Green Day

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

For example?

Not to get off topic, but I love Thoreau.

How about starting with his vastly over-rated Walden? The point of hte book is that anyone can buck off society and go live on their own sweat and labor.

Nevermind that I'm living on the property of my very rich friend and spend about as much time there as I do at home.

It just doesn't follow if you do more than look at the touchy feely sentiment of the words.

But like I said, his writing style is brilliant. His use of words and sounds in combination is worth reading, even if his ideas are foolish. And, well, he does give a great defense of the approach to literature comparatists use, so I have to give him props for that.

[Fellfrosch]

But what does he say about pie?

[House of Mustard]

And so your evidence that his ideas are sophomoric is...?

I'm fine if you say that it's not a philosophy you ascribe to, but to say he's poorly informed and immature (sophomoric) is something else entirely.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

did you *read* my post?

The point of his book is that anyone can do something and he's going to demonstrate it. And then he goes to demonstrate nothing like his point. Isn't that sophomoric?

[Fellfrosch]

I have to admit, Mustard, that he did give some pretty recognizable evidence about why he thinks he's sophomoric.

[House of Mustard]

First, your explanation of his premise seems wrong -- he wasn't arguing that people should flee society.  His premise was that people were too caught up in society.  He used his time in the woods to illustrate getting out of society -- not offer an example of what everyone needed to do.

It's not a manual that teaches you how to live the life of a hermit -- it's philosophy.  It's not a wilderness survival textbook.  The incidental facts about how much time he spent in the woods are irrelevant -- the important part is whether or not he found alternative ways to view civilization.  Honestly, I don't know how someone can get caught up on whether or not he actually spent every day in woods or whether his mom did his laundry.

[Nessa]

He was just lazy. Pursuing a philosophy out of a desire to be able to do nothing except write.

Wait. Is that a bad thing?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

no. He specifically posits in Walden that one can, and should, live less connected to society. He goes into the woods to demonstrate that everyone has the ability to do it.

The problem with that position is that in order for him to make this new life less connected to society he borrows land from his wealthy friend to do it, then doesn't have to survive very long in the wilderness by himself because of his constant visits to said friend (visits he mentions in his own work).  He cuts very few ties and he gets by based on his connections. How is that living deliberately without the baggage of modern society?

So yeah, if I knew a guy who had a nice house on some lakefront property I could go out there and write some poetic words about how the animals act too. But I'm not going to claim that everyone can cut some of their dependence on modern society that way.

I never said that it was supposed to be some sort of survival guide. I'm saying that the actual practice of his philosophical experiment doesn't jive well at all with the philosophical point he was making.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Thanks... now we have two ads for Walden University you two. And no one has brought us pie.

Or cake!
They could bring us cake!

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Speak for yourself. I got pie for lunch on my boss.

Anyway, I don't intend to talk about Thoreau anymore. I made a throwaway comment about my opinion of him. I don't intend to try and convert anyone to my point of view. I just want it on record that I'm not just vilifying him because I dislike his philosophy. My opinion of him is based on how he formed his philosophy and communicated it.

[House of Mustard]

While you make good points, I still can't see throwing away his good philosphical ideas merely because his experiment was flawed.  But then again, I never thought that the experiment was there to prove anything -- merely to give it the ideas a concrete illustration  (no different, in my mind, from any supernatural myths from religion or philosophy -- they're necessarily not true or literal, but they help you understand the ideas.)  (Not that I'm putting Walden in an equal status with religion.)

However, realizing that this is not an argument that either of us can win, since we can't agree on very premise, I'll bow out before it gets heated.

[Fellfrosch]

Speaking of things getting heated--I want my pie!

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

warm apple pie is good.

so is shoofly pie.

[Mr_Pleasington]

Homemade apple pie rules the roost, followed closely by homemade pumpkin pie, then homemade pistacio pie.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

when come back, bring pie.

Dangit, I'm making a store run today now.