Timewaster's Guide Archive

I'll bring the tranquillizers, you bring the restraints, we're going Hoid hunting!

Just out of curiosity, any of you members of the seventeenth shard?

Quote from: douglas on March 15, 2011, 12:37:57 AM

Quote from: anthonypeers on March 14, 2011, 10:39:47 PM

Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.

I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.

I'm midway through a reread of Elantris at the moment and I didn't spot anyone resembling Hoid helping Sarene (and I'm pretty unhealthily obsessed with Hoid, aheh.) Was that one of the appearances that Brandon's just given word-of-god confirmation on?

No, you haven't run into it yet.  Hoid's cameo in Elantris is just before the "Brandon avalanche".

I think you've all missed something.

Moiraine was not the first woman on his list, no matter what he said.  He *claimed* she was the first woman on his list because he was trying to deny death by insisting he was not Lews Therin.

The first woman on his list was Ilyena (spelling?), and she has a pivotal role in his epiphany.  Among other things, it allowed him to admit to himself who he really was.

So I think Moiraine was a red herring in this regard.  She's still needed, but not for the purposes speculated above.  "Coming to terms with himself" was what Rand needed to do, and this meant admitting that Moraine did not have the preeminent spot on the list.

I added a little general knowledge about some of the worlds and changed the format a little. I am not sure I like how things are starting to look though - forums seem to offer very little formatting options. Maybe I should maintain a Wiki page instead?

Maybe try the Coppermind Wiki at 17th Shard?  I'm sure they'd like the help.

Quote from: happyman on February 09, 2011, 03:36:38 PM

Logically airtight evidence?   Of course not.  You just have to find counter-evidence just as good when what evidence we do have all flows in the other direction.  That's how logic in the messy place known as the real world (and most kinds of fiction) works.

The truthspren might accept 'a truth only known to her and her brothers' to be as good as 'a truth known only to her' for the simple purpose of entering Shadesmar.  You say there isn't any evidence that they know that she killed their father, but if you look at the scenes, they're not blaming anyone else for the death either.  They might be avoiding thinking about her role in the death nearly as much as she avoids it.  Just because Balat thinks of as Shallan as "Shy, quiet, delicate" doesn't mean he doesn't know.  After all, she "took charge" (her own words) and came up with the plan to rob Jasnah and he still thinks of her that way. 

The soulcaster quotes are to point out that she and brothers didn't even know about the soulcaster until they looked in his coat and found it broken.  And that it was "they" and not just "she" that found it, her brothers were there as well when it was discovered.

Quote from: douglas on February 09, 2011, 03:49:58 PM

I'm not sure, but I think Shallan thinks about the possibility of selling her Shardblade in one of her viewpoint scenes.  As I recall, her reasoning says that Shardblades are so rare and valuable that exactly who has each one is generally public knowledge among those who care about such things, and explaining how she has one that's not accounted for would be rather difficult.  In addition to that, there's the difficulty of arranging a sale at all, and that letting anyone know that you're trying to sell a Shardblade is equivalent to telling them that you're desperate and weak - exactly what Shallan and her brothers want to hide - and some people might take that as indication that they could just take the Blade by force because you can't stop them.

I don't think we ever see her considering selling it.  I think the things you said are the reasons we've come up with that she might not be able to sell it, which I agree with, and are true whether her brothers know about the shardblade or not. 

Again, your points are not absolutely irrefutable, but extremely unlikely.  If the most powerful truths are the most hidden ones, then I'd consider it extremely likely that nobody else knows.  I see nothing compelling to contradict that, so take it as by far the most likely scenario, pending more evidence.

Maybe he'll tell her, maybe he won't.

Oh, and Kathryn's reaction to Ennesby's knowledge is just priceless.  Love this strip.

Anyway, I double-triple add what I said about hoping she catches a break.  She really has been through a lot, and Ennesby is in a position to make the most out of it.

Well played, Howard.  You're putting together a great storyline.

Maybe this was asked before, but I haven't seen it: Couldn't she sell the shardblade somehow? Sure, it would be suspicious as hell, but Sadeas for one would have payed enough to save Shallan's house more than once, and no questions asked.

Actually, this is evidence her brothers know nothing about the blade.  Shallan's relationship to the blade is obviously complex, and it makes sense for her to ignore it, despite it's value, because of the emotional baggage.  If her brothers knew, I doubt they would have decided to hide it.

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The Soulcaster looked identical to the one she and her brothers had found in the inside pocket of her father’s coat.

Quote

It had been sheared in two places: across one of the chains and through the setting that held one of the stones.

From those two quotes I think it's unreasonable for Shallan to have intentionally destroyed the soulcaster. 

I don't see evidence either way from those quotes.  But it's hardly important to my theory whether it was accidental or deliberate, because I believe the rest of the evidence stands on its own.

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You need to tell me something true, it replied. The more true, the stronger our bond.
Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I’m sure that’s a truth.
That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?
“What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”
Ah, the voice whispered. A powerful truth indeed….

There's nothing to indicate that her brothers don't know that she was the one who killed their father.  Just because the truthspren accepted it as "A powerful truth" doesn't necessarily mean it was known only to her.  Nan Balat in particular was involved in the events on the night of her father's death, but his 4 pages of the book don't tell us a whole lot.  They might even know she has the shardblade, and thought it would be safest if it was left with her. (If it's unsellable, it shouldn't really matter who's carrying it.)

Actually, I'm glad you included that quote, because the part that is most relevant is the Truthspren's statement

The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond.

(emphasis added)

There is very little evidence is this regard, but evidence we do have suggests that her brothers know nothing of the blade, or what happened with her father.  Given this quote, especially the parts in bold, the fact that the spren considers the truth a powerful truth strongly suggests that she has never told anybody and that nobody knows.  Or at least, that she thinks nobody knows.  Given her brother's POV, as well as their reaction to her plan, I seriously doubt they know anything important about what happened that night, or at least what's important to Shallan.

Logically airtight evidence?   Of course not.  You just have to find counter-evidence just as good when what evidence we do have all flows in the other direction.  That's how logic in the messy place known as the real world (and most kinds of fiction) works.