Author Topic: Warbreaker: Free Ebook  (Read 132298 times)

happyman

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #825 on: June 25, 2009, 10:43:22 PM »
Quote

And what's up with the 2 of the 5 Scholars that we meet in the book (Vasher and Denth) both having reverted back to human form?  Of course, this question presumes that all of the 5 scholars were Returned (are we ever told that?).  So, presumably Denth, like Vasher, was also Returned and decided, like Vasher, to forego the god-like Returned status in order to ... do what? walk among normal folk and influence affairs?  Can we presume that their decision to do so was a result of the Manywar and its aftermath?  It seems like we've been given a rationale for Vasher to make this transformation (i.e., he did not like what he had become or what lengths he had to go to in order to end the Manywar), but what rationale would Denth have had for giving up god-like status?


The god-like status also means being instantly recognizable as a Returned to anyone with an education, thereby losing all anonymity in any human endeavor, and potentially getting imprisoned in the court of the gods.  The priests, religions, and people may worship the Returned, but they have also placed extremely strict controls and balances on their power and influence.  Without the ability to look normal, Denth would have been unable to live a normal life with any control over his destiny.
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Jurisprude

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #826 on: June 25, 2009, 10:58:28 PM »
***** SPOILER ALERT *****


The god-like status also means being instantly recognizable as a Returned to anyone with an education, thereby losing all anonymity in any human endeavor, and potentially getting imprisoned in the court of the gods.  The priests, religions, and people may worship the Returned, but they have also placed extremely strict controls and balances on their power and influence.  Without the ability to look normal, Denth would have been unable to live a normal life with any control over his destiny.

Okay ... so ... presumably during the Manywar Denth was involved in the faction that had all the Lifeless, and Vasher/Kalad/Peacegiver comes up with the more powerful weapons that trump the Lifeless, right?  So then, at that point Denth (and Shashara and Arsteel? had Vasher killed them by this point? presumably so, yes?) is forced to flee and, having his power base broken, he goes incognito as a mere mortal.

But at that point was the whole Hallendren god-religion in place?  Wasn't Vasher the "first" God-King, or he created the first God-King ... ?  hold on, skimming back over the epilogue ... nope, I don't see any mention of the religion being around during the Manywar ... maybe back in the Hoid's storytelling section with Siri?

Denth could have merely gone over to some other kingdom (other than Idris of course) and set himself up, retaining his Returned status? Although I guess going incognito makes sense after being on the losing side of the war.

little wilson

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #827 on: June 25, 2009, 11:14:12 PM »
Arsteel was killed by Vasher at some later point, because Jewels, who is not Returned (to my knowledge anyway...) knows him. So does Tonk Fah. I got the impression that Arsteel was killed fairly recently. You're right about Shashara, though. She was definitely killed during the Manywar.

I'm pretty sure that Vasher and Denth were one the same side...until Vasher killed Shashara. That's when they went their separate ways, and probably when Vasher realized he had to stop the war, and brought his Phantoms back to Hallandren. And since he had a lot of places to set back on the right track, he put a God-King in place, leaving the breaths to control the Phantoms with him. Then he went incognito and left.

And Denth probably went incognito so as not to give his position away in his search for Vasher....
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Jurisprude

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #828 on: June 26, 2009, 07:08:42 PM »
***** SPOILER ALERT *****

Why are "the current crop of Hallandren gods . . . so much more erratic than their predecessors"? (as thought by Dedelin, ebook pg. 31)

I know that we get this idea more fleshed out later in Lightsong's interactions with Allmother, but is there ever an explicit explanation as to why the current crop of gods has become more selfish and "erratic" than their predecessors?  Is this just a natural outgrowth of a mature socio/economic/theocratic society that is beginning a downward slide, or could there be other explanations that fit in line with the underground Pahn Kahl/Bluefingers plot to bring down Hallandren?

If the latter, I would theorize that as part of his overall plan to incite war between Hallandren and Idris, Bluefingers employed a strategy of coddling the Hallandren gods to the point that they did not care about the Hallandren people, thus introducing a potential element of unrest into Hallandren society.  The parts of Bluefingers' plan that are explicitly mentioned in the book include swaying/bribing the various priest factions to increasingly argue for war with the Idrians, while at the same time fomenting the Idrian underclasses in Hallandren itself.  Could it be that an implied part of his plan also included subtly pushing the Hallandren gods toward more indolence and self-absorption?

Maybe there are more clues in the various Lightsong musings, but I haven't gone back looking for clues yet.

zas678

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #829 on: June 26, 2009, 11:48:37 PM »
I don't think so. I think it's less of scheming on Bluefinger's part and more just a weakness of the religion.  After all, if only the best people are willing to give their breath, you'll end up with people who aren't willing to give up their breath.
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Renoard

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #830 on: June 28, 2009, 04:42:23 AM »
Here's a question.  All the "god's" have a specific quest they returned to complete.  Seems the religion inhibits who they can affect, because their imprisoned.

But all that begs the question, who are Denth, and Vasher here to "heal".  They've been around a very long time.  Also, how does Vasher remain alive, without consuming breaths, as when he was in jail at the beginning.  A lot of loose ends there.
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happyman

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #831 on: June 28, 2009, 11:55:10 PM »
Here's a question.  All the "god's" have a specific quest they returned to complete.  Seems the religion inhibits who they can affect, because their imprisoned.

But all that begs the question, who are Denth, and Vasher here to "heal".  They've been around a very long time.  Also, how does Vasher remain alive, without consuming breaths, as when he was in jail at the beginning.  A lot of loose ends there.

We don't know if the religion's interpretation of the Returned is correct.  By making them rulers, they can influence things, though.  The Returned may be imprisoned, but I must admit that it is a very nice imprisonment with a decent amount of power.  Note, however, that their quest may not necessarily be to heal somebody.  That may just be an act of mercy they perform after finishing the quest.  So asking if Denth and Vasher have to heal somebody is not as relevant ask asking what they were supposed to do.  And for Vasher, I think the term Warbreaker may be sufficient.  I dunno about the others, though.  They seem to have failed...
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pirsquared

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #832 on: July 01, 2009, 06:54:49 AM »
I recently finished Warbreaker, and I thought it was awesome!  The only problem I saw was that God King does seem a little too similar to Lord Ruler.  God=Lord, King=Ruler.  But other than that, the magic system was ingenious (as always) and the plot was amazing.

Quote
We don't know if the religion's interpretation of the Returned is correct.  By making them rulers, they can influence things, though.  The Returned may be imprisoned, but I must admit that it is a very nice imprisonment with a decent amount of power.  Note, however, that their quest may not necessarily be to heal somebody.  That may just be an act of mercy they perform after finishing the quest.  So asking if Denth and Vasher have to heal somebody is not as relevant ask asking what they were supposed to do.  And for Vasher, I think the term Warbreaker may be sufficient.  I dunno about the others, though.  They seem to have failed...

I got the impression at the end of the book when Lightsong healed the God King that he sort of knew it was time to do what he had come to do.  My theory about the Returned is that they are very much like awakened sentinent objects (like Nightblood): they are given one command and that command sort of defines them.  In the case of Nightblood, the command is "destroy evil" and it was given to him by Vasher and Shashara.  In the case of the Returned, I think that the person gives himself a command, causing his body to be awakened as an entity.  So the 'quests' of the gods/returned are actually just a command they gave themselves.  I agree that it definitely doesn't have to be healing someone.
In the case of Denth and some others, it would be possible according to my theory to have an evil quest, if the person gave themselves an evil command.  However, since Denth used to be good, I think this is unlikely.  Instead, I suggest he has an obscure command, like Nightblood's "destroy evil".  Certainly Vasher could be considered 'evil' in Denth's mind.

On the subject of Vasher's and Denth's abilities to do things that most Returned can't, I would point out that they have been living for a far longer amount of time than the others.  Also, the priests do hold quite a bit of information back from the gods living in Hallandren.

I totally agree that Clod is Arsteel.

Now, I would like to propose that there are actually 8 BioChromatic entities: four spontaneous, and four non-spontaneous - spontaneous meaning awakened and commanded by oneself and non-spontaneous meaning awakened and commanded by others.  So the 4 non-spontaneous would be Nightblood-type things, awakened objects, lifeless, and a sort of sentinent creature created from a dead human body the same way Nightblood was created (this last one would be very dangerous - imagine Nightblood as a person).  The four spontaneous entities would be Returned, returned lifeless, returned objects, and returned sentinent objects (if Nightblood was destroyed, he could choose to return as the last of the four).  A returned lifeless or returned object seems improbable, since they would have to be awakened by themselves, but if you commanded an object or lifeless specifically to return if it was killed, maybe that would work.

One question: why didn't Vasher just use his own army to destroy the Lifeless army?  He could have stopped them on his own, without the God King's help.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 06:58:06 AM by pirsquared »

Hero of Ages

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #833 on: July 01, 2009, 09:11:33 AM »
I'm not sure that a lifeless could be made sentient, but maybe.

According to your theory about the returned, it is not possible for lifeless and awakened objects to return.  Since they don't have a will of their own they cannot command themselves to return.  And even if commanded to by the awakener, I still think that it would be to complex a command and too costly in the amount of breaths to be feasible.

To answer your question about why Vasher didn't use Kalad's Phantoms, he couldn't he gave up his "extra" breaths to the 1st God King, and they were passed down to Susebron.
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pirsquared

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #834 on: July 07, 2009, 02:12:41 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure that a lifeless could be made sentient, but maybe.

Well, it wouldn't really be a lifeless anymore.  It seems to me that if you can awaken an object to sentinence (nightblood), you should be able to awaken a dead body to sentinence in a similar way.

Quote
According to your theory about the returned, it is not possible for lifeless and awakened objects to return.  Since they don't have a will of their own they cannot command themselves to return.  And even if commanded to by the awakener, I still think that it would be to complex a command and too costly in the amount of breaths to be feasible.

You're probably right about that.  But it's still theoretically possible, even if it would require millions of breaths.

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #835 on: July 07, 2009, 05:17:18 PM »
To answer your question about why Vasher didn't use Kalad's Phantoms, he couldn't he gave up his "extra" breaths to the 1st God King, and they were passed down to Susebron.

If they are already lifeless, they do not need breath to  be commanded, only the command words to use them.  The same way that lifeless army works.  The only reason they were not used before this is that no one realized what they were.  If they thought they were normal statues they would not try to break the command word or words.

Czanos

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #836 on: July 07, 2009, 08:26:18 PM »
Actually, I'm pretty sure the statues were not lifeless, but awakened objects. It is simply a regular statue with bones arrayed inside, and an Awakener has to Awaken the bones with a command, giving them enough breath to be strong enough to manipulate the body as their own, much the same way that Awakened objects are stronger than their original parts and pieces. (Or maybe it's more similar to Vasher's straw men in the Prologue, Awakening something (the stone) with fewer breaths because of the human focus (the bones.))
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happyman

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #837 on: July 08, 2009, 04:03:29 PM »
Actually, I'm pretty sure the statues were not lifeless, but awakened objects. It is simply a regular statue with bones arrayed inside, and an Awakener has to Awaken the bones with a command, giving them enough breath to be strong enough to manipulate the body as their own, much the same way that Awakened objects are stronger than their original parts and pieces. (Or maybe it's more similar to Vasher's straw men in the Prologue, Awakening something (the stone) with fewer breaths because of the human focus (the bones.))

This would be more plausible if Vasher hadn't turned control of the Phantoms to Susebron by telling him a command phrase.

No, the Phantoms are Lifeless.  I believe Brandon mentioned at some point that this was actually a change he made late in the revision process.  Before the change, they had been Awakened objects.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #838 on: July 08, 2009, 04:38:37 PM »
Page 582: "They are Lifeless."
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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #839 on: July 08, 2009, 10:55:47 PM »
Whoo-hoo! Brandon said that Clod was Arsteel during twitter chat!
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