Author Topic: Return of the King *SPOILERS*  (Read 9598 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2003, 01:43:50 PM »
Quote
So here's my complaint:  It's one I've voiced before, but I feel it needs repeating.

Why in the heck did Aragorn hook up with Arwen instead of Eowyn?  Now, in my opinion, Eowyn is hotter than the fires of Mount Doom, and Arwen is dopey looking, but let's ignore that for a minute (because I know that many of you disagree).

Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF.  Arwen, on the other hand, does NOTHING except mope around and look pouty.  The last time she did anything other than pine and cry was in the first movie.  Sure, she's willing to give up immortality, but that doesn't make her any cooler.  She's self-sacrificing, but so is that the only basis for their romance?

Uh.. how about the up front and simple answer: Aragorn has a decades long  (at least) relationship with Arwen. He knows her well and they've actually had a chance to bond. There's a lot more to a relationship than what you've accomplished in the last few weeks.

Plus, I'll be she cooks. As we see in the ex. ed. of TTT, Eowyn cooks for crap. Maybe he just likes brunettes too.

as for the feminist moment, it's kind of ironic, actually. Because Eowyn beats the witch-king by being a woman who acts like a man. She dresses as a man, disguises herself as a man, does things that are typically male in her society, and then fights in war, which is supposed to be male in this context. The witch-king's response to "I'm no man" should have been "then stop acting like one."


Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2003, 01:47:18 PM »
Quote
Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF.


Yeah. But arwen doesn't
a) look like she is about to start crying when she faces the witch king
b) has a nicer sword
c) looks better while doing it, although her taste in dresses is questionable.

Plus, her dads rich.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2003, 01:49:26 PM »
I dunno, i like the diaphanous thing in TTT

Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock

  • Level 57
  • *
  • Posts: 4591
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I Am Your Worst Nightmare's Dream
    • View Profile
    • Perfect
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2003, 01:49:36 PM »
I like the idea/conspiracy that the Witch king and Tom Bombadil are the same person.

You can read it at http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

Very interesting.
“NOTHING IS TRUE. EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED.”
                William S. Burroughs

“Who needs girls when you’ve got comics?”
                Grant Morrison’s Flex Mentallo

Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2003, 01:51:41 PM »
I was thinking of the blue gown she was wearing in RotK. Does nothing for her.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2003, 01:56:19 PM »
Ok, at the risk of turning this into a girly thread, I think you're right. She needed something with more shape than she wears most of the time.

stacer

  • Level 58
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Stacy Whitman's Grimoire
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2003, 02:01:14 PM »
What do you guys think of this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/movies/21JAME.html

Personally, I think she's setting up a straw man or whatever it's called. It's NOT a chick flick, but that doesn't mean that it can't convey great emotion. And it did. Especially in Sam. Just because it also includes action doesn't mean that there can't be emotion, and it seems she's coming from an anti-fantasy and anti-action movie stance.

Besides, I know many women (examples: myself, MoD, fuzzy, and Brenna for starters) who love it for itself. Admittedly, there is also the component of enjoying the eye candy, but that's only a small part of it.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 02:02:57 PM by norroway »
Help start a small press dedicated to publishing multicultural fantasy and science fiction for children and young adults. http://preview.tinyurl.com/pzojaf.

Follow our blog at http://www.tupublishing.com
We're on Twitter, too! http://www.twitter.com/tupublishing

Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2003, 02:09:22 PM »
You have to register >:(
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

  • Administrator
  • Level 96
  • *****
  • Posts: 19211
  • Fell Points: 17
  • monkeys? yes.
    • View Profile
    • herb's world
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2003, 02:13:35 PM »
yeah, summarize, I refuse to register for NYTimes just because there seems to be no call for it other than to track my info- even if it's just while I'm there. Maybe I'm silly, i mean, that helps them get advertising which keeps them in business without charging me, but I'm stubborn. Also, lazy.

stacer

  • Level 58
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Stacy Whitman's Grimoire
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2003, 02:43:05 PM »
okay, will do that tonight when i get home
Help start a small press dedicated to publishing multicultural fantasy and science fiction for children and young adults. http://preview.tinyurl.com/pzojaf.

Follow our blog at http://www.tupublishing.com
We're on Twitter, too! http://www.twitter.com/tupublishing

Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2003, 05:04:26 PM »
Okay, so i registered. Saint, if you want to read it, log in with the nick "entsuropi" and the password "chocolate".

I agree with you fuzzy, she is obviously violently anti-fantasy. I am against romance films, and as such i would hardly spend my time commenting on them. Uninformed opinion. The series was full of very emotional scenes; the hobbits fighting boromir before they try to go over carahandras; the characters reactions after the loss of gandalf; the scene with boromirs death; any scene with sam or arwen in it pretty much; the entire end sequence of RotK and so on. She is consciously ignoring that in favour of a quick attack on geek culture.

BTW, a straw man is a smoke screen argument. So i think you were using the term wrong, but saint will probably correct me :D
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 05:07:04 PM by Charlie82 »
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

stacer

  • Level 58
  • *
  • Posts: 4641
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • Stacy Whitman's Grimoire
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2003, 06:11:55 PM »
"Uninformed opinion"--yes, much better term. Is there some sort of term for that, other than itself, like straw man? Red herring? That's like a straw man, too, though. Hmm. Okay, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but you get the drift.

On a completely unrelated note, I just was given advanced screening tickets for tonight to Paycheck. It's free, so who would pass that up? So maybe I'll have an opinion tonight. I don't have anything against Ben Affleck (well, I don't think he's the best of actors, either, but won't avoid films with him in them), so maybe I'll have the chance to watch for what others on the board have noticed in him. What story is this based on? Who wrote it? Can't remember.
Help start a small press dedicated to publishing multicultural fantasy and science fiction for children and young adults. http://preview.tinyurl.com/pzojaf.

Follow our blog at http://www.tupublishing.com
We're on Twitter, too! http://www.twitter.com/tupublishing

EUOL

  • Moderator
  • Level 58
  • *****
  • Posts: 4708
  • Fell Points: 33
  • Mr. Prolific [tm]
    • View Profile
    • Brandon Sanderson dot com
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2003, 06:30:58 PM »
That Tom Bombadil=The Witch King article was great!  It's just like my theory that R2D2=Master Jedi.

As for why Aragorn didn't end up with Eowyn...well, maybe they just didn't go together.  He was right when she said she didn't love him, she just loved the image of him.  Faramere is a much better match for her anyway.  

Also, I'm sure Arowen would be far less dopey if played by ANYONE other than Live Tyler.  Her little girlish face and pouting eyes didn't make for a very strong characterization of Arowen.
http://www.BrandonSanderson.com

"Technically, I don't even have a brain."--Fellfrosch

Fellfrosch

  • Administrator
  • Level 68
  • *****
  • Posts: 7033
  • Fell Points: 42
  • Walkin' with a dead man over my shoulder.
    • View Profile
    • Fearful Symmetry
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2003, 07:48:55 PM »
The term Straw Man comes from the phrase "setting up a straw man just to knock it down." So, for example, if someone wrote an article about how there was no emotion in LotR and then refuted that idea in the same article, that would be a straw man. Anything that exists solely to be destroyed.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die." --Mel Brooks

My author website: http://www.fearfulsymmetry.net

Mad Dr Jeffe

  • Level 74
  • *
  • Posts: 9162
  • Fell Points: 7
  • Devils Advocate General
    • View Profile
Re: Return of the King *SPOILERS*
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2003, 10:07:44 AM »
I honestly dont know why that article was even in the paper.
Bias is fine, but please. This person has shown that they hate the Genre by degrading people who like it. Calling them geeks or childish adolecents if they are men. Or stupid romantics if they are women. A better article would have discussed how its hard to have great personal emotion in an epic with hundreds of characters.
by Line three of the article I was screaming "I get it, you didn't like the movie."
Which brings me to an interesting point, I think there are a few reviewers out there saying bad things about ROTK just to be the dissenting opinion. I bet if you pulled the aside and said did you like it they would blush and say yes in fact I did, but since the NYT doesnt want to look like every other paper we were pressured to give it a bad review. Just a theory.
Its an automated robot. Based on Science!