Return of the King *SPOILERS*

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

ok, got home late and talked to the wife so went to bed. but here goes.

The oliphaunts may have been difficult. But I think the fact that the Rohirim are the best horsemen in the world, plus the fact that the whole idea is that the Rohirim are crapping their pants even as they line up to charge is what made it believable. The idea is that even though they all expected to die, they went ahead. Middle-Earth is full of magical connections not in real life, and I suspect that's something you could easily pull in: The Rohirim and their horses are bonded in a way they could over come their mutual fears.

OTOH: the initial cavalry charge was INCREDIBLY realistic, whereas the similar scene in TTT was hard to get around. See, the idea behind a shield wall is that nothing gets through it. Cavalry was introduced because it was scary as heck for the infantry in the shield walls, but it was 100% perception. If a shield wall held, no horse was even going to try to get through it. They'd charge real close, but not do anything. The only way around it I can think of in TTT is that Gandalf definitely DOES have a more intense "friendship" with shadowfax, and it's he who hits the wall first, breaking it, allowing the other riders in. In RotK, however, the fear effect comes in like it should, the wall breaks before the cavalry even hits it, and after that, cavalry can easily decimate the disorganized and fearful infantry. Nice.

What was with that deformed orc with a bad arm? Why didnt' the other orcs just eat him and appoint another leader? No, he wasn't a good fighter. He was pretty crap and moved even more awkwardly than the other orcs.

Nice touch with Aragorn laying smack down on the dead guys. Me likies.

Any of you other Mormons catch Gandalf talking about the sea of glass? That resonated well. Me likies too.

I was into the end as well, though this three stupid cows behind me really shouldn't have even been in the theater. They kept sighing in frustration when it kept going. I turned around and told them they'd already had more than 10 bucks worth of movie, and if it was boring them, they should leave. They pissed me off.
In fact, I wanted to see more. I wanted to see Faramir and Eowyn hook up like in the book, but I guess they were really pressed for time.

I DID really want to see Gandalf v. Saruman at Isengard. V. disappointed that Pippin just found the palantir. Happy with the scene where he looked in the Palantir, but disappointed again that we didn't get to see Aragorn defeat it (after all, this is how everyone knows that he's back, right? How else does the Steward of Gondor know the king is coming?)

Liked how they handled Denethor's death, personally, but the stupid cows behind me giggled. I nearly told them to shut it then.

Mucho cool stuff. Much of anything else I can say is just repetition. Despite disappointment at things being left out, I though Jackson made great editing decisions to get it down as short as he did. Looking forward to more in the DVD, though. Of especially pleasingness is not ruining the Arwen/Aragorn thing and redeeming the Faramir character (which really happens in the TTT extended bits). Also, I liked how the Shelob bit was done. More action than in the book, but still fairly true to what goes on. The tower scene with the orc fight was really nice too.

[Entsuropi]

(after all, this is how everyone knows that he's back, right? How else does the Steward of Gondor know the king is coming?)

Because 30 years before, Aragorn under an assumed name (Thrandol i think) leads an attack on Umbar that burns all their ships. This being one of the things that helped to save Minias Tirith, since there would have been an incredibly large Corsairs force otherwise. But he did that while Denethors dad was Steward and Denethor was a Gondor captain. Denethor saw through Aragorns disguise and guessed his identity. One can assume that he then kept a close eye on him.

The only way around it I can think of in TTT is that Gandalf definitely DOES have a more intense "friendship" with shadowfax, and it's he who hits the wall first, breaking it, allowing the other riders in.

In that, he did his light thing, which broke the phalanx since all the Urak Hai covered their eyes and lifted their weapons. But i guess you are right on the breaking of the actual ranks.

In fact, I wanted to see more. I wanted to see Faramir and Eowyn hook up like in the book, but I guess they were really pressed for time.

Since at the wedding they are standing together and smile at each other, I assume that they hook up in the EE.

Any of you other Mormons catch Gandalf talking about the sea of glass? That resonated well. Me likies too.

I vaguely remember that... where was it? What connection does it have for you?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Well, of course Eowyn and Faramir hooked up, I saw that. But it's a REALLY good character moment when Eowyn realizes that all is not lost because she doesn't have Aragorn, and she realizes Faramir has worth. It also helps Faramir realize that he has been redeemed. He's not just second prize, but a valued person. It just would have been a nice touch to have the scene where they meet.

The sea of glass was mentioned when Gandalf is talking to Pippin about death. A lot of the images in that conversation resonate strongly with LDS eschatological ideas. The sea of glass both represents a cleansed and perfected earth as well as being a device that aids in Seership. Of course, Gandalf doesn't go into all that, but the images are there, and it was a fun moment for me.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually my favorite thing about the whole series is the lesson we learn:

"Unless you're raised by elves, if you rule a kingdom, you're going to go crazy"

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Its funny because its true.

[Lieutenant Kije]

Although it really didn't bother me, I would have liked to see Faramir and Eowyn developmeor eof a relationship too.  But like Saint said, time.

I like how Sam is portrayed as as much or a hero as anyone.  In the books I remember this wasn't as clear to me.  I could be wrong.  I'm reading them all again (starting with The Silmarillion real soon.)

And one little tiny bit that pleased me much was the battering ram resembling the wolf of Angband who took Beren's hand.  An echo back to middle-earth history and a story very similar to LotR.  Tolkien knew that history repeated itself.

[Entsuropi]

Heh. Kjie, i'm reading the silmarrion as i take the bus to and from work, and i literally just read that part. Damned if i can remember the wolves name though

Some comments.
1) Minas Tirith ... capital of Gonder, and a 3000 year old city. And yet, it looks like it could house 5 thousand people, max. It had more soldiers than that! Okay, so jerusalem is about that old (i guess) and it does not have an immense population but still.
2) Speaking of soldiers, how come Gondor has such crap ones? I didn't see a single Orc killed by a gondorian in melee combat. Pretty poor showing for a bunch of guys wielding swords and wearing breastplates/platemail. Their archery was rather underwhelming as well, as they killed all of 0 orcs as they marched towards the walls as far as i could see. The guys on top of the gatehouse win awards for not knowing when to quit though - they were still firing when the orcs were busy smashing down the gate to the second level.
3) Osgilliath - did anyone else get the feeling it was all of 3 miles from Minas Tirith? Even towns here in yorkshire are further apart than that.
4) And uhm, ME orcs hate sunlight, and are terrible at fighting in it. So why didn't they wait until dark?
5) What a shot from Eomer, taking out that Mumakil driver. My nomination for best ranged attack of the film.
6) The funniest scene had to be when legolas, having taken down that mumakil, lands and has this half smug, I'm so good, and half 'Who else wants some?' look, and Gimli just splutters and says, 'That still only counts as one!'.
7) Sean Austin did wonderful work in this. His scenes were touching without being over the top.

I cannot now remember if any of those questions arose or were answered in the book...

[Lieutenant Kije]

Yeah, the whole Osgiliath being so near didn't work so well for me.  It didn't ruin anything, and it probably helped to reign in the film timewise, but it wasn;t too realistic.  What was more of a leap though is how in Minas Tirith they decide to go assault the black gate and the next moment they're there!  How that for a speedy ride/march?  Through some pretty crappy terrain also.  I can't remember how or if that was handled in the books, which is why I'm reading them all again.

[Lieutenant Kije]

btw: how do you like The Silmarillion, Entropy?  I know lots who don't care for it as much because it isn't as closely narrated as LotR.

Personally, it's my favorite of Tolkien's stuff.  It really showcases how good Tolkien was.  How real he made it all.

My favorite parts are Beren & Luthien, and also the oath of Feanor and how it has this terrible damning effect for centuries afterwards.  Not that she played a huge role in The Silmarillion, but I find Galadriel one of the most interesting players in LotR because of what she probably went through with regards to that oath.

[Entsuropi]

Well, watching 7 thousand men march for 2 weeks is not my idea of fun

The problem is that the time element got screwed - note how in one shot, frodo and sam are in orc gear, whereas in the next they are not. There is obviously a lot of footage to go there in the EE. So they did have a long march, but jackson only showed it with a tiny little shot. I guess that in the EE he will try to expand it a little.

That reminds me - Eomer seemed, like Elrond in film 1, to be a lot harsher, more.. bitter almost than in the books.

[Lieutenant Kije]

Yeah, I can imagine they had a devil of a time cutting stuff out.

[stacer]

What I was wondering is how Sam and Frodo got their elvish cloaks back at the end, since they were carrying nothing once they lost the orc gear. I remember noticing that they were in shirtsleeves and suspenders (braces, whatever) and wondering where the cloaks went, and then there they were, magically.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

What had they got in their pocketses?

[House of Mustard]

So here's my complaint:  It's one I've voiced before, but I feel it needs repeating.

Why in the heck did Aragorn hook up with Arwen instead of Eowyn?  Now, in my opinion, Eowyn is hotter than the fires of Mount Doom, and Arwen is dopey looking, but let's ignore that for a minute (because I know that many of you disagree).

Eowyn kills the witch-king, and she is tougher than crap, and ACTUALLY DOES STUFF.  Arwen, on the other hand, does NOTHING except mope around and look pouty.  The last time she did anything other than pine and cry was in the first movie.  Sure, she's willing to give up immortality, but that doesn't make her any cooler.  She's self-sacrificing, but so is that the only basis for their romance?

[Entsuropi]

Anyone else note how much of a feminist moment Eowyns victory over the witch king seemed? What with, 'I'm no man' and all.

btw: how do you like The Silmarillion, Entropy?  I know lots who don't care for it as much because it isn't as closely narrated as LotR.

Personally, it's my favorite of Tolkien's stuff.  It really showcases how good Tolkien was.  How real he made it all.

My favorite parts are Beren & Luthien, and also the oath of Feanor and how it has this terrible damning effect for centuries afterwards.  Not that she played a huge role in The Silmarillion, but I find Galadriel one of the most interesting players in LotR because of what she probably went through with regards to that oath.

Holy crap, only just noticed this post.

I love it. While it is very scoped out, very light on the details, the feeling of a mythic history to the events in the lord of the rings that is nevertheless internally consist and real feeling, is just breathtaking. Stuff like how aragorn sings about luthien in fellowship - imagine how hearing about that story, from all those centuries ago (lets see... there was about 400 years of the first age left after luthien died... then 3000 ish years in second and third ages, makes it 6 and a half thousand years before) feels for him, what with Arwen and all.

Personally, galadriel is plain fascinating - she is at least 7000 years old by the time of the war of the rings. Can you imagine the amount of knowledge you could aquire in that time frame?

My favourite parts of it are... i am not sure. I like the feeling of inescapable doom from the Oath, and how it gradually ensares everyone involved. Beren and Luthien was not bad, but some parts - sauron singing - were a bit wierd. But basically, its the feeling of a mythic history, a real historical backdrop to the world of LOTR, that i like the best. The great battles are good reads - not so much for the usual gory accounts (since there is none) but for the brief descriptions of heroism and loss in them. The theme of wonders and glory lost to tragedy and time really ring through powerfully in the silmarrion. But the stuff about Numeror is the worst bit, although i have not got to it yet this time around. Not certain why.

I like the silmarrion so much that i am joining a play by post game set in 1690TA (around the time of the fall of Arnor) as a Elven minstrel who has studied and sings about the first age.

BTW - i checked my "Atlas of middle-earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad and the battle of the pelennor fields took place on the 15th of march. The battle in front of the black gate took place on the 25th. The journey was about 50 miles or so.

Holy crap, i'm talking a lot in this thread. Shows how much i like LOTR.