Author Topic: Deus Ex Machina  (Read 9808 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2004, 01:22:32 PM »
now now, there were elves in the battle.
They just disappeared mysteriously.

Eagle Prince

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2004, 03:23:34 PM »
In my defense, there were no elves there in the book.  Still, the RoR are Rohan's army,  not the elves or the 300 farmers over the age of 12 or even Aragorn.  Its not "cheating" when its your own army, more like the other way around.  Cheating would be attacking someone when their army wasn't around to protect them.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2004, 05:04:37 PM »
ok, i see what's going on here.

see, I agree with you that it's not really Deus Ex Machina when they show up, since after all, this is what Gandalf went off to do in the first place.

However, you should realize that when Fell starts talking about "cheating," he's making a joke.

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2004, 05:51:20 PM »
Yes I know he is kidding.  I just felt it was worth pointing out that the Riders of Rohan arn't a foriegn or outside army.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2004, 07:59:55 PM »
The reason the Helm's Deep battle is less of a Deus Ex has absolutely nothing to do with which army belongs to whom.  We're talking about plot constructions here, not the pretty clothing placed over them.  Here is a potential interpretation of the plot:

The heroes are fighting.  They cannot win.  A god-figure arrives and destroys the enemy army for them.  

That is a very clean Deus Ex.  It doesn't matter whose army the god figure brings.  

Now, the thing about Helm's Deep is, that wasn't exactly the plot structure.  The heroes weren't set up to 'defeat' the enemy.  They were, as someone said before, trying to 'last x days' against an overwhelming foe.  Because of this foreshadowing and slight plot alteration, the plotting instead becomes:

The heroes are fighting.  Because of bravery, strength, and cleverness, they last the time they needed to in order to be saved, despite the fact that they should have been defeated.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2004, 05:04:02 PM »
The thing you're missing, EP, is that I'm looking at the battle, not the narrative, and I'm expressing it in wargaming terms. In that sense the Rohirrim are completely foriegn because they come from outside of our closed scenario; bringing them in when they haven't been "paid for" makes the armies unbalanced and destroys the integrity of the scenario. Obviously a game is a little different from real warfare, but part of the point I made at first was that my view of literary battles has been tainted by my experience with games.

EUOL's explanation is the best one, I think, and can also be expressed in wargaming terms (and provides what I feel to be a better interpretation than Entropy's Reinforcement Scenario). Helm's Deep is essentially a Siege Scenario, where the defender is given fewer points and must simply survive a number of turns--if they live they win, if they don't the attacker wins. The arrival of the Rohirrim does not take place during the game but after it--the last turn is over and the attackers have not destroyed the defenders, so the defenders win the scenario.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2004, 09:49:18 PM »
see, the problem with that scenario is the Helm's Deep side has 600 men, while the orcs have at least 10,000. how unbalanced can a wargame scenario be? I mean, they shouldn't have lasted ONE round, let alone all night.

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2004, 11:19:31 PM »
Yes, but they were holed up in a highly defensive structure, and because of the positioning, only about 600 orcs could attack at any one time. They would have eventually lost, but by adopting defensive tactics, they were able to last out. Look at how many orcs went down before getting anywhere near achieving anything simply by the archers.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2004, 11:55:16 PM »
Yes, but the 600 have a fortress on their side. Plus not all 10,000 can attack in one round. Many has to wait until the people in front of them died to that they could move forward, be killed, and let the guys behind them repeat the scenario.

And let us not forget that these are orcs they are fighting. In all generic fantasy orcs are nothing more than cannon fodder.

Actually, I find it to have that kind of Song of Roland feel to it were the good guys kill a hundred of the bad guys on each of their attacks, but the bad guys only get to kill a couple of the good guys so that they occassionaly look like a threat.

Also, if it looked like the good guys actually stood a chance in Hades of winning all the suspence, build-up, and dramatic elements would have gone to waiste. Sorry, but watching battle scenarios is about as dull as a rubber ball gone flat. Need we be reminded of Inchon, or the endless number of of bad war movies made almost entirely of battle-plans and fight shots?
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2004, 04:48:18 AM »
Besides, Tolkien quickly established that his heroes are inhumanly good at fighting.  When you have people that heroic, you need overwhelming enemy numbers to present a challenge.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2004, 07:49:30 AM »
piffle. The orcs were hardly cannon fodder. That one ran in with 5 arrows sticking out of important parts of his body. And more than 600 were able to attack at once, I think, counting seige engines and ranged attacks.

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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2004, 11:48:24 AM »
My only Tolkein Deus Ex Machina complaint is: eagles.  Whenever there is no way to escape, bring in the eagles.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2004, 05:43:10 PM »
I see where you are coming from HOM, and I realize that I'm just arguing to be defensive, however,

The eagle and Shadowfax are parts of what makes Gandalf who he is. They show the mystic elements of his wizardary and his connection with nature and Middle Earth. You can only see that through the eagles and Shadowfax.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2004, 11:01:59 PM »
Gandalf uses summoning spells to bring in the eagles. See that little ray of light they show. That's really a portal to another dimensions where the eagles live on white clouds with rainbow bridges.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2004, 11:22:17 PM »
Yes, not from the Misty Mountains. Any place but there.
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