What I want for TWG

[Tage]

Because I am at the receiving end of suggestions/complaints/snarkiness/whathaveyou for the TWG website, I started thinking again about why on earth we have this site, anyway. Initially, it was an excuse to get free games. While it has fulfilled and continues to fulfill this original goal passably, it seems that various people want TWG to be various things.

On that note, here are some things that I think about regarding TWG. These are in no particular order, and some of them are strictly my deal. But please feel free to add or comment on anything after reading this.

First and foremost, I want to know WTH is up with PHP truncating strings when entering into MySQL for pre-built packages. Both the polls and phpmyadmin are doing this, but nothing else is. This only started happening after the Solaris 5.8 OS upgrade. Whatever the cause, it's given me renewed motivation to simply move my server back to FreeBSD. This would mean downtime for TWG as I worked out the problems that come with switching OS.

I know that most people enjoy the little titles associated with your post count, but I'm tired of the Perl YaBB and wish we could move to something MySQL-based. Of course, this would mean rewriting the entire user authentication system. (i.e. more downtime for TWG)

I hate the current way the departments are handled. TWG was originally built that way because EUOL wanted to have full control over his department pages. So I made it so each department has its own directory and homepage. Of course, shortly after EUOL stopped admining (is that a word?) and the only department that's ever had any significant work done is the RPG section. Everything else looks like crap.

If we aren't going to have department heads who want to actively maintain their own pages, I want to go back to the "single page template" that PHP-nuke uses. Adding features to a single department page is so much easier than going through every one in every directory. Also, then we'd be able to manage departments through the database, instead of having to do it all by hand.

When Fell and I started TWG, we really didn't know what to expect. I made the online article submission so that we could branch out and let other people write articles without making Fell do everything. At the time, we thought we'd have more admins: me, Fell, EUOL. Turns out EUOL and I aren't interested in maintaining the site content, so it ends up being all Fell anyway.

What we do have now, though, is a small but loyal group of regulars. Some of you even write great articles, so I'm glad we have the online thing. The question is, are all of you using it? If not, why? If so, what do you like or dislike about it? The one thing I'd really like is to see more content, and more submitters, working with TWG. I'm not sure how to facilitate that, though.

Despite all my ignoring and resisting, I personally feel that TWG still has a lot that could be improved. Most of the reason I avoid changing things is because there's no real consensus on what should be changed, and how. If we're just going to keep posting reviews here and there, and occasionally get free games for it, I see no reason to change anything at all. However, if the TWG community (now that we have one) wants something else, I feel like we should at least know what that is.

[Spriggan]

I agree with you on the deparment pages.  I've been the only one trying to maintain them and my lack of artisic ability has kept me from doing anything special for them.  And considering they're all the same format now why have seperate ones?

As I told Tage before I see no need in haveing redesign TWG for just a small request as haveing the authors name automaticaly appear in the blurb.  If there's a bunch of things he's going to do then ya it might be nice, but it's not something I care about.

[Fellfrosch]

A local MBA student has contacted me about doing some market research for TWG (ie, how to make it profitable) as his masters thesis project. It will take at least a year or more before we have any results, but it's a cool thing that could really help TWG take off (or not, depending on what they find).

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

ok, see, here's the thing.

If we want to be taken seriously, and I think we do, because being taken seriously means more free stuff, because the people who've already sent it will send again, and the people who don't yet, even if they're bigger, will say, "hey, this is a legit place." and want the exposure. Being taken seriously means getting more stuff, and getting that stuff more dependably.

This means several things. If we want to be taken seriously, we need to have dependable content, a professional looking site, and enthusiastic (as well as numerous) reader base.

1) Dependable content:
We need to be able to count on a certain number of new articles/reviews a week. I'd suggest three. This means that if Fell is out of town, someone needs to be able to post a submitted article. Now, yeah, maybe it sounds like power grabbing, but I spend more time here than most anyone. If you count coding time, SPriggan and Tage might beat me, but I read nearly all the articles now, and my post count has grown to third place (and closing fast on 2nd and 1st) since I started participating something like 6 months ago. So, that, combined with my reasons for caring that come later, and the spare time I have, make me say that I'd be happy to be backup content administrator. I won't be surprised if we get other interested parties.

The second thing we need for "dependable" is quality articles. Something I'm guilty of as much as anyone else, but seriously, someone should be editing these things. We should both proofread and suggest where the writing needs some work. Now, I'm not talking about rejecting articles or doing wholesale rewrites, especially when the problem is just that we disagree with what's being said, but I am suggesting that when a review doesn't do a good enough job (case in point, my recent Nobilis review -- which, incidentally has been updated, if you want to read it again) that the author should be told what he needs to do. This request would optimally be made within 72 hours of the article's submission, just to make it easy to keep additions frequent.

Third, it'd be nice if we got a few more articles besides reviews. We've had a couple "strategy" guides, and the Rifts article about what to get was really good, but we don't see them very often. I think we should get anecdotes, rules conversions, free games, maybe even theory or tips. New ORP's could even be advertised for a week on the main page, which would get some attention from lurkers to our forum, which I'll get into in part three.

Development in the areas of books and movies would be nice.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

2) We already have a pretty sharp looking site, maybe with the exception of what happens with that banner on the forum. But if we're going for serious, we need to make changes. To make this easier, I think we need to let Tage do his new things. If we're down for a short time to make a better TWG, we can suffer (so long as we're talking, days, not months). Incidentally, I believe YABB's more recent efforts are PHP/MySQL based. Uniform dept pages would be good, and as Tage points out, easy.

But that also means that we need to agree what changes to be made. This means we need a committee for this. I don't know how to determine the committe, other than it should be headed by Fell, seconded by our coder (Tage) and with some of the frequent rabble thrown in. But only Rabble who are willing to participate in the decisions and accept assignments that may be given (if any). This committee doesn't have to "meet." Through the magic of our own forum, we could do a hidden topic where the members just discuss, vote, and come to a conclusion.

3) Enthusiastic/Numerous reader base:
Brett Murrell of Duel of Ages mentioned that the reason we're getting a copy of it is that we have an active forum. And we do, but only about a dozen of hte members are active. I don't have the number counts, but we've got to have more readers than that. 100 people have registered on the board, so I'm sure SOME of them read occassionally. I'm sure there are a number who just refuse to message board (like I don't at gameknot or bm.com), and some of them just because there's only a tiny link to the forum. More things to call attention to it would be nice. Maybe a default piece of code that shows up on every article inviting readers to visit the forum to discuss the review or article. Getting activity on the forum will help get

To increase readership, we need to reach out. Maybe some stealthy ads for ourselves at RPG.net or other places wehre readers can interact. I'm not talking about showing up, posting a link, and then disappearing, but maybe if someone posts on those they could put the URL in their signature, find an excuse to refer to an article or discussion, etc. just off hand I can think of potential crossover readership existing at theforce.net, rpg.net, wizards.com, geekculture, slashdot, and only about a billion web sites dedicated to gaming.

This is also why I dreamed up a more comprehensive evaluation of different systems. If we can be seen as a resource, not just an occassional, than we can attract casual readers as well.

So there, that's my little treatise on "how to be taken seriously." That would help us be "smooth and mellow and very profitable" int he words of Dr. Teeth, as Fell is indicating might be possible from his last post.



Now, for what *I* want? I'll admit, I have an ulterior motive for being taken seriously. If we're solid player, than I can list my contributive writings and potential editing work on a resume and show it off. And yeah, I want more games. I often feel like being a known factor would improve our chances with the people I talk to about that. Plus it's a fun place, and it'd be nice to know that despite the name, it's not JUST a waste of time to hang out here.

[JP Dogberry]

I found the site a few months ago, and strted reading most of the articles. I liked the idea of the site: a collection of writings about various games and assorted other nerdary. Coincidently, this was a round the time my existing forum community was falling apart, so I decided to join this one. I lurked the forums, decided that the people were interesting, and then registered and started posting, along with writing occasional reviews.

What I found was the biggest problem with the site is the lack of articles. Usually, there was about one a day, but sometimes there are several days with nothing new. Part of my joining was because I want to remedy this. It's a great site, but I felt (and feel) that I can add something to it. So far I've written three or so reviews, and I have a couple of ideas of some others I plan to write sometime soon.

I agree with the comments on needing more than reviews, but I see it this way. I am a new member to the community, and I'm still settling in and finding my place here. As such, I could write other things, but I see few of them posted, and so feel almost like they don't quite fit in. Entering an existing community, I don't want to be seen as trampling in and forcing you all to do things my way, but rather I want to meld to adapt to the existing community.

OK, I know that was a bit of a ramble, and had no actual flow to it, but it's my opinion on the matter.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

right. he sees MY two posts and then calls THAT a ramble. Let me tell you, in the world of rambling, you're as amature as a pokemon fan at a Warhammer 20k tourney.

(now, if that isn't the nerdiest thing I've ever said, I'm a bit lost).

Anyway, My first reaction to your post is "don't worry about fitting in." Of course, if no one likes it, it's likely to be ripped to shreds in the forum, but we're not here to enforce a world view, we want to see material about games. Sometimes we like it, sometimes we don't. But I don't know that "fitting in" is a problem. Submit your stuff. Or, if you prefer, send your material to one of the forum members. You can catch me on IM (and hopefully soon I'll be back on broadband and will be able to have my identities logged in ALWAYS) in the mronings soemtimes, and occassionally late at night. AIM, Yahoo, and ICQ are listed in my profile, my MSN id is arturiuspendragon@hotmail. if you see me, just ask. My email works too.

[JP Dogberry]

Ramble refers more to the structure than the length, but I see your point.

Thanks for that. If i do have any questions or such, I will make a point to ask someone. Anyway, doing my part to fix the content problems, expect a review of the homebrew RPG "Powergame" in the next few days. Now I've promised it, I might actually get around to writing it.

[Spriggan]

SE about 90% of what you talked about has been discussed heavly amoung the Utah people.  Some of you might remeber that we use to have weekly meetings, that what we'd talk about.  And some times we still do.

One of the biggest problems with reliable content as you put it is no matter what people say/promise it allwayse comes down to 2 or 3 people doing everything.  Especialy when it comes to reivews.  Too many of us don't have time to devote countless hours to a project that dosen't pay.  Even doing one article a week is hard when you work, goto school or have a familiy.  We've had two other times in the past where the same thing was happening and from past experence I can say chances are not much is going to happen, even if Tage remakes the site and every one start contributing regulary.  After a month or so it'll stop.  I'm sorry if this sounds pessamistic but reality sucks sometimes.  I'm personaly sick of trying to come up with new things/ideas just to have them mocked or ignored by everyone else here (Entropy is the only one who ever humors me).  And frankly I don't have to time or the desire to waste time on a site that most people who come here don't seam to care about.  Not to say I'm going to stop comming to TWG or doing articles.  But why should I be trying to come up with way to improve the site when at the time no one gave a flying $@#&.  You should have spoken up about six months ago, then I would have been more excited about this.

As for non review content that's what draws people to a site.  I've allwayse advocated this, but again you need people to devote the time for a lot of this.  Like developing RPG stuff or new table top stuff.  It;s never worked out.  EUOL was working on a new RPG for TWG but no one replyed to his posts about it so he stoped because "No one at TWG cared".

As for advertiseing we'd love todo it but none of us are going to spend the little cash we have now for it. It's just not worth it right now with how the site is.

The main reason I do stuff for TWG isn;t for free thigs (heck I get hardly anything), all though it was the reason at first.  But to do something fun with friends that we'd all enjoy.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I wasn't involved at first because I felt neglected.

Sorry you sound so pessimistic, but a few notes:

-I wasn't advocating spending any money on advertising. I was thinking of word of mouth, precisely because it inovolves spending no money.

-the problem is breaking out of the cycle. A more regular and complete site will generate more tangible rewards than the occassional freebie and some good times. More tangible rewards will generate more enthusiasm for providing/maintaiing content. etc. if we can get some of us started, and set REASONABLE goals, then we can go. That's why I said something like 3 articles a week, not daily posting.

-You do have an additional benefit. Jeffe and I are active members now, and we've done all kinds of crazy stuff. we even made a magazine between HS and my mission just cuz we could. Now that Fell let us run TWG-East (with his confirmation), we'll be providing more.

-another content idea, serialized writing. i have some ideas that would be fun but that I'll never turn into a real novel, and putting them up here would be kinda fun.

So that's what I have to say, i gues the real question is to the others involved. Do you WANT this to be "serious" or just "hobby?" Because if no one else wants to go, I'll turn to other projects and I'll dedicate a lot less time to TWG. I'm not necesarily having grandiose dreams of high profit, just something we can use as a real resume/portfolio item. Though it may eventually be profitable in the long term, and it may be more than I'm thinking. The point is to start small. Nothing worthwhile is going to happen without a lot of work and dedication.

So, Fell? Tage? 42? (even EUOL, though I'm thinking your decision is made)? Hobby? or Legit?

[Spriggan]

SE I do not dissagree with you on any of those points, I've allwayse beleaved them too.  But I have a hard time convincing myself that this time people will actualy keep to a scedule.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

well, schedule is definitely a major concern. But we also need commitment. There's no need even talking about a schedule if there's only one or two people who want to pursue it.

[Lieutenant Kije]

I've always thought about posting a review now and then, but haven't because 1. I felt like I was still kind of new, 2. well, I thought there was a two but there isn't, and 3. my inherent laziness feeds upon no. 1.  Maybe I will now.  

[Fellfrosch]

The first thing I need to point out (which SE already mentioned but Spriggan seems to need reminding of) is that any proposed change, no matter what it is, will neither be immediately accepted nor swiftly implemented. Things take time, and they require agreements, and they require well-formed plans.

I like to consider this a legit site, since it's been on my resume for a while and helped me get my last two jobs--and that was over two years ago, back when the site was much smaller. For me, legit means three things: there's a lot of content, it's well-written/well-formatted, and it's easy to find. An active forum community is a part of it as well, but I tend to see that as an effect of the first three (though forum-only programs such as the online games certainly help).

Tage is working on our coding and our search engine to help make our content easier to find. We need to fix the department pages and institute a few new formatting conventions. But the main thing that makes or breaks this site is the consistent and frequent posting of new content, and for that we need help. There's about three and a half people who provide consistent content right now, and that's not enough. We've tried the "staff member" model, where you're responsible for one article a week, and that hasn't worked. We've tried the "pot luck" model, where the regular writers fill in the gaps with whoever decides to submit, and that's worked better. Can you think of any other ideas?

I'm thinking of a more organized version of the pot luck model--let's call it the "requisition" model. We set up a handful of regular writers who agree to form a sort of staff; these people (I'm thinking of myself, SE, and Jeffe, mostly) will agree to at least one article a week, and will coordinate together at least one week in advance. We supplement that with me requesting articles from forum members--I'll send emails and ask you to write an article by a certain date. I may or may not give you a topic. If you have an idea for an article, tell me about it and save me the trouble of requesting one.

That's just one idea; there's plenty of things we could do. What do you think?

[Tage]

Sprig and SE, the discussion you're having is one we've often had. And as much as I hate to agree with Sprig (just as a general rule), he's right in that our biggest problem has always been this: people SAY they'll be active and contribute regularly, but eventually drop out. That, to me, is why TWG has stayed where it's at over the years.

Also, for me TWG is just a hobby. I don't have any plans on showing it to someone in a professional environment. So I'm just as guilty as anyone else for not contributing. I would, however, be willing to make upgrades to the site if I thought it would benefit a majority of people here. Plus, I would like it to be cool. I enjoy being a part of cool things.

In short, I guess I'm sitting the fence. There are a lot of things I think *can* be done with TWG, but I'm only willing to do them if other people take the lead.

EDIT: Fell and I posted at the same time. And I totally agree with him on what would/does make this a legit site. Still, the problem remains getting people to submit. How does everyone feel about that?