Timewaster's Guide Archive

When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.

I'll answer this one first because it will help in answering happyman and because I was actually going to mention this in my last response but it felt tacked one.  I'm glad you mentioned it. 

I think that, rather than storing gravity(Which had been my idea as well and always irked me) I think that it would make more sense that Storing(I think I'm going to capitalize Store and Burn when talking about Feruchemy and Allomancy, respectively.  Less confusing) in Iron actually stores the Feruchemist's Higgs Bosons rather than gravity itself.  I wouldn't put it past Mr. Sanderson to have thought it out that far.
For those of us who have not had an education in physics I'll give you a simple explanation of what the Higgs Boson is: The Higgs Boson is the particle that gives all the other particles their mass.  It sounds odd, but it's currently the best idea we've got for why everything has mass.  The more massive an object is, the more gravity it generates/space it distorts, and the more "weight" it has.  It would make sense that Storing 'weight' is actually Storing 'mass' in the form of Higgs Bosons'.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that is how Mr. Sanderson worked it out and he just never bothered to elaborate because he's never needed to.

For more reading on the Standard Model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
If that's too much, here's the easier one: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model  (That's the one I sent my mom.) 

Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe?  Why tie your imagination to that loadstone?  It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.

It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection.  Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space. 
Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle.  Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.
I understand that there are many ways to view time(Including the multiple time dimensions theories[Hypothesis'?] and whatnot), but in none of the ideas that aren't completely off the wall speculation, is time an attribute of matter.

As for my imagination, more often than not, it's tied to reality and I rather like it that way.  If something is completely magical, though, I can go with it just fine.

Also, so you know, it's not my intent to be or appear hostile but I have some kind of drive for others to understand my position as it is, not the way they think it is.  It gets me into arguments when I wont let something go because there is a misunderstanding, however small.  Might have to do with my obsessive compulsiveness.

I always feel like there's more to say.

Before I respond to others I'd like to make an idea I had known.
I was looking over the Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy chart in the back of HoA and that grouping for Feruchemy, while not as obvious as Allomancy, finally jumped out at me.
With the mention of storing emotion from Zas678, it occurred to me that the Enhancement Metals are going to store emotion or emotion-related attributes.

Here's my thinking:
The Physical Metals Store: Strength, Senses, Speed, and Weight -- Loosely 'physical' stuff
The Mental Metals Store: Warmth, Memories, Wakefulness, and Mental Speed -- Loosely 'internal' stuff
The Temporal Metal Stores: Health(I await the others, they will be interesting)
The Enhancement Metals Store: [Emotion/Emotion-related whatnots]

In this light, it makes sense(With the emotional storage information) for the Feruchemical Metals to be labeled similarly to the Allomantic ones, but I can't come up with good names, I had a few but they melted as I typed and now completely escape me.  As always; suggestions!?

Quote from: Turbolinux999 on July 01, 2009, 04:40:18 AM

Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does.  Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all.  Age is purely biological.

I still fail to see a meaningful distinction.  We experience time by (among other things) aging.  It is part of our biology, true.  The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true).  It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging.  Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines.  However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging.  Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics.  I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.  I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world.  It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.

I had a great response written for you... then I closed Firefox and forgot to post it.  I wanted to make it a little less hostile before I posted it, but that point is moot now.
I'll direct you to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I age  ->  Time passes  ->  I age because time passes == Bad logic
Televisions are made of atoms  ->  I'm made of atoms  ->  I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.
I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Note: I wasn't trying to snow you, I was trying to simplify the concept because I was not aware that everyone reading and posting here were quantum physicists.

The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.

I do agree that it is irrelevant, mostly; especially considering that the thread title is, 'On Feruchemical 'Mistings'' and not, 'The likelihood of the Temporal metals having temporal effects in Feruchemy'

While that is true, there is no evidence(So far) that those groupings(Physical, Mental, Temporal, and Enhancement) will apply to the other Metallic Arts.  Everyone seems to want to apply those across the board.  The only completely consistent metal is Tin.  Feruchemical uses for metals obviously follow a grouping "rule", but the only Temporal metal that we know for sure is Gold and it stores health and that's definitely not time.  And if it is, then we have the 'Flavors of Time' problem which makes even less sense unless Mr. Sanderson wants to make the Shards universe have more than one dimension of time, which would be interesting.
Atium is a god metal, the power of the god Ruin percolated through stone and crystal in the Pits of Hathsin, if it stores time then I'm alright with that, but any other metal is just that, metal.
Time is not attached to biology, if anything, it's the other way around, but there's no evidence of it.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Also:

I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks.

Best of luck.

When I first downloaded Warbreaker I got it from Mr. Sanderson's site.  The device I use to read books isn't friendly with PDF's so I Googled the book.  Through it, I found manybooks.net and a copy of the book in a format that my reader worked very, very well with.  Unfortunately, in a zealous glee at finding one that worked so well, I missed that it was published in 2008 and is actually v4.0.
I don't know if Mr. Sanderson put it there himself or if someone did it for him but I just wanted to know if the book would be updated on manybooks.net or if I will have to go back to copying the text out of the PDF(It didn't work very well).

If anyone has useful input it would be appreciated.

That would make sense.  If Yoman knew then someone else knew and if someone else knew then there'd have been Pulsers and Sliders all over ""unofficially"".

I suppose that makes it a toss up between Cadmium/Bendalloy and Chromium/Nicrosil... I still think that my logic is sound when it comes to that though, no one outside of the Steel Ministry, or possibly just the Inquisitors, was supposed to know of Aluminium's existence.  From there it makes sense that, since none of the Enhancement metals were supposed to be known, Chromium and Nicrosil would be near the top of the 'Crap About Allomancy TLR Kept From Us' list.

Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does.  Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)
Time has no relation to age, at all.  Age is purely biological.

Quote from: Stu on June 25, 2009, 04:35:44 AM

It's been a while since I read the Mistborn trilogy, but I was just thinking about this now.  In the first book, Vin kils The Lord Ruler with help from the mists/Preservation.  Why would Preservation help her? The Lord Ruler would have taken the power from the well for himself again, so why would Preservation stop this?  I might be completely confused or mistaken, but it doesn't seem to make sense....

Preservation wasn't thinking very clearly at this point.  It had chosen Vin as the new vessel for its power, and so she had access to the mists.  I suspect that whether this access was good or bad wasn't something Preservation could really control any more.

I would say that it's less about keeping  Ruin trapped than having Ruin replaced.  When Vin kills Ati(The consciousness of Ruin) she tells him that it was Preservation's plan all along that a being of Preservation and Ruin would sacrifice itself and destroy both.  The end of the plan(I would assume) is that someone from Terris, with all of their knowledge and slow, methodical ways of thinking would be there to take up both powers.
That would also explain why Preservation specifically gave the Terris their prophecies.  Leras(Consciousness of Preservation) trusted them and their ways to eventually control both powers and save the world.

Any word on the Feruchemy or Hemalurgy posters?

Maybe a sneak peek at what the other metals do...?