Timewaster's Guide Archive

Whoops, my bad.  I did mean dinosaurs.  D'OH!

Of course, we all know the real reason you said dragons. It was all a test to set the real fans apart from the wannabes!

Like I said in the PM I sent you, I certainly understand that and I'd love to continue this discussion via PM. However, I also intend to continue a respectful discussion in this thread, though perhaps not with you in particular.

hah, well jordan was in his prime in the 60's... 

I thought the 70's were the era of drugs

I have a t-shirt with two dragons on it where one is saying "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

lol, i WANT one of those!

although are you sure you don't mean dinosaurs?

I hated Weber's On Basilisk Station but I like the 1633/1634 collaborations he's done with Eric Flint. I've been told Weber gets better after Basilisk but haven't tried any.

Oh much better. Actually I had the exact same reaction to ON BASILISK STATION; it was a Christmas present and I read it, but didn't continue on with the series until about a year later, when two other members of my family told me how great it was.

Quote from: Reaves on June 02, 2009, 03:07:42 AM

Do you believe that God always had a physical body?

Well, this is getting into stuff that I'm not sure I have a full grasp on yet, but I will give it my best shot! We believe that God's time, along with the universe, is one eternal round and has no beginning or end. He is perfect so he bound to follow natural laws including the concept of mater: it is neither created or destroyed only changed and directed. He organized existing intelligence into spirits (us) and we can assume that his assent to Godhood was at least somewhat similar. What I can tell you for sure is that right now he has a body similar to our own but perfected as our bodies were created in his image.   

I believe that only God is timeless. He created matter, space, and time at the same instant. He created the "natural" laws that govern everything in the universe.

Quote from: Reaves on June 02, 2009, 03:07:42 AM

I believe that in one sense Adam's sin was a perversion of God's plan, a blight upon the creation He deemed "very good". However, in another sense it was part of His plan all along, so that He could glorify Himself through sending His son to the cross.

So if Adam didn't sin, what would be the state of our existence? Would we exist at all? What is your concept of the devil and his role in the Fall?
And if you believe that God and Jesus are the same person, why is he called the son? I guess I just have a hard time understanding the concept of the Trinity in regards to Jesus' earthly ministry. Like who was he praying to if he is God himself?

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would be sinless beings, with the same moral capacity to make choices. However, I see this as being a moot point; if Adam and Eve had not sinned, someone else would have I'd like to think if I had been in Adam's place I would have made the right choice, but who knows.
I believe that the devil, the angel called Lucifer, was the first to rebel against God and the first to sin. Consequently, he was the one who first introduced sin into the world that God pronounced "very good" and he was the one who tempted Eve. However, he did not make or force her or Adam to sin; that was their choice.
I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus are the same person. I believe they are different persons, yet are both codeity together with the Holy Spirit. All have existed eternally, yet differ in roles and authority.

I think I saw a picture on your site of someone being baptized by immersion and I thought it was cool because it seemed similar to how we do it. Is this something you all do? What is the usual age?

Yep, in just the last year or two we installed a baptism pool in our facility. Basically we believe that baptism is a symbol of an inward work in the heart. 1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
(ESV) Its a symbol of new life in us that was commanded by Jesus.
For people growing up in the church the general age is about 15-19 I suppose. They need to be able to give a clear testimony of their salvation and show through their lives that they have new spiritual life inside them. For new believers its generally six months - a year after they have been saved, I guess. I personally have not yet been baptized but I plan to do it in my senior year of high school.

Thanks again, but one thing we might consider is continuing this discussion into PMs unless someone else wants to contribute. I mean, it doesn't matter to me and I would enjoy it if someone else did want to chime in, but I would feel bad about keeping the discussion open here if it's only the two of us that are interested.

I was thinking similarly but it looks like Ookla has joined the conversation so we can keep it here Thanks for your thoughts!

Reaves, regarding your c.) at the end there, that makes me wonder what your definition of salvation is and how it relates to the reward you get in heaven that is dependent on our acts in life.

I believe in the hell that Jesus promised to save us from if we would accept him into our lives. So in essence I see salvation as being moved from the kingdom of sin, where the punishment for sin is death, into the kingdom of heaven where Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

Quote

However, the free gift of eternal life is not earned but given to anyone who believes and trusts in Jesus.

This sounds like a contradiction to me. If you say you have to believe and trust in Jesus in order to get eternal life, aren't you saying that is the way to earn it?

I suppose you could see it that way. If someone offers me a cool glass of water in a parched desert for free, and I believe him when he says its not poison, that could be considered a "work". But I believe that it was not us who first reached out to God asking for His help, but that we were in open rebellion against Him and He reached out to us, putting the glass of life-giving water in our hands. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (For the future, all biblical references I'll be giving will be taken from the ESV Bible)

As for God having a physical body—are you saying something's impossible for God? We don't know how many universes God may have created, or whether any laws of physics existed in some form before he created the universe we live in, but we do know he created man in his own image.

I believe that God's power is unlimited, but qualified by His other attributes. For example, it is impossible for God to lie because to do so would be to deny the very attributes that define Him as God. Neither can He deny His justice, because to do so would be to deny essential aspects of His character.

[ADDED:]
The insistence that works don't matter is a bit misplaced in modern Christianity. Historically there were two important periods to deemphasize works: back in the New Testament when some people were saying you still had to follow the law of Moses and all of the Pharisaical nitpickiness, and during the reformation when they were reacting against the Catholic church and the forgiveness of sins by saying a certain number of Hail Marys and Our Fathers and whatnot. Like the book of James says, some works have always been a required part of Christianity. Even the conscious choice of believing Jesus is the Christ is a work.

James 2:18  "But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
I think what James is saying is that it is very easy for someone to go to church and nod their head, saying Jesus is Lord. Its harder for that person to repent and break patterns of sin in their life, yet that is what God commands. James goes on to say in verse 21:  "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. "
It would have been impossible for Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice to God if he had not had faith. It does say Abraham was justified by works...because of his faith, the faith that God put there. As always, God is the primary cause and we are the secondary.

Like I said before, anyone feel free to jump in! You don't need to be Mormon or Christian to participate in these discussions. Just share what you believe about God and who Jesus is.

Thanks for the quick response! I'm really enjoying the discussion.

Yes. We lived in heaven as spirit children of god. What I mean by that is that God has a perfected physical body but when we were first created, we were only spirits but we still were his literal children. In order to become like him, we had to receive physical bodies and learn to use them properly like he did, which is what this earth life is for. At the second coming, we’ll regain our bodies in a perfected form and those that have lived righteously will continue to progress.

 The Earth was created for that purpose and we do not believe in reincarnation, but I believe there is some doctrine of the Earth being perfected as a home for many  of us after the second coming but I would have to look it up to give you anything more specific than that.

Thanks, yeah this answers my question, but also raises another one. Do you believe that God always had a physical body? That would seem impossible given that He existed before creating the physical universe.
I personally have never really thought deeply about this particular issue, whether the Father has a physical body. There are many references throughout the Bible to a "throne" and Jesus Christ sitting at His "right hand" but those could simply be metaphors or symbolism.

Quote from: Reaves on June 02, 2009, 12:06:04 AM

I believe in the Trinity -- God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one nature, and that the Son is two natures in one person. I believe in God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. I believe that God created human beings sinless, but that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we are now corrupted by sin.
 

So are you saying that you believe that we are all individually accountable for the sins of Adam?

Our take on that is a little different. We believe that the fall of Adam was an important step in the creation. Not so much that he sinned by leaving the garden, but rather that it showed his choice to leave God's presence and progress as God had intended. In the garden they were childlike and innocent, they couldn't progress because they had never been tempted or had trials that a mortal existence would expose them to. So when they left the Garden, they could be tempted, have trials and sin but they also could learn things they could never learn if they were continually in God's presence and have mortal children. Every person is born innocent and is accountable for their own sins before God.

Basically I am saying that because we are all descendants of Adam, we are all sinful; its in our blood. However, we are judged by God for our own sins. Because we are all children of Adam, we are going to sin. But, if we are born again through belief in and surrender to Jesus Christ, we can overcome the power of sin in our lives. (Though we can never become perfect and without sin in this life.)

I believe that in one sense Adam's sin was a perversion of God's plan, a blight upon the creation He deemed "very good". However, in another sense it was part of His plan all along, so that He could glorify Himself through sending His son to the cross.

Quote from: Reaves on June 02, 2009, 12:06:04 AM

God's justice demands that sin be paid for. He did not have to save anyone but because of His love he chose to save anyone who would believe and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ. He was fully man so that He could fully represent us before God, and fully God so that He could act as God's representative to us.

I believe in justification by faith and not by works. I guess you could say if our sin is a giant pit standing between us and God, the Cross is more of a bridge than a landfill. We can't do anything to fill the pit; any good works we try to fill the pit with is ultimately not enough to save us.

I believe that sanctification is a direct outgrowth of justification. God calls on us to become more and more Christlike, not to earn our salvation but because its closer to how things ought to be.

So if saving comes by faith, than does that mean that you believe every person will be rewarded equally after this life regardless on how they lived it? Or does God only chose certain people to save? If so, how is this decided? How do you show your belief if not by works?

God rewards each believer differently based on their works in life. However, the free gift of eternal life is not earned but given to anyone who believes and trusts in Jesus.
However, you are quite right: faith without works is dead. But its the faith that comes first. You can't do your job or work in the soup kitchen for God's glory, for example, until you have a personal relationship with him.
I believe that God directs some people to be saved through the process of election. In case you're unfamiliar with this term (I don't know how Mormon theology is taught ) I'll give you Wayne Grudem's definition from his book SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. "Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure."
As a result of election, these people through free will come to trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

We believe in the balance of works and faith. You need both. As your analogy shows, we agree that ultimately we cannot save ourselves and Jesus' atonement allows him to bridge that gap if we repent and are baptized in his name, but it is by our works and commitment to give our very best effort in following the commandments that we qualify ourselves for his saving grace.

I would say that without any sign of change or growth towards Christ's likeness in a person's life, it would be very difficult to say that they have been saved. Of course, only that person and God know the true answer to that question.

I don't think we can ever do anything to qualify ourselves for grace. It's all undeserved. God doesn't choose to save anyone because He foreknew that they would be a good person in life.
Personally I find this doctrine and some of its implications very hard to swallow. At the same time though, it's incredibly comforting to know that I don't need to worry about messing up; Christ has already purchased me from sin into eternal life.
As a side note, however, I am emphatically not saying that because Christians have trusted in Jesus, they don't have to worry about how they live their lives. There are so many reasons to live a godly life as a Christian. To name a few:
a.) Well, obviously God commands us to follow His commands and become more like Christ.
b.) We want to be a "vessel for noble use", not dis-noble use.
c.) The Bible clearly states that our rewards in heaven are dependent upon our acts in life.
d.) This one really hit it home for me. Each sin I commit now is a sin that Jesus had to pay for on the cross with His life's blood. In a sense, it has already happened, but I still have to make the decision then and there.

Anyway, like I said at the beginning I have really been enjoying this discussion. Anyone else, feel free to jump in!

I'm not at all offended by your questions. Its not often I get to have a deep theologically grounded talk with someone of another faith. Thanks for sharing your honest beliefs with me!