Author Topic: Writers and the Law  (Read 7445 times)

42

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2004, 02:06:36 PM »
Well, like I said earlier, it depends on how damaging the actions really were.

From my volunteer work at the mental health center, I've met a lot people who have been severely damaged by words.

If someone hears enough offensive/abusive words, either directed at them or around them, it will trigger a psychosomatic response. Thus a person becomes physically damaged resulting from verbal assualt. It does take a fairly constant barrage of negative verbage to cause this, but it does happen and more often then many people will admit. Actions cause it to happen even faster. Also, genetics and age play a factor.

So while the stick as stones phrase is mostly true it is not entirely true.

Thus the extent of the damage to these women needs to be accessed. As I see it, if the women were simply disatisfied with the environment, then I don't see a change being necessary. But if the environment has left women with emotional scars that have hindered the women in performing basic tasks, then some action needs to be taken. There is a spectrum that will have to be evaluated by the courts.
The Folly of youth is to think that intelligence is a subsitute for experience. The folly of age is to think that experience is a subsitute for intelligence.

Archon

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 02:18:12 PM »
Ok, but they chose to be there. In the time that it would take to inflict serious damage, I should think she could find a different job, or, as she ended up doing, join the military. And my bet is that she would have, if it were hurting her that badly. Therefore, I would bet that she is just whining so she can get some money out of it.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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42

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 02:32:35 PM »
It is likely that she is just whining, but you have to consider that people often don't realize how damaging words are until after the fact. Often not until years later.
The Folly of youth is to think that intelligence is a subsitute for experience. The folly of age is to think that experience is a subsitute for intelligence.

fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2004, 04:25:51 PM »
Quote
Ok, but they chose to be there. In the time that it would take to inflict serious damage, I should think she could find a different job, or, as she ended up doing, join the military. And my bet is that she would have, if it were hurting her that badly. Therefore, I would bet that she is just whining so she can get some money out of it.


I agree that what was described in this article was not very bad sounding or horrible. As someone who was sexually harassed in the past, I'm throwing in my lot with 42.  You can say a lot of things in retrospect that you SHOULD have done in that situation.  It's not always easy to think objectively while you're being subjected to it, especially if you happen to be an emotionally vulnerable person.
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MsFish

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2004, 08:35:14 PM »
I was going to defend myself against that "thought police" example directed at me, but it looks like 42 has it covered.  All I have to say is, are we in a work environment?  No.

I was trying to come up with something else to say, but this argument is giving me a headache.  

Merry Christmas, Archon.  

And Merry Christmas everyone else too.  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 08:35:39 PM by MsFish »
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Archon

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2004, 12:34:15 AM »
Merry Christmas MsFish, and everyone else for that matter. MsFish, I don't really know what to do with that last argument, so if you want to post a more lengthy response, we can continue, if not, we can let that rest. Fuzzy, I don't know enough about your situation to respond, and even if did, you would probably be dissatisfied with my response. So I am just going to bow out of that argument, to keep off of toes.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

MsFish

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 03:00:48 AM »
Oh but toes are so conveniently located for stepping on.  You mean that's not what they're for?
Hold fast to dreams, for when dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly.  Hold fast to dreams, for when dreams go, life is a barren field frozen with snow.  -Langston Hughes

Eagle Prince

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 03:36:40 AM »
Quote
Oh but toes are so conveniently located for stepping on.  You mean that's not what they're for?


I'm sure it would seem that way to someone born with two left feet.
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Archon

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2004, 12:07:07 PM »
As a left footed person, I find that offensive.  ;)
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

MsFish

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2004, 10:30:51 PM »
As a person with toes, I'm offended by this entire conversation, and intend to report it to the thought police.  Where was their office located, again?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2004, 10:31:14 PM by MsFish »
Hold fast to dreams, for when dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly.  Hold fast to dreams, for when dreams go, life is a barren field frozen with snow.  -Langston Hughes

Archon

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2004, 11:17:56 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, it has been a long time since I read 1984, but I believe it is the Department of Love.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
In the depth of winter, I finally discovered that within me there lay an invincible summer. -Albert Camus

fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2004, 11:50:08 PM »
Yes, miniluv
"Hr hr! dwn wth vwls!" - Spriggan

I reject your reality, and substitute my own. - Adam Savage, Mythbusters

French is a language meant to be butchered, especially by drunk Scotts. - Spriggan

n8sumsion

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2004, 03:07:16 PM »
I do want to chime in briefly on this topic, as the outcome of this case would directly affect my work environment. While I am not a television script-writer, I do work in the entertainment business, and I have been in many brain-storming sessions. When you're shooting things off the top of your head, sometimes things can get out of hand, especially when you are trying to capture that "something" that is fun or funny. When I worked for Acclaim, there was a game they were working on they were sure was going to be the next big thing in gaming. It was called BMX XXX. They wanted to create a whole line of XXX products. I was asked to come up ideas for a XXX version of the game I was working on, a professional wrestling game. Let's just say some of the ideas that came out of that meeting I would not have been comfortable saying in front of my mother.

Not to point fingers at anyone on this board, this is a general statement. But it has been my experience that the majority of those people who favor censorship do so when it conveniently reinforces their own particular views. In this example, the writing on Friends. You don't like it, then it doesn't bother you if it's censored. The problem with this is obviously, what happens when the government is trying to censor something we don't want censored? Expressing our personal views on religion in a public setting is a good example of a personal freedom we wouldn't want taken away from us.

In the example of this brainstorming room on Friends, I think it's clear that if her accusations are legitimate, the fact that someone is exposing themselves to her is clearly inappropriate behavior. Unless you're in the adult entertainment industry, that's not something you should have to deal with when you go to work. But to extend that to say, because I am an entertainment writer, I have less social worth than a doctor or humanitarian, and therefore I have less right to express my thoughts or ideas, I don't agree with that.

*SPOILER ALERT FOR THE GAME FAR CRY*

When I worked on Far Cry, I helped flesh out a little bit of the story. We had a cast of characters, including one guy who starts as your friend and double-crosses you later in the game. He happened to be a black man, which in-and-of-itself was no big deal. But when the game came out, all of a sudden we're reading criticisms that he was the ONLY main character that was black, we're a company based in Germany, so of course our facist mindsets cast the black guy as the villain. On the surface, that accusation was ridiculous. But what if the laws were such that someone felt we had offended someone in some way?

*END SPOILERS*

I'm just saying, regardless of whether or not the specific brainstorming sessions involved by the script-writers for Friends were inappropriate or not, I don't like the precedent it would set if from now on, a group of writers writing a show for an adult audience, involving risque situations and humor, if these writers have to weigh in every single thought they have before blurting it out under the deadlines and conditions they have to work in. Because that makes brainstorming A LOT more difficult, and I don't want that kind of restriction on me, especially when I am getting paid to be creative and it can directly affect my paycheck.

Basically, I don't expect to never be offended by what other people say, as long as I still have to right to say whatever is on my mind.

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2004, 10:10:50 AM »
Well, just to add two bits, it is a legal fact that targetted sexual remarks are criminal if they are unwanted.

That sounds like the problem. The remarks, at least from what I read in the article, were not targetted. The "hostile environment" is often accepted as targetting, but the problem is that the complaintant has to point out that it's hostile. If she never did so, then in my view, she has no case at all.

I sympathize with fuzzy about not knowing when it's happening, but there's not a lot that can be done about that is there? If the victim doesn't know it's hurting him/her, then how can you possibly expect the abuser to know?  It's unrealistic. Many people do not feel abused or offended by that type of conversation, and it seems an un acceptable limit on free speach to say the subject can never come up. It seems likewise absurd to ask a pre-conversation topic approval take place.

However, in a situation where you're brainstorming for a creative/entertainment situation, it should be understood beforehand that the topic may get out of control. I believe the employer has the responsibility to make sure any participants are aware of this so they can opt out. If someone feels targeted or offended, he/she must bring it up when it starts, to let people know, or else bring it up later so it doesn't happen again.

That seems to only fair and just way to enforce this type of behavior.

Skar

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Re: Writers and the Law
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2005, 02:18:17 PM »
Bravo SE.  Well put.

I agree.
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