Timewaster's Guide Archive

ITYM: The problem with our society is that it dislikes the unconventional.

That said, my general view on religion is that it is mainly a tool to keep the masses in line by promising them afterlife goodies for staying in line. I don't discuss my views much because the discussions that ensue tend to start multi-generational feuds.

If I include enough emoticons, this post is sure to be an exception to the rule.

We seem to be in agreement on a great many things. 

Uh... I have a husband... but I think I want a wife too.  Only one though, the bed would get crowded after that.   

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We are born with sexual orientations and if they don't fall into the mainstream then they are "evil" and must be "cured". 

The problem isn't that they are evil or deviant. There is nothing evil in being gay. But homosexual acts do a grave harm to those who engage in them, and since humans are creatures of immense dignity and worth, made in the image of the Almighty, yes, one could call it evil.

 

YOU could call it evil. I was born bisexual, therefore, I have engaged in homosexual acts, and never was grave harm done to me.  Instead of cheapening my dignity, it strengthened my identity and made me more comfortable with my body, my beauty, and expanded my understanding of human intimacy.  If someone thinks it is evil it is becuase they have been told by a religion that it is... which is fine, if that's what they want to think... I just disagree. 

Sex is for two purposes: procreation and union (of husband and wife). Glance in the Catechism (which is available online) and you will see that the Catholic Church (the church to which I belong) teaches this; but it is also abundantly clear in a full reading of the Theology of the Body. The belief that sex must always be in-principle procreative is not demonstrable outside of Scripture or revealed truth, but that's not to say that there are not powerful -- particularly aesthetic -- arguments for it; or, e.g., teleological arguments for it. Sex lacking either the unitive or procreative aspect is disordered (and incidentally, someone who definitively can't have sex can't get married in the Church).  St Aquinas insists on the unicity of the human person, meaning that the human being is body and soul (the Church believes this now, though there was debate in the past); the bodies of man and woman are in principle procreative respecting heterosexual intercourse: they are designed so to effect the co-creation of new life with God.  Therefore even marriages in which there is irremediable infertility are in principle -- by the nature or, as it were, definition of the participants -- procreative.

This is completely a subjective opinion shared with your church.  I don't believe that sex is for the sole purpose of procreation or the union of man and wife.  I think this is biologically evidenced by the fact that a woman's pleasure center is not inside her body and can rarely be reached through intercourse.  That isn't to say that I don't agree that union isn't a majority of the purpose but it goes OH so much deeper than that... I wish you could know...    but, I think we'll move on...

You are blaming sexual dysfunction on abstinence before marriage? It seems to me that fornication has a great deal more to answer for  (e.g. teen pregnancy, sexually-transmitted diseases, a strong shared emotional experience with someone who plans to desert you) than abstinence ever could. Unless, of course, you are speaking to someone whose all-important desires have been temporarily frustrated.

Sexuality is something that if explored safely, while being completely honest with ones self and ones partner, can be spiritual beyond belief.  If honesty and realistic expectation is part of your sexual relationship, then there is no reason to feel deserted if things end.  The oppression of sexual exploration of yourself and others isn't healthy physically or psychologically.  Fornication, (as I PRAY you know) is such a minuscule part of ones sexual experience.

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Some religions hang your salvation and worthiness to receive certain blessings on how much money you give them  (this is not exclusive of the LDS church). 

There may be churches that do this, but I don't think mine is one, and I don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is either. There are good people in all churches and good leaders in many. For someone to reduce very real and honest religious convictions to nothing more than avarice and, perhaps, a desire for control, seems to me to say more about the accuser than the accused.

I don't know if your church is one... although it has been in the past.  The LDS church is one of these.  If you do not give 10% of your earnings to them, they will not allow you into their highest realm of heaven, let you in to their temples, nor can you partake of their eternal blessings.  I'm not saying that they don't have the right to do this... I'm just saying I don't agree with it.  I'm not quite sure what that says about me, exactly... 

Most churches do not allow women to have any "Priesthood" powers and seek to take away the rights of women over their own bodies and choices.   And SOME even pacify the women by telling her the fact that she can bear children and nurture a home make her holier and more spiritual then men so she doesn't need any of that "troublesome responsibility"... and the women just accept that. 

This, right, here, is the single most inflammatory thing you've said, and it more than anything else suggests to me that you are looking for an argument  rather than answers to your questions. I assume bodies and choice's is a coy reference to abortion. I will not argue that subject here (goodness knows we already have enough to argue about) so let me restrict myself to this: by denying those you disagree with the possibility, in your mind, of valid reasoning for their views, you have killed any chance at meaningful conversation before you even started posting.  If any woman feels they're being controlled by being taught to value life, they are probably not going to be happy with the rest of their Christian walk either. If any woman feels imprisoned by her role as mother and life-giver, then something is terribly wrong. There is no prison. There is no lack of responsibility. The responsibilities of the woman are just as substantial as those of the man, if not more so, and in many places they overlap. Both, for instance, have the same responsibilities to those around them, to set a godly example. Both have the responsibility to care for their family. Both have the responsibility, in short, to live for the Lord, even if the specifics of what that means change a little. Man and woman are equal in value, but not identical in function or purpose. Two things need not be identical to both be of worth. Both are made in the image of God and both are absolutely and categorically equal in human dignity.

I'm glad that you see things this way regarding the roles of man and woman... I can't say that I disagree with you on many points.  I in no way mean to be inflammatory and if you chose to be inflamed by my honest opinions, I can't stop you.   I'm merely using reason and logic and asking honest questions to which I've only received Dogmatic answers.  I believe in early abortions to be available for women who have been the victims of incest, rape, and other unforeseeable situations, but my post was by no means a coy reference to abortion.  Yet, I could see how you would think that.  I was more referring to the physical and sexual double standards that apply in this world when it comes to women and how certain expectations of a "woman's role" are set by this particular patriarchal society.  I'm not sure about the whole "image of God" idea... again that is an opinion of yours and your religion.  But I agree that we are equal in human dignity... I like that you use this word.  There are many women who feel imprisoned by her role as mother and life-giver because that is not what she wanted her role to be...  A mother is a sacred thing, but women need options that are sanctified by society... that is all. 

The futility comes in to such conversations becuase most all these subjects are, well, subjective... Its all a matter of opinion.  There is no way to KNOW that this is what your God wants other than to believe texts which were written by men and voted on by pagans and jews nearly 2000 years ago to try and obliterate civil and religious unrest.  You base your lives on this religion, and that's fine... I chose to base my life on rationality.  Which is also fine.  The only way any of us are vindicated is when we die and find out for ourselves.  If your Jesus is standing there on the other side of death, I'll kneel at his feet.  If it is someone else, I kneel at theirs.  I just don't know.

pulchritudinous       (one of my many favs)

WELCOME!

I've gone through quite a few periods in my life when I've honestly wondered, "What if it's all a lie?  What if there is no afterlife, or my church has it all wrong?" Being of a logical and scientific turn of mind, I then said, "OK, take the hypothesis that there is no afterlife, what would you do differently her and now?"  I asked myself if I'd wear different clothes, date different people. Would I eat differently? Smoke cigarettes? Get drunk every evening like my next door neighbors do? Steal? Have sex outside of marriage?

I looked at even the most glamorous representations of many of these behaviors, and found that they didn't look like they led to happiness. The drunken parties my neighbors throw every night don't even look like they're fun before they often turn into screaming matches, and most of the people who hang out there don't seem to have stable jobs, homes, families, or even relationships.

As for happiness versus cheap thrills, think of a drug addict.  He gets cheap thrills, but very little real happiness as he destroys his relationships, his health, his career, and ultimately his whole life in search of more drugs.  If your faith in God leads you to a religion that teaches you not to waste your time, money, etc on addictive substances, then following that religion will keep you from doing things that will certainly make you unhappy, and encourage you to do things that will make you happy, even if they're not all as obvious as not doing drugs.

I find these misconceptions common among Mormons...  There are people in my neighborhood who will not let their children into my home because I have alcohol and coffee there.  Mormons tend to think that if you drink at all, you are a party animal.  What they don't realize (especially if they've never lived out of Utah) is that MOST people in this world drink a glass or two of wine/ale/microbrew/or other alcohol with their evening meal and/or relaxing after work or before bed on occasion.  Your view of drinkers is the "girls gone wild" type, and in this sociological climate, you sort of do get one or the other in Happy Valley.  But if you stepped into the real world for a moment you would see that moderation reigns.   It has been proven a glass of wine  a day will help you to fight off obesity, live longer, and promotes overall well being.  (Read; "Why French Women Don't Get Fat." By Mireille Guiliano)  This is the type of drinker that I am and my family is.  We are amateur Somolier's and study the science behind wine and the pairings with food and they way that a fine wine will enhance the flavors of your meal.  This is a growing trend in the US and has been long standing tradition in Europe.
Also, Since beginning a regimen of regular morning coffee along with green tea and other herbs and a healthy diet.  I have cured the ulcers that I have been plagued with since childhood and dropped 60 pounds and maintained that healthy weight for 2 years.   The roasted coffee bean is quite medicinal and will help you to stave off diabetes, stroke, kidney/liver damage, and recently found to help Parkinson's disease.  (plus it tastes like heaven in a CUP!)   I understand how Alcohol can be destructive force in many people's lives, but I find that anything in excess (including food as I watch my corpulent Mormon neighbors trundle to work) can be destructive. 

My husband and I have very stable jobs where we thrive, (as do most people who moderately drink in the world) and the best marriage.  We are soul mates and not once in our 7 year relationship we have never screamed, name called, an rarely even fought.  We do everything together and even our Mormon friends can attest to the fact that we are some of the happiest people they know.  (Ask Erik Holmes)  Our three children are straight A students and are growing up with an understanding of safe sex, moderation in all things, and a realistic education about the world around us.  We are the rule, not the exception.  People who have drunken parties every night are usually the lowest common denominator and are not a realistic way to gauge how the rest of us live.  Being compared to a drug addict or compulsive partier is somewhat offensive, but something that I run into a lot because of people's ignorance.

I'm glad that the church has been a safety net for you when you would have otherwise been alone.  That is wonderful.  I find that many many people are religious for the social aspect.  That is a valid reason for needing such.  Your thoughts on a loving God who doesn't not create sinners and then punish them are beautiful... but your lovely personal sentiment is not backed up by christian doctrine, the bible, or even the book of Mormon.  According to doctrine you are sent here to sin and be forgiven of your sins and the only way to do that is to follow specific commandments, many of which make NO sense. 
i.e. We are born with sexual orientations and if they don't fall into the mainstream then they are "evil" and must be "cured".  We are born with healthy sex drives that can only be explored within the bonds of marriage and as a result much sexual dysfunction is created and nurtured.  Some religions hang your salvation and worthiness to receive certain blessings on how much money you give them  (this is not exclusive of the LDS church).  Most churches do not allow women to have any "Priesthood" powers and seek to take away the rights of women over their own bodies and choices.   And SOME even pacify the women by telling her the fact that she can bear children and nurture a home make her holier and more spiritual then men so she doesn't need any of that "troublesome responsibility"... and the women just accept that. 
Lists and lists and lists of things that make no sense but cannot be argued in a religion forum because reason and logic are not used as an argument but "revelations", "feelings", and biased sentiment born of the traditions and Dogma of the last 2000 years.  You could pick any one of these and a myriad of other issues and we could debate them all for hours and hours both sides finding studdies and instances to back up our claims.  I think that since most of us are steadfast in our convictions at this point, our opinions would not be changed.  I respect that, absolutely, and as fun as I find lively religious debates, I'm starting to think that this one might prove futile because of the dominance of a specific ideal.

Much love, though. 

well my understanding of life after death is that of ignorance... i was raised as a Southern Baptist and became a christian with out a denomination (non-denominational is a denomination) and eventually lost all faith i had... i believe we are all ignorant of the after life and i dislike the very concept of faith because it is the choice to believe regardless of ignorance i don't know for certain if re-incarnation exist though i find that more appealing than an after-life which to me sounds like stagnation... but the fact remains we are all of us uncertain

I have to agree with Kaz here... Faith, by definition is belief or hope without knowledge... I think certain people with faith need it to give their lives meaning and purpose.  It's a scary thing to wonder, "Who am I?  What is my purpose?  Do I matter in this universe?" etc.  Religion and faith gives  specific answers to said questions and that promotes a feeling of being loved, forgiven, and sense of purpose.   

I have read the book of Mormon, living in Utah, you can't really escape it.  As a history major, I immediately had chronological and logistical issues with the book.  Regardless, I glazed such issues over with the idea that perhaps science, history, and such things were mistaken and I needed to pray with sincere intent and see if I could communicate with the divine.  After receiving no such communication or "confirmation" (I am aware of what they are supposed to be because of the missionaries)  I was informed that I must have "done it wrong" or "not been open" to said communication.  I am to take it that if I didn't get the answer that they told me to get, or it wasn't revelated to me that what I read was truth, then I wasn't asking in the correct manner and/or open to the correct answer which is the answer they gave me that I'm supposed to have. 

Honestly, placing aside the issues I have with the entire Joseph Smith deal, Brigham Young, Church doctrine regarding women (which isn't LDS specific), "priesthood", Word of Wisdom, worthiness, temple ceremony, bishop confessionals/interviews, tithing practice, political maneuverings i.e. paid lobbyists and special interest groups, historical inconsistencies, etc...  I have a fundamental problem with the idea that a loving God would create sinners and then punish them.  It makes no sense to me.  The entire idea of Jesus Christ, one person atoning for our sins, also has no basis in rationality for me.  Thus, that is where faith takes part in your lives.  In order to wrap yourselves in this religion so completely and utterly that every decision you make; from the people you chose to love and partner with, to the food and beverages you consume, to the clothing you wear, to when you shop, to how you spend your money, is based around the commandments and "revelations" of a prophet that tells you that he speaks to God for you. You HAVE to receive some kind of "revelation" i.e. a good, peaceful feeling, a small voice in your consiousness, or a confident burning in your heart that everything that comes out of his mouth is true... otherwise, the entire basis for your ethics and value system would break down and it would be a colossal waste of time and huge pain in the ass. But, since you're willing to bet that you're building your mansions in the highest realm of heaven... it is worth the effort to you. 

I am not in any way saying that you are WRONG in doing so... don't missunderstand me.   
I'm just saying that I don't KNOW... therefore, I can't reconcile in my mind living my life in such a way.  Instead, I search for universal truths and follow those truths to the best of my ability always striving to better myself and the lives of the people I come into contact with.  I, essentially, live a faithless life.  I don't portend to have revelation for anyone and I do my best to build a relationship with the divine without presuming that it is a glorified version of myself.  I believe in doing good for the sake of doing good, not to receive blessings or to please a higher power.  I believe that love is the highest and truest law and is taught in nearly every religion throughout the world because inside we have a connection to each other that tells us that this is so.  I am a creationist because it doesn't make sense to me that matter is formed from nothing.  I believe there is a loving, caring creator/father/mother of our souls/spirit/energy/essence and that we will most likely have to answer for our actions here.  My belief, however is not faith, it is not knowledge, it is a most powerful HOPE.  And coming to have that hope has made me the happiest person I can possibly be.  I have had tragedy and trial to maintain balance and nurture growth and compassion,   but most of my days are filled with unadulterated bliss.  None of my pleasures are fleeting, none of my gratification is instant and/or short lived, instead, I live with a constant feeling of well being and wholeness nurtured by my loved ones.   
So, in essence that is my religion.  It's kinda hard to give it a name... lol.