Author Topic: Warbreaker: Free Ebook  (Read 234568 times)

dawncawley

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #450 on: February 22, 2007, 03:47:51 AM »
I agree that it seems kind of romance novel at the start of the chapter, but I don't think you can have romance in a book without some of it sounding that way. I think it did really well without being nasty. Sorry, what I mean is, it seemed very much like a young lady in love with her first young man. I thought it sounded very "first lovish" which seemed true to Siri's character to me.

I like that Seb seems to be gaining a bit of a backbone, and looking to take charge of his kingdom. I see some problems arising, such as the priests and other Returned, but I think it will make for fantastic reading.

I agree that the way Siri said she would sit with Lightsong should be more clear, as DavidB mentioned.

 I know you promised more meat in next week's chapter, but I wasn't disappointed with this one. I know it was kind of short, but I thought it was good.

amyface

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #451 on: February 23, 2007, 02:58:16 AM »
I really enjoyed this chapter. I'm very glad that seb is acting like a king. That's good. I'm happy. I didn't think it was too romance novelish... although I've never read a romance novel. I would have to say that waking up like that is usually a time when I have very corny thoughts... so I would expect her to be the same way.

My only annoyance is actually in this thread... we don't need to pick out gramatical errors... there are people who will be paid to do that before the book is printed. (Sorry that's been bugging me).

YAY for Warbreaker!
Dude, no no really, DUDE!

firstRainbowRose

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #452 on: February 23, 2007, 08:50:25 AM »
I liked the new chapter as well.  Personally, I liked the bit of cheesy romance because it's a break from the thoughts and plots for a little bit, which will be quite refreshing by this point when you're reading it from cover to cover and it's about 2 in the morning.  (Which is what I would be at.)  And it's enough that I can't wait to see more... but as long as it's early Wednesday!  *peace*
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

DavidB

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #453 on: February 23, 2007, 02:48:17 PM »
... we don't need to pick out gramatical errors... there are people who will be paid to do that before the book is printed.

You're absolutely right. I apologize. I'll try to keep better control of my inner psychotic pedantic proofreader in the future.

I agree that it seems kind of romance novel at the start of the chapter, but I don't think you can have romance in a book without some of it sounding that way.

When I said that that one line sounded "cliche-romance-novel", I meant for the emphasis to be on cliche, not romance novel. As in, how many zillions of stories have described the male hero as "A God of color and beauty, his body as perfectly sculpted a statue," or some slight variation? (Probably about as many as have "characterized" the female hero by having her contemplate her "long, slender hands" and "flowing hair" in a mirror.) Except that, unlike in all of those cases, Susebron is literally a god whose powers manipulate color and beauty. So this line subverts that cliche. I can't decide whether I like it or not.

There are, come to think of it, plenty of other common phrases that Siri could use literally about Susebron. He's radiant. He brightens her day. She sees things differently when she's with him. He's brilliant. He's vibrant. When he smiles, his whole face lights up. He sparkles in social situations. Et cetera.

Drerio

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #454 on: February 24, 2007, 12:23:54 AM »
In response to firstrainbowrose (Feb 20), I think the question of what the actual source of power is for breath should be examined when fleshing out the magic system.  FRR mentions that black might be used as a color source since it is the combination of all colors, and in the case of dyes, this is true.  However, when thinking of light, black is actually the absence of color, with white being a combination of all colors.  Color as we perceive it in daylight is merely the reflection of specific wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation off of a surface, while those which we do not see are absorbed.  Therefore, when thinking of green plants, the leaves actually have pigments specifically designed to absorb other wavelengths to convert them into useable energy.  So, what is it exactly that is drained from that surface that is required for this magic system?  Is it the dye itself?  Alternatively, is there something about the reflected energy (light) coming off of the surface which is special, in which case a whiter fabric would be of more use.  If the later is true, it would certainly seem that bright blue or purple fabrics might be more powerful per square inch than a red fabric.  This might be true since red has a longer wavelength (and less energy) than purple per photon.

Perhaps this is too much detail...

DavidB

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #455 on: February 24, 2007, 12:35:38 AM »
More questions!

If your potted plant dies, and you awaken it (which should be possible, since stuff like rope and cloth is just dead plants, really),
  • Can it still do photosynthesis? (But does being grey make it less efficient?)
  • Can you command it to grow, and make flowers?
  • Can you command it to make seeds? If you plant them, do they grow? Into live flowers, or Lifeless ones?

If a pregnant woman dies (but the fetus is still alive), and she is turned into a Lifeless, can she still carry the baby to term?

Are Lifeless capable of, er, reproduction? Say an awakener's son and daughter-in-law died, and she really wanted grandchildren.... (Of course, there are other, ickier possibilities, but then, there's probably a certain segment of the Halladren population who would be into that, even if, or perhaps especially if, Lifeless aren't, um, fertile.)


dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #456 on: February 24, 2007, 01:12:28 AM »
Aren't most Lifeless filled with ichor-alcohol?  Ich!

But yes, I can totally imagine there'd be a large black market for Lifeless made from attractive people who died young.

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce.  Awakened things don't continue the processes that sustained them in life: they don't breathe, have no heartbeat, etc.  (Right?)  So I think the answers to most of your questions would be no, but again with the caveat that this is a fantastic world so I don't necessarily expect it to conform to the laws of our universe...

MattD
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:02:27 AM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

vadia

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #457 on: February 25, 2007, 06:02:22 PM »

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce. 

Unless you are wrong -- for the Returned it does seem to be a life-force and not an animating force.  (maybe they should have an ichor alcohol transfusion.  du!)

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #458 on: February 25, 2007, 06:13:32 PM »

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce.

Unless you are wrong -- for the Returned it does seem to be a life-force and not an animating force.  (maybe they should have an ichor alcohol transfusion.  du!)

It's certainly possible that I'm wrong.  But the Returned don't respire, do they, or undergo the other processes of life?  They are sustained by magic, basically sentience plus animation.

MattD
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 06:26:07 PM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

Master Bombadil

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #459 on: February 25, 2007, 08:07:30 PM »
I have finally crawled back onto the edge of the Earth! 

In regards to how color is used in Awakening:

We know that black can be used to Awaken (because Vasher has used it), that black is the absence of light and the presence of pigment; that when color is 'drained' from an object is becomes gray, and that gray is the presence of light and in Hallandren (I think) the absence of pigment.  So I think that Awakening drains pigment, not reflected light, and could be used in the dark.

On lifeless:

While a Lifeless doesn't need to breathe, they might be able to breath on command.  Also, while I'm sure a dead plant could be awakened, I would like to know whether it could be made into a Lifeless.

And the last two chapters:

I liked the scene where Lightsong took over the Lifeless.  It was such a departure from his usual character that it really underscored the way he was taking responsibility.

Is the thing about the God King being able to break lifeless quickly true, or propaganda?

As for the 'romance' scene, I got a laugh out of using cliches literally.  If its an unconventionally used cliche, does it still count as a cliche?

It sounded to me like Siri was going to wait until the big meeting and talk to Lightsong then.  But some clarification would be good, and, if she is waiting, why?
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

Tjaeden

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #460 on: February 26, 2007, 08:32:21 PM »
I love the ongoing discussions of the nature of Awakening.  Most of the time, I would fall right in and begin dissecting every little nuance and introducing my own hypotheticals.

However, there is something that bothers me about the whole thing.  And I want to say that it goes back to the naming of the magic system- "BioChroma."  It's scientific name implies a scientific nature that we all want to immediately get into and apply to real world physics.  There is definitely nothing wrong with that.  In fact, if this were Mistborn, I'd be all over it.  But within this story, it just doesn't fit.  Vasher's chapter teaching Vivena was as cliched as any other magic system being explained by "the-teacher-telling-the-new-student" method.  Technical terms are thrown out there like new toys from Sony given to a 3 year old.  All flashing lights and noise - but in the end it's just another thing to slobber on.

Why I think it doesn't work is the way Brandon writes about it:  what and how it deals with colors - its just too poetic.  This system is so unique, elegant, and beautiful, that the same old treatment of the "rules" just won't work.  I've read Brandon's article on how magic systems should have rules (or at least the harder systems).  This system can have rules, but the technical terms and treatment by Vasher just don't mesh with how the magic is delivered.  I keep thinking of those art commercials that were on TV awhile back.  Without art, the children that would come home would be boring and dull.

For example, what about a daisy?  Just a simple beautiful flower we can all picture one (I hope).  But what if it was constantly referred to as Bellis perennis - its scientific name?
Just for a moment, stop thinking about the colors as chemical (pigments) or physical (refracted light) and instead think just of the colors.  For example, what if we had a cup of blue?  It would be like touching music (from the Rhapsody series).

Breaths, as written, are some kind of Emotional Investment of Life.  Whatever "Life" is, it takes the form of  color.  It likes to fill containers made for life (things have to be humanoid, for example). 

Constantly, Brandon repeats that the colors were not brighter, just more rich.  Like turning up the saturation on your TV.  But there is not physically more of something - only people with enough Breath are able to see the changes.  He also compares the seeing of colors as an art style.  When describing the palaces of the gods, and more importantly - the Artisan's Script.  I think this is our biggest clue to the nature of this magic system. 

The only physical change is the greying.  Where does the color go?  That is the question driving the science part of the debate.  But what if Awakening is an art form?  What if the mind sees the color shift as a measurement of beauty?  What if, when forcing Breath into an item, the inherent magic of that item is suppressed?  Not removed, or taken, but hidden?  Things closest to Life are easier to Awaken, i.e., they take less breaths.  "Filling a container" as Vasher says may not be the right analogy.

So, a red awakened shirt appears grey because its own innate power (minuscule, most likely) is suppressed.  But it can move.  There is magic, another beings emotional life power, animating it.  This power is strong enough to override the item's basic designed function (which may explain shapes). 

That's my take on it.


What we Know for Sure
Two things are needed to Awaken: 1) Breath, and 2) Intent.  It seems a given that 1 breath (your starter kit) is not enough to do much.  It seems plausible that you could store it, as Vivena did, and become a "Drab."  So, collecting Breath from others is important - an Awakener needs more emotion/life/whatever, just to do cool magic tricks.  The second thing, Intent, leads to Commands.  Its not just enough to know a command, but you have to form the intent in your mind.  Vivena's first awakening proves that the knowledge of Commands is not needed (just easier).
Once I dreamt of death /
now it dreams of me,
And only rats and rotting flesh /
can hear my silent plea...

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #461 on: February 27, 2007, 02:07:16 PM »
A couple of comments, Tjaeden:

1) Sound/speech seems to be required to Awaken, along with Breath and intent.

2) It's not the thing that is Awakened that is turned gray, it's surrounding material that the Awakener is  "grounded" to.

3) I largely agree with your comments on the magic.  I don't think it's a bad thing that there are both scientific and religious takes on Awakening, if that's part of the story that Brandon wants to tell; or both pragmatic and artistic depictions.  But I feel right now like the magic system is spread a little thin: there are a lot of good ideas but we don't get a large enough dose of any of them from any of the characters.  (For example, if Vasher's perspective is the academic one, shouldn't the style and content of his inner thoughts in past chapters be more in keeping with his highly academic exposition in the last V&V chapter?)  I do think that part of the reason that people have so many questions is as you say that the scientific language encourages it; another part though is that there are so many core aspects of the magic that we don't understand, in terms of how it works and what it can do.  And because the story is essentially a mystery, we're all trying to figure it out.

New question (getting away from the science a bit): will the names of the Returned Gods be significant to the story?  "Blushweaver" of course seems compelled to try to live up to her name -- and the idea of a weaver suggests a certain scheming nature.  "Allmother" suggests several possibilities, but in some ways is most interesting because of the notable absence of mothers in Brandon's stories (has anyone else noticed this -- Sarene, Raoden, Siri and Vivenna all have ruling fathers but no mothers?).  "Lightsong" is most interesting of all though given that the two parts of his name are the two things -- light and sound -- that may be most integral to Awakening.  (I know the light part is debatable, but the phrase "iridescent tones" does suggest the importance of light.)

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

firstRainbowRose

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #462 on: February 28, 2007, 06:51:16 PM »
Meh, I've decided I don't like my e-mail.  It's not telling me when there are new posts *glares at it*

In regards to the plant questions, I think you could awaken a plant, command it to grow seeds, but if you planted them nothing would grow.  I don't think if a pregant woman were to be turned into a lifeless the child would end up being killed by the process.  (All a lifeless' blood is taken out after all).

Another question about awakening objects and color.... could you command something to have color, or change color?
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

Tjaeden

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #463 on: February 28, 2007, 07:40:42 PM »
I think the commands / awakening are only for "kinetic" actions.  All example we have read show "things" that are commanded with breaths to perform physical movement.  Lifeless may get more complicated, but only because the human body is the most complex moving organism.

You couldn't Command a Lifeless to write poetry - but you could Command one to make writing motions.  Maybe even copy things.  You couldn't Command a plant to bear seeds, but you could Command one to drop/disperse them.

Regarding my earlier posts, I came up with something wonderfully elegant and simple today.  Check it out.

Magic - as written in a story - is either:

1. an Art form described as a science.  This is how 90% of fantasy describes magic.
2. a Science described as an art form.  This is what I think Brandon has done in Warbreaker. 

Trying to interchange the two within a story will lead to confusion.  Not officially deciding on one or the other is about the same.  Characters within a story debating the two I think would be okay.

If this was applied to Vasher's chapter where he tries to teach Viv, we have #2 being presented as #1.

Again, this goes to Brandon's literary intent and to what he is trying to create within his world.  I think that his eloquent writing so far on Breaths leads to #2, even though he prefers #1 (as evident by his article on magic rules).  He can do either - its his world.  The poet in me aches for something beautiful, and the Iridescent Tones comes as close to magic as true Art as I have ever read.
Once I dreamt of death /
now it dreams of me,
And only rats and rotting flesh /
can hear my silent plea...

EUOL

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #464 on: February 28, 2007, 09:48:55 PM »
You guys are awesome.  That is all.  One response:  I AM thinking of changing BioChroma because my agent and editor both agree with you guys--they like that Vasher uses technical terms when we get to the right chapter for him to do so. 

So, let me know which of you would like it changed, and feel free to throw out suggestions.  My thought right now is to simply call it Iridescent Breath, and in places where I've used BioChroma use the word Iridescence (capitalized) instead.  "He didn't have much Iridescence."  or "He gave away his Iridescent Breath."

Chapter forty-nine

A longer chapter, finally, as promised.  You could say that from here on, the pace picks up a little bit....
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