D&D 3.5

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

/me cries, then thinks of monkeys in kilts. Heheheh. monkeys.

[42]

Okay so I actually have a copy of a 3.5 manual. So now I have some comments. Not about kilts. Other than there was a guy I went to High School with who wore kilts. He soon stopped wearing kilts after he progress to skirts and then dresses. I don't know what happened to him after that, but I don't think it was good.

So about D&D 3.5, well it's not ground-breaking. I think the biggest change is organizational. Things are easier to find. There are more tables and some new art. A lot of things are just tweaked a little. A lot stuff was rewritten and edited, like AoO.

What I like is that they pulled in a lot of commonly used stuff from other resources. For those of us who have no intention of buying every D&D book made, this is nice. I think Monte Cook is just whining about stuff being in other manuals. I just don't care because I haven't purchased every D&D book and I think most d20 players don't purchase everything put out there.

[Brian]

Speaking of Attack of Opportunity, care to give us a brief sampling? I'm very curious what they may or may not have done with that section in particular.

[42]

Well, on the Wizards website they basicly explain it as such:

Attacks of opportunity are important to the overall balance of the D&D combat rules. They're also a little bit confusing and easy to ignore. One of the many, many goals of D&D 3.5 is to deal with issues just like that. The new combat chapter is both shorter and easier to understand than the earlier version. As an example of the type of change we're talking about, here's the new description of attacks of opportunity.

As always, remember that nothing is complete or final until you buy the book in the store.

Attacks of Opportunity

The melee combat rules assume that combatants are actively avoiding attacks. A player doesn't have to declare anything special for her character to be on the defensive. Even if a character's miniature figure is just standing there on the battle grid, you can be sure that if some orc with a battleaxe attacks the character, she is weaving, dodging, and even threatening the orc with a weapon to keep the orc a little worried for his own hide.

Sometimes, however, a combatant in a melee lets her guard down, and she doesn't maintain a defensive posture as usual. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity (but see Unarmed Combat).

Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons (such as a longspear) threaten more squares than a typical creature. For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.) In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more; see Big and Little Creatures in Combat.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack -- the 5-foot-step (see Miscellaneous Actions) and the withdraw action (see Full-Round Actions).

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Casting a spell and attacking with a ranged weapon, for example, are distracting actions. Table 8-2: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule. For instance, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat doesn't incur an attack of opportunity for making an unarmed attack.

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus -- even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you -- such as by moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square -- you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your normal attack bonus. You do not reduce your attack bonus for making multiple attacks of opportunity.

There are also lots of diagrams.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

That phrasing still leaves the obnoxious and grievous problem of AoO when moving from one threatened square to a different sqaure threatened by the same creature. AoO has still not been fixed, apparently.

[42]

Well, not everyone sees that as meaning the AoO is broken. In fact some people like that moving from one square to another square threantened by the same creature provokes an attack of opportunity.

As a DM, it's helpful that the player just can't move where they want on the battlefield.

I find that there is a very bi-polar attitude towards AoO. Some people love them and other absolutley despise them with a fiery hatred. So anyone is welcomed to feel as annoyed about the rule as they want. It just won't subtract from the enjoyment of those who do like AoO.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

it doesn't make sense if you're fighting the same opponent. It's a restriction that may "help" the DM, but as DM, whatever some referees like to think, your job is not to control the players. If I move from the backside of  a 20' long dragon and move to the front, I should not suffer an AoO. It's a meaningless rule except for with things not combat related. I don't like rules that exist for balance but don't make sense in any other way. This is definitely a broken rule, and always has been, which is why it's the center of 50% of all D&D arguments among players.

[Spriggan]

Then don't use it, no ones holding a gun to your head.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't.

I just want to know why anyone thinks that's rational and not broken.

[Spriggan]

I don't think it's "broken", maybe a little unrealistic but most things in D&D are.  Also It benafits players as much as DM's.  It you take a 5 foot step then you don't cause one, makes since to me.

[Fellfrosch]

I think that if I'm running from one end of a dragon to another, he's going to have the opportunity hit me. Hence, an Attack of Opportunity. If I advance slowly along his length in 5-foot steps, however, then I can defend myself as I go and he won't have the chance to take a free swipe. Makes sense to me.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

A dragon who ISN'T looking at you can attack you with impunity (remember, he gets an EXTRA attack for this, no matter what he's doing) even if you move along his side FACING him? You can move sideways faster than that. Sorry, I just don't see it.

[Spriggan]

Dragons have tremor sence so yes they know your there even if they cannot see you   .  And 1 round is only a matter of seconds so yes you could move several feet in that time but not defensivly or as I see not to call atention to yourself as much as bolting along side it.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Yet you can APPROACH an enemy at that speed. Sorry, no, still doesn't jibe.

And let's make it somethign like a Stone Giant, that doesn't have tremor sense. YOu do realize that's a problem with the example, not the principle, right?

[Spriggan]

you can only approch them at a high speed if your able to charge in a straight line, and then your threating an area with your weapon and others can still AoO you.  And as for the Stone Giant, it fits the rules better then a dragon because it's not so long.  I could easly tell if someone who wasn't trying to sneak came running up behind me.  I think that argument us mute.  The chances of a person geting a good wack at someone in that case isn't very good.