Behind the Counter: $5.15 an Hour

[FirstMateJack]

Accch... Commies. Shoulda taken that government out right after Hitlers.

[JP Dogberry]

See, just to make sure it's clear, unlike the civil parts of the world, the way I understand it is that in the US, if you don't have private health insurance the government provides nothing - you get sick and have no money and you're stuffed.

[The Lost One]

The US government does provide several program to help certain individuals to cover the cost of medical care. An example is someone who is working for $5.15 an hour as long as they have kids or have some disability or are above the age of 65. Unfortunately, getting this help in some state is next to impossible and in other states they help anyone who applies.

It should also be noted that with the decreasing number of people private health insurance, this government aid is necessary so that doctors can make their six digit salaries (after their residency of course) and hospitals can charge $400 for a box of tissues.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

See, just to make sure it's clear, unlike the civil parts of the world, the way I understand it is that in the US, if you don't have private health insurance the government provides nothing - you get sick and have no money and you're stuffed.

funny how being "civil" corellates to "weak economic power." Seriously jam, stop the US bashing. It'll only piss us off (which, I assume, you're doing on purpose, in which case, BAD FORM!)

[FirstMateJack]

Judging by the anarchist symbol, I am under the impression that you are all for Anarchy and Communism... which is odd, because under both, no one lives well.

Don't tell me you want the government to just.. "take care of everything". The money has to come from somewhere.. and I know what you are going to say.. it is the same thing every leftist says, Just tax the rich...

You can't keep taxing rich people without end to make them pay for other peoples social issues.

2 reasons.

1:  You have never been, nor will ever be hired by a poor person. Rich business owners who start to lose money start cutting jobs and wages in order to keep the business afloat.

2: The incentive for starting a business and living the American dream is gone.. who wants to try to get rich if Millions of people on medi-care are just going to take it away from you? You have the problem of Russian potatos.

For these reasons America is the richest country ever, even if you added all of the European nations together, by far! Because people learn to take care of themselves and not rely on Big brother to help them out.



And no, right now in the U.S. many states have charity laws, which say if you can't afford healthcare, the hospital is to do it out of charity. This has caused several hopsitals in California to go out of business due to the illegal immigrant problem.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

For these reasons America is the richest country ever, even if you added all of the European nations together, by far! Because people learn to take care of themselves and not rely on Big brother to help them out.  

Sometimes, money or the aquisition of wealth aren't as important as we think it is. How truely wealthy are we if a signifigant percentage of our population is suffering? In terms of money how much more wealthy would we be if the people who couldnt afford health care recieved care when they were sick? How many missed work days would they be able to make up? How many other people would be spared from contagious diseases if the carriers recieved early treatment? Total quality of life must surely be as valuable as GDP and Per capita income.

[The Lost One]

America is rich and part of the reason is that if you don't work 3000 hours a year, then you don't get healthcare or a house and many other things. Now in many countries in Europe you can do no work and the government will take care of you (at least until the government can't fund their expensive welfare systems anymore because the number of rich people keep on declining).

Unfortunately, real wages in America are declining, so everyone will have to work more and more (and get more and more education) to earn the same amount of money (unless you're one of the 8.3 million millionaires in the US). It should also be noted that the rich are gettng richer in the US and the poor are getting poorer but that better than in many countries.

[Fellfrosch]

Holy cow, lay off of Jam, people. Obviously he touched a nerve, but there's no need to beat him up.

Also: are we really rich if we have an immense foreign debt that we will never, realistically, be able to pay off?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Sometimes, money or the aquisition of wealth aren't as important as we think it is. How truely wealthy are we if a signifigant percentage of our population is suffering? In terms of money how much more wealthy would we be if the people who couldnt afford health care recieved care when they were sick? How many missed work days would they be able to make up? How many other people would be spared from contagious diseases if the carriers recieved early treatment? Total quality of life must surely be as valuable as GDP and Per capita income.

Sure it does. But every story of anyone needing serious care in socialized medicine countries is a nightmare.

How can your socialized medicine be an improvement when you have major movements in places like Finland to start a private sector health-care insurance (so people can actually get care instead of being screwed over by the government) or when you have citizens pay full price (instead of nothing) for an operation in another country rather than wait eighteen months at home to get the surgery at home so they can live without pain?

I keep hearing socialized medicine touted as a good thing, but I've only recently come above the technical poverty line, and I've been taken care of very well in the health care department under private health care.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Its a balance E, but one that we shouldn't offhandedly dismiss, socialized medicine is hardly a panacea but then again private medicine leaves a lot of people wanting. It seems like hubris to brag about our wealth if we can't or wont provide for the poor in any signifigant way especially when more people become poor every year.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

You're right, privatization is the worst system

...except for all the other ones out there.

No, it's not perfect, but it's hardly hubris to say we're doing better when we actually are. Or do I need to remind you that you're arguing we're doing better off than most places in another thread?

[Tink]

I know what you are going to say.. it is the same thing every leftist says, Just tax the rich...

You can't keep taxing rich people without end to make them pay for other peoples social issues.

2 reasons.

1:  You have never been, nor will ever be hired by a poor person. Rich business owners who start to lose money start cutting jobs and wages in order to keep the business afloat.

2: The incentive for starting a business and living the American dream is gone.. who wants to try to get rich if Millions of people on medi-care are just going to take it away from you? You have the problem of Russian potatos.

It's interesting that you say that because I was reading a book recently that was talking about how the rich are able to pay less taxes than the poor. For one, you have rich people in Congress, and well are they really going to pass something that is really bad for them? No way.

Two, the rich have people working for them who are smart enough to help them pay as little tax as possible. I don't really understand the logistics of it because I'm not an accountant, but it has something to do with owning your own corporation. When you do, you can spend as much as you want from what the corporation makes tax free. The only money that is taxed is the money that is left over at the end of the year. The author talked about how he was able to use the money to buy a Porsche (in cash, being rich and all) and it was tax-free money. And all he did to create a corporation was buy some real estate (apartment buildings and such) and put them in a corporation he created. He started small with one house, then when he sold it took the proceeds to buy a bigger house (which is tax-free if you reinvest), then a small apartment complex, then a bigger place, and kept doing that.

I'm sure there are some rules on what you can spend this money on, but he didn't go into detail on that. It really changed how I look at money, though. I recommend anyone reading his books. His name is Robert Kiyosaki and the one I read was Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Totally recommended!

But what I'm saying is that the rich have a way to pay less taxes (percantage-wise) than the poor. So yeah.

I like what others have said, though, about how we need to figure out how to take care of ourselves and not rely on the rich to do it. Otherwise we might turn into those people with entitlement issues who think they deserve this and that just because (no real reason why). It bugs. But I hope I have a job with health insurance for that reason! It can be very expensive!

[FirstMateJack]

The difference between a rich country and a poor country is that the rich country has the opportunity, if it chooses, to help out.

I agree, it isn't fair that someone who can't afford to get healthcare doesn't trust me, my wife and I have been there. But the government can't provide it, by itself or just by taxing the rich. History proves it time and time again. Europe (France especially) is running into huge problems because of this, Russia's living was one of the worst of a "modern nation" in our history, not just in healthcare but in food as well! When McDonalds first went in, there wasn't one potato that could be turned into a french fry, they all had to be imported, they were all (yes, everyone) to small being poorly grown and fertilized, because no one cared to do well when you aren't rewarded or punished. When you get to far to the left (or right) it doesn't work.


Good point Tink, I have read that book. It was good. As for taxes, I totally and completely favor flat tax. everyone pays the same.

The only reason they do things like giving tax breaks is because if you get a tax break for building a huge apartment complex, the government loves it!! they will gladly give you 500K break for building cheap housing that would otherwise cost them 4-5 million.
That is why these laws are in place. Unfortunately it is easy to take advantage of and buy cars.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Even if the private system by itself isn't the best system Im not arguing that it needs to go away, or that its evil. I also dont think I would argue that its better than every other system out there because I dont have the data to back that up. Frankly third party anecdotes about operations in other countries dont do that job. I have my own anecdote that influences my opinion a bit. When my wife was in Spain in college she fell and cracked her head open on the cobblestones she needed a lot of stiches. In America she would have had to pay an arm and a leg for care 500-1000 dollars for the ambulance ride, 100 dollars for the bandages, 300 dollars for stiches and painkillers and so on.  In Spain she paid 10 dollars and waited 10 minutes to be seen. It wasnt the horror story that I hear a lot from americans about socialized medice.


But your right, socialized medicine itself isn't always good enough and there are gaps in quality. Im not prepared to offhandedly dismiss it without investigating it or other health care options more closely though.

I don't hate private medicine by any means but I don't think I have to settle for it just because I've been told "its the best" I'd like to read and learn more about it. It doesn't seem like the best on the surface, and maybe thats what Im reacting to. But I wish more people had access to health care.

[FirstMateJack]

I think they are probably great for emergencies. I know that we had to wait in line for an hour before we could buy cough medicine. Of course.. that can happen at a grocery store. I don't think any one system is the best. I don't know what the ideal system is, and I don't feel anyone else does either.. were kind of in a duldrum.