how they would deal with extreme circumstances. I just don't think this kind of plotting would be as strong, or as interesting, if the characters weren't innately identifiable to a modern readership.

I found this observation of EUOL's interesting and thought I would throw it out for discussion in forum-land. Does it bother you when characters in a world set in the past display modern sensibilities? Or do you prefer it that way?

I find myself agreeing with EUOL. A character has to be 'modern' enough that a reader can relate and understand them. And if you are reading for character (which I, like EUOL, do), than you want to be able to relate to them. Completely backward thinking--such as racist thinking--is going to turn off a modern audience, even if it was appropriate at the time. So you as the writer have to ask yourself--do I be accurate and lose reader sympathy, or do I be more flexible and lose accuracy?

That was one of the problems I was having with Goddess of Yesterday (you can see my discussion in Books if you'd like). I couldn't completely relate to the idea of Greek honor being important enough to go to war and kill millions over, just so Menelaus could revenge the slight against him. But that is because of my modern sensibilities that says a war should be to help people, not to defend the honor of a king. And so I felt Helen as a character did not always work--I was supposed to accept some things based on the Greek worldview. Because I like Greek Mythology and I am a forgiving reader, I did. But someone else might not.

This whole idea of what's too modern comes up in writing groups a lot. Where do you draw the line between making your fantasy world (if it is set in the past) realistic and still make it appeal to readers who think modernly? What is too "modern"? Certainly some ways of speaking are too modern--slang specific to our world seems out of place, in my book.  I remember one time in my writing group with EUOL and Parker we had a discussion on telling time. I wasn't sure you could refer to the passage of time as seconds--that seemed too modern to me (the concept of a second, that is). But that then begged the question of how they told time. Unfortunately, this means that as the author you have to do research (not always fun in my book). Even if you are creating a unique way to tell time for your fantastic world, you still have to understand how it was actually done in the past--and more than just "Didn't they use those sun dial thingies?"

It is a delicate balance between being accurate and pleasing the audience. EUOL probably has the right idea--he says he wrote what he liked. He liked the way the family interacted, so even if some people felt it was too modern, he kept it. Sometimes I think an author has to do that--pick a way of doing it, trust himself, and know that he's not going to please everyone. But, from a writer's perspective, the concept of what is too modern does beg some pondering.

So I throw it out to all of you again. Have you been turned off by a book because it is too modern? Or because it felt too old-fashioned and it was hard for you to relate? What do you prefer in your fantasy fiction?
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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stacer

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 05:39:56 PM »
It depends on the book. If it's putting itself across as historical fantasy--i.e., set in our world, but with magic thrown in--I need to have as few anachronisms as possible. The main character can be more forward-thinking, but he or she will have to deal with people who think differently, or it just won't work for me. Same goes for historical fiction--I should let you read my last YA paper, which deals with the anachronisms of feminist-thinking teen girl characters in historical fiction set in pre-feminist times. Catherine, Called Birdy and The Midwife's Apprentice are both really good examples of it (and of a literary-minded modern sensibility thrown into medieval oral culture), which I don't have the time to detail for you, as I'm at work and the movers are coming tonight, so I have to get some things done before I leave early.

But--when it comes to alternate-world fantasy, such as EUOL's, anything goes. It can have a medieval technology and a modern cultural sensibility at the same time, because it's not based on this world. The author is creating a completely different culture, and as long as it's internally consistent, that's what matters to me.
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Chimera

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 06:01:49 PM »
I'd be interested in that essay. You can email it to me if you get the chance. I've read Catherine, Called Birdy and The Midwife's Apprentice. Both were books I liked--but that was because of the characters. But I did hear and read criticism such as you said for them not being as "accurate" as they could be. I'm on an email list for children's/YA writers in Utah, and there was a rampant discussion going on about historical fiction and whether or not a young person born in a historical period could actually show such forward-thinking. It is probably more of an issue in historical fiction than fantasy, as you said.

I had forgotten about that online discussion. Perhaps that is what peaked my interest in the first place.
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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Parker

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 06:14:39 PM »
I would say a lot of this depends on the reason the book was written.  What's driving it, in other words.  If it's character driven, then what sort of character?  I could imagine a book emphasizing the historical ideals of the characters--and being quite intriguing.  But it would take a ton of research to pull that off--research most people wouldn't want to do.

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 06:35:27 PM »
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I'm on an email list for children's/YA writers in Utah,


Yeah, utahchildrenswriters has some good discussions. I had to sign off after having been away a few years--there was too much content that was location-oriented, and it was clogging up my mailbox. You should check out the child_lit listserv, too, run through Rutgers (just google child_lit and Rutgers and you'll find it).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 06:36:30 PM by norroway »
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stacer

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 06:36:12 PM »
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I would say a lot of this depends on the reason the book was written.  What's driving it, in other words.  If it's character driven, then what sort of character?  I could imagine a book emphasizing the historical ideals of the characters--and being quite intriguing.  But it would take a ton of research to pull that off--research most people wouldn't want to do.


Exactly. Which is why I say if you want to focus it on anachronistic character, make it your own world.
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Chimera

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 02:19:41 AM »
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Exactly. Which is why I say if you want to focus it on anachronistic character, make it your own world.

But how far do you go in making it your own world? Do you make up slang terms? Do you make up the way they view the world? And how different do you make it from the current worldview?

I think every writer has to research at some point. Just like you have to know the writing rules before you can break them, I think you need to understand a culture in some depth before you can create your own. You need to have an understanding of human cultures in general. Like religion--religion has always been a part of human culture. It is like we have this innate desire to commune with something greater than ourselves, to know a creator. But how that religion is defined can be different. The Greeks had a pantheon of gods--a god for everything. The Native Americans believed in nature spirits. Judeo-Christianity believes in a monotheistic deity. And each religion seriously affected that culture's worldview.

So I think such relationships--the culture and the religion, the culture and the land, the culture and the technology--need to be considered when designing a "new" culture and its accompanying worldview.

Uh, I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore. So I'm going to stop talking (or, more accurately, typing). Sometimes, I'm so profound, I can't even understand myself.  ;)
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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stacer

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 03:31:09 AM »
I think Donna Jo Napoli does a good job of making a fantasy set in a historical world into her own version of that world. I think if the book is meticulously researched to the point of every detail being exact to the time period, and then you plunk down this spicy feminist in it, it raises questions. I'll email you the paper, now that I'm at home. (By the way, I don't vouch for the quality of the paper. It was my last paper in grad school, which was turned in the day after the movers picked up my stuff and the day before I flew to Seattle. So it was an absolutely crazy time, and I feel lucky that it is as coherent as it is. I want to go back and revisit it sometime when I've got time to spare, but life just keeps getting busier and busier--just got two callings on Sunday!)
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Parker

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 02:49:20 PM »
Chimera,

My point is that no author HAS to research anything--only what he or she wishes to.  I highly doubt that JK Rowling has pages upon pages of notes detailing the socioeconomic implications of Gringotts--or the way the religion of wizards differs from the Judeochristian standard of British Muggles.  But then there's the other extreme--Tolkein.  In other words, if an author wants to delve into the eating customs of his world, then he can--and it might prove to be fascinating.  If he chooses instead to sum up eating by saying "they ate lunch," then I doubt many people will have a problem with that.  Rowling emphasizes the fantastic--the fun.  Tolkein emphasized the mythic--the awe-inspiring.  Is one better than the other?  It's a matter of taste.  But in the end, a plot driven novel DOESN'T need to be deep, and a novel that centers around character development DOESN'T need to have a stunning plot. (See Henry James).

Sigyn

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Re: Too Modern for Fantasy?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 06:06:06 PM »
When I read a fantasy and a character acts in a way that is "modern", I usually need a reason why they act that way if the society itself seems historical. Does that make sense? Kiin's family in Brandon's book didn't seem too modern to me because I could completely believe that Kiin would choose to raise his family that way. Again, in the Blue Sword by McKinley, I don't have trouble with Harry (a girl, for those of you who haven't read it) acting more modern because the author gave me a background for why Harry acts that way.

I only have trouble when someone acts all modern when the world doesn't support it. I admit, I hate overt feminism in books because it usually is like this. What can be very interesting, though, is when an author comes up with a society that may seem "backwards" to us but gets us to sympathize with the characters anyway. (Though, of course, the author usually brings in an outside influence which then helps the society to be less backwards.) One example comes in the Honor Harrington books (it's SF, but the point still holds) where a society that has a strict sense of monogamy wants to get the help of a planet of polygamists. The cultures meeting is interesting as well as both sides coming to terms (or not) with the others.
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