Author Topic: Ancient Evil  (Read 1886 times)

Fellfrosch

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Ancient Evil
« on: April 05, 2004, 03:57:30 PM »
As mentioned in today's rant (http://www.timewastersguide.com/view.php?id=713), the old "rise of ancient evil" plot seems to show up far more often in fantasy games and stories than you'd expect. Can you, in fact, write a truly epic fantasy story that doesn't involve ancient evil?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 03:59:07 PM by Fellfrosch »
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 04:13:13 PM »
yes, but it's handy for sympathizing.

You could always have them fighting misunderstanding or something. A confusion, etc.

Miore when I've thought about it.

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2004, 05:29:57 PM »
ok, as for bigger = better. This moves off subject a bit, but it's the problem with the JLA comics. I was geting bored with it for 2 reasons. 1) it was starting to get incomprehensible. They'd do 5 or 6 issue story lines, and everything would just be getting worse and worse and worse until the last issue of the arc, when suddenly everything was taken care of. I can't figure out half of them. It was like reading Mary Worth with super powers in that we'd have several issues of just talking about how bad things are getting.
2) the universe can only self destruct so many times before you're thinking: Geez, just let it go. Start over.

the problem is you've got Superman AND Batman AND Wonder Woman AND Green Lantern AND Martian Manhunter AND the Flash (ok, and Aquaman), AND usually 5 other back ups, one of which is a frickin ANGEL. A real one. Like, from God n' stuff. Any ONE of them can throw down with a Greek/Norse/Hindu/Anything God. Put all twelve of them together and well, what can even be a remote challenge but the end of the universe? Answer: nothing, really. Lex Luthor even looks like a pansy except for the fact that he can get all the Superviillains together for a party and a good brawl (which usually doesn't end up a brawl anymore, disappointingly).

So I for one, don't think you have to go threaten the fabric of reality every time. It gets dull.

However, threaten the social structure, etc. It doesn't have to be a supernatural evil. WWII was a good example. You can do some epic stuff with that, and the Nazis don't have to be channelling Tiamat to be an overwhelming challenge (unless they're up against Superman, which, as has been shown in Whom Gods Destroy, they have to at least be challening various Greek mythological figures).

You can have an epic struggle just averting a war, like Nuclear war, because two nations misunderstood, a la Sum of All Fears. Localize it. As long as it means the end of the world for the community at hand, even a small village, I would think it's big enough. We don't care about the gits at the other side of the continent, so who cares that their lives will go on unchanged.

I still think new threats can develop without them having to be ancient. Maybe an alien race makes a startling breakthrough in tech that allows them to put smack down on anything, and you have to find the weakness.

Also, War of the Worlds showed us that the evil didn't have to be ancient to discover an Achilles Heal for it on our own planet/in our own locality. The Martians were a brand new threat Earth had no experience with, but just have one person discover that bio weapons would work, instead of having it be a pure accident, and voila, epic hero.

And at the risk of sounding generic, the corrupted person can be family (like Darth Vader) or a friend (like the first act of NWN).

I'll wait for reaction before I say more.

Fellfrosch

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2004, 07:34:28 PM »
I agree with most of your points here, particularly regarding the overly cosmic scope of DC comics, but my rant was specifically aimed at fantasy--every non-ancient evil option you proposed was either modern or sci-fi.

Which leads me to an interesting point that Tage brought up on IM--most sci-fi tends to focus on new threats, whereas most epic fantasy deals with old threats. Could that, at some level, be a defining difference between the two genres?
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EUOL

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2004, 07:40:11 PM »
You have to define 'Epic,' Fell.

GAME OF THRONES:  Current evil.

ASSASSIN'S APPRENTICE:  Current evil.

David Gemmel:  Often Current Evil.


All three sell very well.  Now, the first two are political intrigue and the last one is sword and sorcery, but there's certainly a place for 'new threats.'  However, if you define 'Epic Fantasy' as 'Fantasy where the heroes fight an ancient evil...'  well, then, there you go.

(p.s.  Tor calls ELANTRIS 'epic fantasy' because of its length, but it doesn't really focus on an ancient evil.)
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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2004, 07:57:35 PM »
they may be SF or modern, but  most are easily translatable to a fantasy setting. Plus you used Star Wars, which, even if you argue is more fantasy than SF, can use most or even all of the scenarios I presented as is. They in fact did, with the stupid New Jedi Order setting. Ok, it's crap, but still.

Fellfrosch

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2004, 08:17:28 PM »
I'm basically defining epic as "the fabric of the universe is in peril."
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 08:19:11 PM by Fellfrosch »
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Heahengel

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2004, 03:53:19 AM »
@ EUOL
Game of Thrones (by George R. R. Martin, right?) - plenty of ancient evil there (depending on how far in the series you've read).  I think that in the later books of the series, the ancient evil will become a main focus.

I agree with you more about Gemmel though (some of his books fit into this catagory, but not all).  Of course the ones that I can think of that aren't about an ancient evil don't fall under Fellfrosch's definition of epic, although I admit I haven't read all of Gemmels books.

EUOL

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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2004, 07:33:19 AM »
Ah, SONG OF FIRE AND ICE (I think that's the GoT series) might be about an ancient evil, but GAME OF THRONES itself is not.  I assumed that it would get into ancient evil eventually, but I didn't read past the first book (i.e., after he killed off or humiliated every character in the book I liked.)

This, however, raises another point.  'Epic,' I've recently come to understand, was defined by the Greeks as having two criteria:  1) The story was long.  2) It involved the gods.  

By that definition, it would be tough to have an 'epic fantasy' that doesn't involve an ancient evil--since it has to be something that involves the interest of the gods.
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Re: Ancient Evil
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2004, 07:37:03 AM »
here's my current thinking.

You're talking about fantasy
You're talking about the "fabric of the universe in peril"
I'm not entirely sure where else you want them to go but ancient evil. new technological equivelants are pretty much out of the question. They could come up with a new spell, I suppose, but what's the point of a spell that destroys everything unless you're serving the purposes of a dark god or something, which brings you back to ancient evil.

I think you need to refine your definition, though. "fabric of the universe in peril" doesn't accurately describe Star Wars.