Author Topic: Evil Storytime: The Winter King  (Read 7165 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2003, 12:41:31 AM »
Oh, I see what your'e doing. You're proposing a non-explicit slightly different set of "wounds" for warrior men than for mystic women. No, I think you have a good point for that.

Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock

  • Level 57
  • *
  • Posts: 4591
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I Am Your Worst Nightmare's Dream
    • View Profile
    • Perfect
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2003, 01:26:41 AM »
I'm very flattered, but I don't think that point can totally go to me. Lets see if I can find the passage...

Ok, to refer to the one thing I had said pastly, on page 85 of my copy it says: "...I was released from fear as the mad, God-given joy of battle came to me for the very first time. Later, much later, I learned that the joy and the fear are the exact same things..."

Then to defend my claim of his test of mind on page 87 it says: "My vision might be blurred by tears, but I was alive and I had killed a man and I had defended my King and suddenly I was deliriously happy as Gwlyddyn led me back to the frightened fugitives and rased my arm as a sign that I had fought well."

So theres some proof and what not if you wanted it. Thats just how I cut the pages apart in my mind. I hope this isn't the schooling checking itself by subconsciously ripping arpart books I read now...
“NOTHING IS TRUE. EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED.”
                William S. Burroughs

“Who needs girls when you’ve got comics?”
                Grant Morrison’s Flex Mentallo

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2003, 02:07:17 PM »
No, I'm not just giving it to you. I think you have a point. They're not wounds, per se, but they are marks of passage for a great warrior, and it even someone carries thematically into the other books. He has fear (mind), a kill (body), and later, an oath (pride). So I think there's an unstated corellation between his maturity and Nimue's becoming a mystic.

Lieutenant Kije

  • Level 33
  • *
  • Posts: 1945
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2003, 04:18:38 AM »
I don't know if I like how Cornwall packaged Lancelot.  He certainly gives you a good reason to not like him (and I don't, nor have I ever) but part of why I never have liked him is because he was the best (traditionally) and he ended up doing the worst.  Now in The Winter King you expect him to fuss up everything because of how he's portrayed.  For me it's definitely more plausible (if Cornwall's going for some degree of historical plausability) but less spicy/tangy/viscerally interesting.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2003, 09:01:05 AM »
We should be finishing the book this week, right?

I have to keep pulling out the book, because I finished the trilogy last night and I can't remember what happens where. Cornwell keeps me fascinated to the end, and keeps reversing what I expect to happen till the last 50 pages or so, at which point his love for the legendary aspect forces him to write what you'd expect. There a number of other predictable events, but the novels far from suffers for it. I have to say this is one of the best Arthurian fictions of the 20th century. And it's statements like that one that make me wish Shakespeare had written an Arthur play (just wishful thinking).

I like the battle at the end of Winter King. throughout the series Guinevere keeps pointing out that  Arthur shines brightest when the hopes are darkest, but in this battle he doesn't. Yes, he wins, but it's Merlin that wins it for him. In the long run, Merlin's story is the most touching of the series. Yeah, Cornwell's main schtick is reversing everything in the legends, but he keeps that fresh and he does it well. He plans everything out, and he manages to stick to the themes. and main elements of the story. But how he gets there is always unexpected.

Anyway, Yeah, Lancelot is packaged very differently. But so is Arthur, so is Guinevere, so is every single other character.  And I think he partially does it because of the historical fiction feel he looks for. But he also does it just to give a new look at the character. We want it to be romantic and chivalric, and that's what Lancelot wants us to think. Reality, Derfel is fond of showing his patroness, is rarely like the songs made about it.

Fellfrosch

  • Administrator
  • Level 68
  • *
  • Posts: 7033
  • Fell Points: 42
  • Walkin' with a dead man over my shoulder.
    • View Profile
    • Fearful Symmetry
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2003, 01:46:22 PM »
I really liked the big battle at the end as well. These books were initially recommended to me on the grounds that their battle scenes were really good, so I was pleased to see that this was true. It's a very well-written battle, both strategic and visceral, and I was caught up in both halves of it.

I really like the way he's doing Lancelot, because I (like Kije) have always hated Lancelot. It doesn't make any sense to me that a man as good as Lancelot would turn around and do what he does, so the idea that he's really just an evil coward with good PR appeals to me. That might not be as tangy, but it feels right to me.

So what do you all think of the Ceinwyn romance? It was subtly hinted at since she first appeared, and I'm pleased to see it flower the way it has. Like most things in the book, this plotline has some ominous foreshadowing in the frame story, which makes it more interesting.

Saint, you said that this is one of the best Arthurian fictions of the 20th century, and I agree with you. What would you say are the others? Which, if any, is the best?
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die." --Mel Brooks

My author website: http://www.fearfulsymmetry.net

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2003, 11:31:02 PM »
Well, aside from this one, there are essentially three major Arthurian prose works. But to be fair, we'll extend it to other media. So in addition to Whites Once and Future King, Bradley's Mists of Avalon, and Stewart's Merlin Saga, we'll add the Musical Camelot and the film Excaliber. And while they're probably not in quite the same league from the perspective of Arthuriana, we should also throw in Lawhead's series and Monty Python and the Holy Grail. There are others, but the most significant of these (like TNT's production of Mists and Disney's Sword and the Stone are adaptations of those already on the list, so I'm going to exclude them partially for convenience and partially because they're too derivitive to get "greatest").

Of these, I would say the best done are Excaliber and White's book. The former for it's relative adherance to Mallory's version while still maintaining new artistic direction, and White for his drastic reinterpretation and wholesale renovation of the story. He made the Once and Future story once again, pulling in a whole new culture into it's application.

Now I'm not going to tear down most of the others. But Bradley's was, imho, really poorly poorly written - though it was frought with good ideas. Camelot I have a hard time sitting through. Maybe because I don't think it takes it as seriously as I like, though there's no denying it addresses things more seriously than would be immediately obvious from a musical. Stewart had some good ideas, but she makes some poor jumps when she gets to the end. Lawhead I haven't finished, so I'll reserve judgement. As for Monty Python: "Let's not go there. It's a silly place."

I'll just tack on at the end that I really enjoyed Hallmark's Merlin, but some of the production values interrupted me at times. Still worth watching. There are also some good children's works.

Now, again Lancelot. I hate to jump to his defense, because I, as well, don't like him. But I still can see how a good man can fall. For two reasons. One, sometimes he has just one weakness. He manages to reign in all his other passions but that one. The other is more complex: the late medieval concept of the knight is torn three ways. He's given three not always compatible loyalties: His lady, his lord, and THE Lord. Often a knight can pull this off. Lancelot, sadly, cannot. Devotion to his lady violates loyalty to his lord and to God. Devotion to either violates his loyalty to his lady. How can he pull it off? well, he doesn't, and we probably think he chooses the wrong loyalty, but to be fair, let's look at another story (one we'll see later in the series). In Tritram's story (Tristan), he falls also for the woman intended for his King (who also is his father), and they run off together. In the story, however, we clearly sympathize with Tristram, who is definitely more like Lancelot than any other character. True, Tristram and Iseult fall in love BEFORE the wedding, but well after the betrothal, and they both know. In addition, in most versions, the characters are the victims of a love potion. However, the analogy still works. Plus, how many of you would choose George Bush over the woman you love? For that manner, your best male friend over the woman you love? Ok, and even at that, some of you would, but the choice wouldn't be easy.

So yeah, Lancelot is realistic, I think. But we want our heroes to be better than us. To make good decisions without hesitation. But we find them so much more interesting when they're torn, and the interest perseveres for millenia at least in part BECAUSE of the Lancelot aspect. That's why people have recently found Superman to be dry, and why DC has started to try and make him more edgy.

Lieutenant Kije

  • Level 33
  • *
  • Posts: 1945
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2003, 02:56:31 AM »
Yes, it's true.  A large part of why the story is so compelling for me is the Lancelot problem.  I would it a lot easier to look over his faults if he hadn't gona and killed some of my favorites, though (chief among them Sir Gareth of Orkney.)  (Man, that still miffs me every time I think about it.)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2003, 09:31:09 AM »
Well, it's not like he did it on PURPOSE. That was the thrust of one of the best submissions we ever had at TLE (imho), but the story had some content we couldn't publish at BYU, so I had to send a nice letter to the authors instead of a contract.

Lieutenant Kije

  • Level 33
  • *
  • Posts: 1945
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2003, 02:21:35 PM »
Can you refresh me on the details surrounding that?  I don't know the story as thoroughly as I should.  

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2003, 11:24:11 PM »
The traditional method (as in Mallory and White) of this story working out:
1) Arthur goes out of town, leaving Lancelot in charge.
2) Lancelot chats up Guinevere quite a bit (there is lots of speculation of how euphemistic this "chatting up" is)
3) Mordred, with the cooperation of Aggravaine (Gawain and Gareth's brother) hatches a plan to catch Lance and Gwen in the act, which plan "works"
4) Fight ensues in Gwen's room, where Lance kills a "good guy" trying to preserve his and Gwen's lives and virtue.
5) Gwen convinces Lance to escape
6) Mordred and Aggravaine convince Arthur to burn Gwen for treason (Arthur seems kinda weak willed, but we'll just say he's depressed over learning that his best buddy may have been snogging his girl). The pretense is also that they know Lance will show up to save her, and thus they can catch him, and not have to kill Gwen.
7) Gawain refuses to go to the burning
8) Gareth and Gaheris go to the burning, but unarmed as a show of protest.
9) Lance, as expected, comes to save Gwen, and is compelled to use force of arms to do so. In the process, Gareth and Gaheris are slain, as they have no defence against a mounted, armored, sword swinging knight
10) Lance and Gwen escape to Lance's castle Joyeux Garde
11) Gawain freaks out and virtually forces Arthur to go to war against Lance

That's probably enough of the story to get it across.