Timewaster's Guide Archive

A quote from his blog: "None of you ran out to get the book because of me." WRONG!  I had almost given up hope reading WoT books after the last several that were so mediocre. I told myself after the last one "I will NOT buy another one of these books until reviews are written that say it's worth buying." 

I thought Gathering Storm was excellent. I haven't read the first few WoT books in a while, but from my hazy memory of them I would say this is up there with the best in the series, which is around #3-6 if I remember correctly.  Maybe this book would have been just as good if Jordan wrote it himself, but I have a strong suspicion it wouldn't have been based on the declining quality of the series.

I don't mean to disrespect Jordan, because it was pretty awesome of him to leave a ton of notes so that the series could be finished, but I think maybe part of him was happy to hand it off to someone who still had passion for these characters, and the skill to pull it off.  Or maybe he was totally clueless about what his fans thought, I don't know.

What I DO  know is that Brandon is trying to stay humble and give credit to Jordan, but I can't help but feeling I wouldn't think so  highly of this book if it had been solely Jordan's work. I suspect there would have been 1/2 the story progression, quite a bit more hair-pulling, gossiping, and random nonsense rather than the massive plot advancement we got. And so I want to say thank you to Mr. Sanderson, because no matter what he will say publicly, the success of this book is in large part to his ability and hard work as a writer.

When Zane was introduced to complete the "romantic triangle" and give Elend some competition, I was like oh brother. I don't know if that was Brandon's intention or not to try to bring out the romantic subplot, but it didn't work for me.

Yeah. It kinda threw me for a loop when Zane expected Vin to go away with him, and Vin actually considered it. They never even spoke to each other beyond "why do you serve them?" and "you're not like them, you're different."  Was that supposed to be Zane courting Vin? Because they never really said anything beyond that and yet Vin was still thinking "hmm, I don't know this guy, but he fights well, so maybe I should leave my fiance for him."     I was glad when Vin got over this period of indecision and started acting more rationally.

I think Vin and Elend's whole relationship was left a little undeveloped.  Yes, there was an ongoing crises, but whenever they were together, it was rare that they showed any type of affection.  I think that ties really closely with the lack of sexuality, because I associate sexuality and romance (some of it anyway) with touching. No massaging away the tension, no light kisses when they were together, just discussing their problems and the business that needed to be done.  An example: The very first chapter in HoA where Vin and Elend are alone together, Elend wakes up from a nap to find Vin already washed and dressed.  Elend thinks that Vin is pushing herself too hard and is concerned about her (which shows he cares about her, but it could be in the same way you care about a friend or relative).  Then they discuss a problem and depart. 

If you wanted to add a little romance to the scene, which would have shown that they had a deeper affection for each other, you could have had Elend wake up while Vin is still dressing, and he appreciates how all the running around and fighting has strengthened her body and made her lean and toned.  Then you could have Vin see Elend wake up and she smiles and walks over to ask how he feels now that he's getting used to being a Mistborn while she massages his neck.  Maybe a little joke that she's sad that she can't take care of him anymore now that he's all big and powerful.  She notices the tension in his neck and worries about him but thinks he's become a much stronger person in the last 2 years....etc... you can see how easy it is to work into the narrative while still adding important bits of information about the characters' state of mind, what they think about their new abilities, etc...

Quote from: Cynewulf on January 28, 2009, 10:49:35 PM

Still, it is good to see that themes such as these are more prevalent in other works by Mr. Sanderson. I feared for some time that this sanitation was somehow related to his personal beliefs, to some idea that it was sinful (what do I know?) to put such things on paper for others to read. I hope he knows that internal observations about various people's calves, bosoms and shoulders is an important part of Robert Jordan's narrative style.

oh they most definitely are.  Brandon's big thing is that he want everything to be helping the plot and story along. In Mistborn, I just dont think it would have added much. It doesnt have to do with his personal religion, its more of a "does this actually fit here?" kind of thing.  Just remember, more sexuality (in any form) doesn't make a story better or more realistic just because it is there. I still maintain there needs to be a plot-centric point to it all.

Cyne's views mirror my own and he/she writes better than me, so I'll just let him/her take care of any follow up stuff   One thing I didn't know upon coming here was just how many people here are Mormons.  That's an important point because it's such a tiny fraction of the general population, yet makes up a huge portion of this board apparently.  When we discuss something like "what is normal for a male viewpoint," the responses will be waaaay skewed towards the most conservative viewpoint.  That certainly heavily influenced the responses here towards a more conservative view of what is acceptable and whether any sexuality was missing in Mistborn.  It's almost like if you went on Al Jazeera television and took a poll asking what everyone thinks about Americans...nowhere near representative of the world as a whole (or Brandon's readership I would think). 

Brandon said one of his worst flaws as a writer is getting stuck in a character's head and writing a lot of internal dialogue.  I think all I would ask him to take into consideration in future novels is that the internal dialogue of your average non-Mormon male has a lot more body-part watching/considering/judging/ogling/whatever than what his male characters displayed in Mistborn.  At least get it up to a Robert Jordan level as some of you said.

 I don't want to come off as insulting or derogatory but the simplest way I can say this is:  If you're Mormon, you at least should recognize that some of your views of male/female relationships would not be considered 'normal' by the majority of the U.S. population (especially anyone 16-40 yrs old).  Someone even mentioned that all the guys she knows don't have pre-marital sex...that's not normal for 21yr old males in 99% of U.S. universities.  I'm not judging whether it's right/wrong, smart/dumb, or whatever.  Just recognize that it's not normal and that if you're trying to write good, realistic characters, you have to recognize how your own view of the world is skewed and how a realistic character would act according to the other 99% of the population.

Some of you mentioned that Warbreaker has more sexuality in it.  I'll have to check it out once I finish the Mistborn trilogy.  Thanks again for all the responses, pizza or not.

Just because you and your brothers may automatically have sexual thoughts about girls you're attracted to doesn't make it the same for every guy. I'm not a guy, and I don't talk about this stuff with my friends who ARE guys, but I know them well enough that they DON'T have sexual thoughts about girls they're attracted to. Well, they may have a couple but it's FAR from all the time, or even every time they see the girl.

Not to belabor the point, but I agree with you that it's not the same for every guy.  As a male, who definitely discusses this with his male friends/relatives, it only applies to the vast majority of us and anyone I've ever spoken to about it in person.  Just for future reference, you refuted what I said by saying "Well first of all, I'm not a guy and I don't really talk to other guys about it, so I really don't know what I'm talking about, BUT here's what I think anyway."  This is not the best way to begin an argument.

"Hey guys, I'm not a doctor, and I never talk to other doctors, but I think we should amputate." 

Just to throw down the gauntlet and let anyone who's interested in facts and scientific studies instead of all these random strange opinions, etc...
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html
That site is basically the bible of sexual research. An excerpt:

"54% of men think about sex everyday or several times a day, 43% a few times per month or a few times per week, and 4% less than once a month"

And that's just sex. I couldn't even find a study there that asked how often men look at attractive women's bodyparts. It must be such an incredibly high number that it's off the charts.

Getting back closer to the topic:  Yes I can see that people are picking out the handful of times that Vin and Elend show affection towards each other, like the honeymoon...2 years after they met.  I would hope these scenes exist somewhere within the 2,000+ pages of text (paperback) otherwise there would be little evidence of any type of physical attraction/relationship.  It's the fact that everyone looks to the same handful of scenes that demonstrates the point that there wasn't much there.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you noticed the lack of sexuality in the series and whether you thought it could use a bit more to add to the depth of the characters.  Even outside of Vin and Elend, the other characters you mentioned never talked about the opposite sex or 'had thoughts' beyond "He/She is beautiful, has shiny hair, is smart, I love him/her."  It's definitely a very high-minded view of attraction and love, so if that's what Sanderson was trying to accomplish on purpose, I'll give him that.   It just wasn't the most realistic or interesting angle he could have chosen.  A very minor complaint.

Vin was a sixteen year old when the first book starts...

That's the age of consent in a majority of states, and many countries...but she's also 18 in Well of Ascension.   But regardless of her age, all the other characters are older than her.

I just finished the first two Mistborn books and really liked them.  I especially enjoyed the first one's incredible fast pace and Kelsier as a central male character.  But back to the topic:  Did anyone else notice a lack of sexuality in the books?  There is a mention of prostitute here, rape there, but the actual main characters themselves never discuss sex or mention women/men sexually.  It's all *blush* *giggle* stuff, and for a 22yr old male, Elend has a remarkable ability to keep his eyes always on Vin's face, with nary a hint of sexual desire, appreciation of her athletic body, etc...  the same goes for the other men in the crew.  Everyone is a white shining knight who would never dare sneak a peak at a low cut dress, or admire the shape of a well formed behind.

 I think I only notice this because of its conspicuous absence, because I've never noticed a lack of sexual energy in a book before, and I've read more than a few.  It's almost as if being a 'good man' is associated with chastity and chaste thoughts as well.  Anyone who openly has sex is a deviant ala Straff Venture. 

I went through a few hundred pages of the second book wondering if Vin and Elend were just friends or lovers.  And it didn't appear they did more than kiss until they were married...two years after they met.  Really? In a medieval society with no religious teachings/guilt holding them back?

I did a quick search for 'sex' before posting this to see if it's been discussed before, and ended up coming across some postings of Brandon Sanderson's talking about his Mormon faith and related issues.  I'm actually pretty impressed that he is able to believe in that faith and write Sazed's character so well, acknowledging the existence of many faiths all proclaiming to be correct and others to be wrong, and the birth and death of those religions as time passes.   Anyway, that got me to thinking that perhaps his religious views have influenced this area of his writing.  Any thoughts? If he can write about religion well without the need to show his characters as deeply devout, then I think he can step outside of the box when it comes to separating Mormon views on sex with how a character in a medieval'ish world without any organized religion would behave.  What do you all think?

I haven't read any WoT books for a while, so my memory on them is rather foggy.  I cannot make any detailed arguments except from my vague memory of the entire series. Books 1-2 were good, 3-7 considerably better, and then somewhere around 8,9,10, I don't remember which, they started to get soooo slooooow and incredibly boring.  If you want a more detailed explanation, I'd check out the amazon.com reviews and you can see how many people think the same thing. Basically every book gets 4 star averages, and then around 8 they drop to 3 star (and 10 has 1.5 star which is incredibly low for amazon).  I would say the reviews are almost exactly in line with my thoughts as well.  Number 11 has a 3 star average as well. 

I do not mean to disrespect Jordan, only his more recent work.  I liked the series overall and just wish that it had come to a conclusion around 9-10 by just cutting some threads and picking up the pace.  That's why I think Sanderson can do this.  It's not that I think Sanderson has more experience than Jordan in writing hugely detailed worlds, it's that he's capable of paring his novels down in order to move the story forward.  Again, I can't really make a more detailed argument of what Jordan did in his last few books that slowed them down so much, but it was there, and the majority of those who read the series noticed it as a serious problem.  Hopefully it's corrected by Sanderson, and we can all get some closure to the series and return it to its former glory.