Author Topic: The Eye of Terror  (Read 6436 times)

Lord_of_Me

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2003, 03:58:13 PM »
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along with the attitude of the (admitedly few) GW store emplyees that I met.


i thought i was the only one who'd noticed, GW employees seem to think you're beneath them

prices are insane - paints just go up and up

and don't get me started on fanatic >:(

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2003, 04:10:34 PM »
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As long as people continue paying such prices for minis, the problem will never be solved.


Welcome to a capalist democracy. People want GW minis, and so they buy them. You imply that you would prefer to ignore their choice. If so, China needs you!

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Also, I hate WYSIWYG and the slow power and numbers creep of their games along with the attitude of the (admitedly few) GW store emplyees that I met.


Uh. Lets see.
1) GW staff are very friendly and helpful. Some of the best store employees since they actually give a damn about what they are selling.

2) Slow powers and numbers creep? Er no. That would be Rifts. GW actually do this little thing called balancing. So i don't agree with that argument. After all, X-Plosion was full of minis far more powerful than those in earlier boosters.

And i cannot see what you are getting at with WYSIWYG. GW even allows you to take totally scratchbuilt minis to tournaments - you not notice the guy with a hover - tank equiped army? Compare this to wizkids who have a very rigid system of not changing anything much if you want to go to a tournie. GW allows you to use "this counts as..." and "this is actually..." when dealing with conversions.

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Well, GW is almost single handedly responsible for the embarassing cost of miniatures these days.


...whereas D&D costs £20 per book, a hardback novel is £16 and a computer game is £45, a squad of minis is £15. Seems to be about par for the course to me. You can easily spend more money of a selection of RPG books from the D20 or WoD lines than on a 1000pt army.

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Combine this with the fact that GW keeps jacking up their prices and you see the problem.


Somebody needs to go and find out what "inflation" is.  And before you get all excited about the current shagged situation of the US economy, remember that the British one is going swimmingly. And the prices are really bad due to the fact that the pound is strong against the dollar. Good for people in britain buying imports, bad for people in america buying british exports.

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All in all, I think they're bad for the hobby because of their ridiculous prices


Ever wonder why GW can afford to make such high quality minitures and books? The Codexes are higher quality than D&D books at times. The quality comes at a price you know. If you want to buy crappy VOID minitures at lower cost, thats your choice. And interestingly enough, GW has annually increasing sales and profits. Wonder why.

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People will pay a lot for a GW model and so other mini makers charge like prices.


Most of them do not do nearly as well. I do not see many Ral Partha or VOID minitures on the shelves. Wizkids are in a different type of market, the collectable one, and so do not really count. GW minitures are things you spend hours of pain and love over, painting, modelling, converting. Wizkids ones are not. Ever wonder why GW gives so much shelf space to paints and modelling tools?

And on the whole internet retailing thing... Hm. I dunno. It is not like other companies would not do the same if they thought it would improve their profits. I'm not that bothered by it, since most if not all of said retailers are in the US. Maybe it is a tactic to increase their US profit margins.

Whew. Sorry about the harsh tone, but there it is.
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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2003, 05:36:47 PM »
You're free to disagree on the subject of power creep, Entropy, but I think most people would side with Pleasington. The power creep is not as bad as Rifts, obviously, but it does exist.

(Incidentally, Wizkids uses a strict formula to calcuate price based on numbers and powers--it's theoretically impossible for them to have power creep since the point values are determined by computer based on set criteria. I know there's arguments with that logic, but the fact remains that Wizkids games are inherently more balanced than any other miniatures game. We're not talking about Wizkids, though, so lets forget this paragraph ever existed.)

Now that I've argued with Entropy on one point I intend to support him on another--the price of GW miniatures is not overly high. You can get a full 40k army for around 200 dollars, which is about average for a serious commitment to any gaming hobby (and cheaper than most non-gaming hobbies). I've recently become a huge fanboy of Heroclix, but that's not because GW is too expensive--I just don't have the time to convert or paint models anymore. I still like 40k and I still intend to play it again someday (like when my kids move away).

On another note, we don't have any official GW stores here in backwater Utah but we do have three game stores in the city. One of them has very nice people, and the other two are stereotypically rude. I suspect that game store rudeness is an extension of comic store rudeness, which is a tradition so old it's become an institution. Comic stores are the only places I know where the sales people will actually berate you for buying their products.
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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2003, 06:17:26 PM »
I won't hit all the points, just the high ones...

GW Store:  I'm not saying that all GW store employees are complete jackasses, but the dozen or so I've met are.  They are condecending, arrogant, and usually completely unhelpful UNTIL you look like you're going to drop more than $50 at their store.  

Prices:  Miniature games are expensive.  It's a fact.  Still, each edition of either 40K or WFB requires you to field more and more troops.  With the price of figs ever rising it means it just costs more and more money to play.  And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the increase in the cost of miniatures FAR outweighs the inflation curve. If you love the game and are willing to spend the bucketloads of money needed then more power to you, but GW miniatures are far, far overpriced.  

As for price comparison:  Codex: Eldar:  42 B&W pages with color plates:  $12.    D&D 3E Player's Handbook:  286 full color pages:  $20.   Yeah, GW's books are a real bargain.  Especially since a codex only has about 10 pages of rules and the rest is poorly written fiction (Mon-Keigh?  Give me a break) and fluff that, while useful, should be a free download.

WYSIWYG:  I love conversions, but I don't like how you can't proxy at all.  By far and away this is a personal issue though and I don't expect much agreement.

Balance:  Entropy, you might be the first person I've ever heard to call a GW game balanced.  They make every codex a little more powerful than the last to attract people to buy that army.  When enough of this has happened they go back and revise the old codicies to make the power level comparable.  This imbalance isn't enough to make games unwinnable with old armies, but anyone who's played either WFB or 40K for over a year or two can vouch for this.

'Round here retailers stock mainly GW, but both Ral Partha and I-Kore minis are around.  I-Kore games are actually gaining quite a bit of popularity actually.  I play VOID because I find the rules much more fun and more interactive than 40K's and the minis are cheaper.  I built a fully functional VOID army for less than $100 over a year ago.  And the minis are great.  Most would give Citadel a run for its money (some are kinda crappy though).  Citadel minis aren't nearly as head and shoulders above the rest of the field as they used to be.  

I think I have a pretty good understanding of capitalism.  I don't like GW.  I'm not going to give GW any money.  I'm going to give companies I like such as I-Kore, Pinnacle, WizKids, and Fanpro my money.

I have no doubt that GW will be around for a long time, but it has taken a big hit over here in the last few years.  Wizkids has managed to steal away a lot of 40K's target audience and has posed the first serious threat to GW's niche in a long time.  Just because Wizkids games don't require the time and effort of GW games does not mean they are in virtually direct competition with each other.   Wizkids brought a breath of fresh air that the hobby needed.
GW's  recent decision to shut down all internet sales of their product has caused a lot of uproar and quite a few people to drop the game.   All the fuss around here these days is for IK: Warmachine, which I played a demo of and was great fun.  Now those minis ruled!  

For a laugh, check this out:  (Beware, R rated for language!) ----  http://www.misfirecomics.com/strips/030416.gif
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 06:20:30 PM by Mr_Pleasington »

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2003, 06:32:52 PM »
as a person that use to collect and paint minachure a long time ago 10+ years ago I can say that things have about dubbled in price.  Part of it is becasue about 7-8 years ago figures were lead, and a law was passed here in the states makeing that illegal.  Now they're pewder (ie par silver part lead) and that caused a signifnat raise in cost.  
Another factor is popularity, granted GW are popular but the gaming industry has been realy hurting the past 4-5 years.  Pallasium (because of their low production costs/levels) have been one of the few that have not been looseing money or barely breaking even.  I read an Editoral by Simbida last year about this it's not on palladiums site anymore.  So companies have to charge more for their products (look at WoTC books, they took a risk at selling the core rule books at below cost).

weither or not these things (along with inflation and other minor things) justafy the prices I can't say.  I don't know their production costs.  I will say that GW's plastic figures are insainly priced.

also if you don't like paying the price for paints then look at other types of stores.  Craft stores have a wide selection also looking at model stores (like train models and such) would have different brands.  Just remeber not to buy enamual.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2003, 07:27:07 PM »
Excellent point Spriggan...I've used craft paints since I started painting minis over seven years ago.  They're usually under a dollar and can last a long, long time.  I'll only buy Citadel/Ral Partha/etc. paints if they have some nifty color I can't get at a craft store or mix up easily.

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2003, 07:30:22 PM »
yea I'm useful

Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2003, 10:40:08 PM »
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Pleasington on the WYSIWYG issue.  While I think that $200 for an army is reasonable, I don't want to spend that money without ever playtesting an army list.  For that matter, I don't ever even want to buy a new tank for my IG without trying it out first.  (Fell and I played many a game where tanks, monsters and dreadnoughts were represented by rubber dragons, old Battle Beast vehicles and plastic dinosaurs.)

As far as cheap minis, I think you all know my leanings toward historical gaming.  The other day at the grocery store I found bags of little green army men selling for fifty cents a pop.  I got one hundred and eighty little guys (about 30mm) for three bucks.  Now I can finally try out those WWII 40k conversion rules.

I find it kind of funny - the first army that I ever had was little green army men, which Fell and I poorly painted in two tones (when we were about 11).  I've gone back to my roots.
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Entsuropi

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2003, 05:20:11 AM »
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GW Store:  I'm not saying that all GW store employees are complete jackasses, but the dozen or so I've met are.  They are condecending, arrogant, and usually completely unhelpful UNTIL you look like you're going to drop more than $50 at their store.  


Amazing. The 50 or so i have met over the years were the exact opposite. Maybe american hobby store shops attract retards though. It is strange tho, since US stores are regarded as having friendlier staff than UK ones.

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IK: Warmachine


Heard about it from misfire. The models look like warhammer 5th edition, ie not brilliant but not horrible either. I expect the very best in quality myself.

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I built a fully functional VOID army for less than $100 over a year ago.


Yeah. And VOID has crap models. The basic soldiers look like pimps with assault rifles, there is no detail on the tanks and the tyranid / zerg army has pathetic models. You pay for what you get.

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I will say that GW's plastic figures are insainly priced.


The mold for a plastic model costs tens of thousands of pounds. They need to make the models cost that much just to be sure of making a profit. For example, how many other companies make entire lines of plastic kits? Not many. They cannot afford the up-front costs.

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WYSIWYG:  I love conversions, but I don't like how you can't proxy at all.  By far and away this is a personal issue though and I don't expect much agreement.


You cannot proxy? So there are GW men in black suits coming to your house to *force* you to use only correct models? Hell, i have done it in the past.
If you are refering to official GW stuff, then yeah. But, those are meant to be at a professional level. Having peple turn up with a SM tank and say "its a lemun russ demolisher, honest" at a grand tournament kinda sucks.
And Wizkids are even worse. Check their tournament rules.
Oh, and the rules for making custom vehicles, they are that to stop gooby munchkin vehicles. The 100 bolters mounted on a warmachine is nasty, but not so nasty as trying to build such a machine.

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Citadel minis aren't nearly as head and shoulders above the rest of the field as they used to be.  


How about you go take a look at the new lizardman carnosaur model. Or that defiler. Or how about the entire Daemonhunters range.
GW has the best models around. And a lot of them are plastic, which is great for conversions.

Regarding Wizkids oh-so-wonderful balance:

Firelord. I have two versions. Both are about a third under cost, at least. That was a starter set model. They are not infalliable. In comparison, can anyone name a unit from 40k or warhammer that is broken to that degree?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 09:11:41 AM by Charlie82 »
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2003, 09:08:02 AM »
And page comparisons:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (Games Workshop). £25. 11 inches tall; 8 inches across. Paperback with a Hardcover Case. 288 pages. Numerous colour photographs (which are more expensive due to higher ink and resolution requirements). B&W drawings on pretty much every page.

Warhammer 40k Codex Chaos Space Marines. £10. 11 inches tall; 8 inches across. 80 Pages. Dozens of colour photographs; B&W drawings on every page.

Dungeons and Dragons PHB (Wizards of the Coast). £20. Note: link is to 3.5 PHB, so doesnt really help but there it is. 11 inches tall; 8 1/2 inches across. 312 pages. No pictures; colour pictures on every other page. This is the biggest of the D&D books.

Akashic Brotherhood Traditionbook (White Wolf Game Studios). £11. 11 inches tall; 8 1/3 inches across. 104 pages. No pictures; B&W drawings on every page.

In conclusion, page counts might be smaller but the colour pictures balance that out. So GW make their books at about the same cost/quality level as the RPG industry.  Go figure.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 09:12:22 AM by Charlie82 »
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2003, 09:38:36 AM »
Not that I *do* tabletop (not even sure why I read the thread)....

But if you're going to look at WOTC products (and note, that while I say this, it's STILL a good deal) that looking at the core books isn't fair. The Core D&D books are like the "first one's free" to get you in and spend more money later. The expansions (of comparable size, page length, and content) cost around $30. While the 100 pg b/w supplements are around $22. You should really be using those numbers to look at the cost of D&d books.

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2003, 10:39:59 AM »
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The expansions (of comparable size, page length, and content) cost around $30.


Here in britain all D20 books are £20. The PHB, the Fiend Folio, the CoC D20... all £20.

D20 is by far the most expensive game to get into on reflection.
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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2003, 12:17:24 PM »
1. about 3 years of 40k my rulebook and SM codex are in shreds. they are not very good.

2. In The inquisitor book half the fluff had been in WD(what fluff!)

3. GW staff are evil, i wanted to buy a SM bike (just the bike) in the nottingham store, i offhandedly mentioned it was for a conversion. After a ten-minute lecture why converting was a waste of time i walked out.

4. I got kicked out of the store for knowing the fleet of foot rule(admittedley it was a begginers day and i had come with a friend - but that wasn't fair!)

5. £30 for 5 bloody daemonhunter terminators!!!!!!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 12:18:40 PM by Lord_of_Me »

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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2003, 12:53:48 PM »
Yeah Isimir - they'll screw you on terminators every time.

Have any of you Utah boys ever been into Hammond?  They look at everyone that comes in as a potential shoplifter.  They also keep ALL the warhammer stuff behind the counter and then get annoyed when you ask for a closer look.

And Entropy:
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Here in britain all D20 books are £20. The PHB, the Fiend Folio, the CoC D20... all £20.  
D20 is by far the most expensive game to get into on reflection.


How many books do you need to play D20?  When you consider that to play 40k with one other person you need TWO $200 armies, a pile of paint, at least two codex books and the rulebook, it seems far more expensive.  In d20, once you have a couple of books, you can play.  Individual players don't need their own books, and anyone who wants to try it out merely needs to find a couple of friends to play with.  If you totally want to change the setting, by a couple different books.  If you totally want to change the setting in 40k, it's another $200 and a codex.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 12:59:43 PM by House_of_Mustard »
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Re: The Eye of Terror
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2003, 12:54:45 PM »
You think Firelord is undercosted and broken? Cool, I want to play against you.
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