Author Topic: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour  (Read 9297 times)

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2006, 02:35:45 PM »
a doldrum?
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2006, 02:42:38 PM »
Doldrum. right. sorry!
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2006, 02:44:13 PM »
that almost became a musical opening...
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2006, 07:03:06 PM »
The NHS is in a mess, but that's because it needs reform badly. It's got enough money.

The idea that people would seriously suggest that no free healthcare is a good idea makes my head hurt.
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2006, 07:52:48 PM »
There are really two kinds of free healthcare.  
1: The kind where those providing it choose to do so and to spend their money to do so.  Things like Operation Smile and all those church run hospitals that treat the indigent.

2: The kind where those providing it are forced to do so and are also forced to spend their money to do so.  That's socialized medicine.  In the end it's just the government taking your money at gunpoint in order to give it to someone else.

Obviously, there never has been and never can be truly "free" healthcare.  Someone is footing the bill in every case.  I agree wholeheartedly with Entsuropi that the idea that you'd refuse to treat someone because they didn't have enough cold hard cash is horrific.  On the other hand I also find the idea of someone taking money from me at gunpoint and redistributing it to be horrific and exactly like all those failed experiments in communism, or a mugging.

I don't know how to balance the two.  Anybody?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 07:54:10 PM by Skar »
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2006, 08:03:14 PM »
So do you have a problem with roads, schools, libraries or a military? These are all things your taxes go for. Is someone mugging you to pay for those? Im not trying to be snarky with the question, im generally curious.

People dont seem to mind taxes for other things, or at least dont mind their benefits so why would health care be different?

It just seems like some things in this country cant or wont be done by an individual, so we need to tax and use those taxes for the betterment of the whole or the protection of the individual.

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JP Dogberry

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2006, 08:11:56 PM »
Exactly what has been said. Yay, America's rich. Guess what, you CAN'T EAT MONEY. I live in a less rich country, but I live in one where if I'm sick, someone's gona help me get better if I'm rich or not. Money does not HAVE to come from somewhere, because money doesn't exist - it is merely a social value ascribed to near worthless pieces of paper and metals. Money is not a justification for anything. Try True Cost Economics - Economics that calculates costs based on environmental impact and resources.

Yes, I have an anarchy symbol in my picture. Yes, I have isocratic beliefs. I do not have communist beliefs. Communism is not the same as Isocracy. You really should do research before you bash me based on that. You also say no-one lives well, but I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of true isocracies around to test that theory. It's not an easy system to create, and probably will require posthumanism first, which is ok by me.

Oh, and Go Forbid that people might not be able to get rich! I mean, there are many countries full fo starving people, human rights abuses, and even in the same country, people living in poverty. But no, it would be horrible to share economic wealth around and let them have enough to eat, because then some people can't be richer than others!

To use an example, I know e doesn't make THAT much money. But ask him about his daughters and if that doesn't make him the richest man around. Money doesn't equal happiness, and being rich in money isn't that great. I myself earn a huge amount of money, but that hasn't brought me half the happiness my girlfriend has.

Anyway, I'm not saying the US is bad - I'm saying that the health care system you use is terrible.
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2006, 02:46:04 AM »
First, great article...love the series so far.

Second, did I miss something?  I get busy, don't check the forums for a while and Jeffe gets a new job.  Are you still in the Coast Guard, Jeffe?  Fill me in, yo!

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2006, 07:50:23 AM »
part time job...
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Spriggan

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2006, 08:19:55 AM »
Which we're all glad he got since it gives us an interesting article to read.

No one wants to hear me talk about web design at my job, though the crazy global events lady is good for a few laughs.  Like how we're not supposed to use any fonts, graphics, ect that show cracks in them because it's bad luck in one part of Asia. (FYI for those that heard the other stories about her, this is the same nutty lady that wants me to work under her as director of global websites.  She just kind of promoted me one day I guess, which got my boss laughing since she has no authority to do so).
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 08:22:58 AM by Spriggan »
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2006, 09:17:04 AM »
Quote
The NHS is in a mess, but that's because it needs reform badly. It's got enough money.

The idea that people would seriously suggest that no free healthcare is a good idea makes my head hurt.

Sorry to make your head hurt, Ent, but no, I don't agree with socialized medicine. Primarily because every NHS is in a mess and needs reform badly. Maybe there's enough money in it, but it doesn't get used right. Whereas I pay for my healthcare, (well, copay, my current boss is generous enough to cover full cost of my health insurance) and I pretty much get any care I need the moment I make the phone call.  

It *works* better. Maybe you don't have to pay for it, but that's only natural, because you shouldn't have to pay to be raped.

Skar

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2006, 12:19:42 PM »
Quote
So do you have a problem with roads, schools, libraries or a military? These are all things your taxes go for. Is someone mugging you to pay for those? Im not trying to be snarky with the question, im generally curious.

People dont seem to mind taxes for other things, or at least dont mind their benefits so why would health care be different?

It just seems like some things in this country cant or wont be done by an individual, so we need to tax and use those taxes for the betterment of the whole or the protection of the individual.


Excellent question, and one I was expecting.  

I think socialized medicine is a stupid idea.    Since it's my money and I don't want to pay for it, I shouldn't HAVE to pay for it.  I agree with the need for roads and a military and the other things you mentioned and would willingly pay my share even if the gov'mint didn't already take my money before I ever touch it.  And yes, I am currently being mugged by the government for things like the NEA and dole welfare programs and so on.

Having a military, a police force, and roads are efficient methods for protecting the country and it's interests, keeping people safe and protecting property rights in an orderly society, and moving necessary goods from place to place effectively.  Socialized medicine is not an efficient method for providing all necessary healthcare to  a country's citizens.  That has been proven many times in the past and is being born out everywhere it's practiced right now.

So we agree that taxes should be used for the betterment of the whole and the protection of the individual.  Socialized medicine does not do either of those things in the long run while the infrastructures you listed do.

As for your argument, "People dont seem to mind taxes for other things, or at least don't mind their benefits so why would health care be different?" That line of reasoning can and has been used for everything up to and including gas chambers for jews.  Imagine if someone said "People don't mind taxes for supporting the road system so why should they mind taxes to pay for a really efficient method of liquidating all the illegal immigrants and solving that whole problem really quickly?"  Yes it's a ridiculous example but your argument works equally well in both cases.
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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2006, 12:33:19 PM »
Also Heath Care is VERY expensive, MSN just had an article about tax rates by country (I'll see if I can find it) and the countries with Socialized heath care were all around 50% tax rate.  In the us the average is 20% for single and 11% for married with one kid.  Is universal heath care really worth a 30-40% increase in taxes?
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Skar

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Re: Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2006, 12:39:51 PM »
Quote
Exactly what has been said. Yay, America's rich. Guess what, you CAN'T EAT MONEY. I live in a less rich country, but I live in one where if I'm sick, someone's gona help me get better if I'm rich or not. Money does not HAVE to come from somewhere, because money doesn't exist - it is merely a social value ascribed to near worthless pieces of paper and metals. Money is not a justification for anything. Try True Cost Economics - Economics that calculates costs based on environmental impact and resources.


Jam, it doesn't matter what you call the expenditure, whether it's money or environmental impact and resources things still COST.  Healthcare COSTS.  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  And no matter how you manipulate the symbols or how stridently you call socialized medicine "free healthcare" someone somewhere is paying for it and if it's not the peope receiving the service right now, eventually it will be, probably when the system breaks down and nobody can get healthcare.

Quote
Yes, I have an anarchy symbol in my picture. Yes, I have isocratic beliefs. I do not have communist beliefs. Communism is not the same as Isocracy. You really should do research before you bash me based on that. You also say no-one lives well, but I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of true isocracies around to test that theory. It's not an easy system to create, and probably will require posthumanism first, which is ok by me.


Ok, now I'm curious.  What is Isocaracy?  Jam, I ask in all sincerity for a summary of that belief system from you.  Who better to ask than a proponent?

Quote
Oh, and Go Forbid that people might not be able to get rich! I mean, there are many countries full fo starving people, human rights abuses, and even in the same country, people living in poverty. But no, it would be horrible to share economic wealth around and let them have enough to eat, because then some people can't be richer than others!


Actually, as was proven in the former Soviet Union and is still being proven in North Korea, among others, forcibly redistributing wealth and thereby disconnecting labor from its fruits leads to the worst class disparity the world has ever seen.  99% of the population in the USSR lived in abject grinding poverty with all its attendant evils while the  high government officials and the criminal kingpins lived in the lap of luxury.  The same is true in N.Korea today and in Cuba and so on.  Perhaps I've misunderstood though.  If you are trumpeting the idea that it's morally right for people to voluntarily choose to use their wealth to benefit the poor I wholeheartedly agree.  It simply has to be voluntary to work.
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