Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: ulysses sword on May 17, 2011, 12:28:01 AM
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Finished a reread of Way of Kings, and looking at the forum/appendices gave me an idea as to the direction of the series. I think that the Heralds of the Almighty will be reformed by the last book. Here are my predictions (in order) for who they will be: Kaladin, Jasnah, Talenel (herald from the epilogue), unnamed art destroyer, Elhokar, Shallan, Dalinar, Navani, Szeth, Rysn (trader that visited Shinovar). As you can see, it alternated between men and women, with five of each. I tried to match the characters as closely as possible to the table of Ten Essences, but had to stretch plausibility a little to make it work. Here are my reasons for my choices, and how strongly I believe I can support them:
1. Kaladin (Sapphire, inhalation, air, protecting/leading): He uses a sapphire to survive the Highstorm, inhales Stormlight for his powers, Syl is a spren associated with Air, he tries to protect everyone and is a natural leader. Solid case.
2. Jasnah (Smokestone, smoke, learned/giving): She uses her smokestone in her "soulcaster" most of all (the obstructing boulder, and the two thieves she wasn't touching), she is very learned, and could be perceived as giving, if you stretch a bit. Fairly solid.
3. Talenel (ruby, soul, fire, brave/obedient): No support for Ruby, his soul was trapped, and then returned, he shows bravery by choosing impossible fights and winning, and obedience by not abandoning the Oathpact. Fairly solid.
4. Art Destroyer (Diamond, eyes, loving/healing): eyes look at art? not much here, needed a woman for the slot. Weak.
5. Elhokar (Emerald, Just/Confident): Wins an emerald gemheart in the hunt, isn't very just or confidant now, but could easily become so later. Fairly weak case. Adolin could also fit here fairly well.
6. Shallan (Garnet, Blood, Creative/Honest): Uses a garnet to reach Shadesmar, soulcasts the goblet to blood, bleeds lots when she "attempts suicide" backbreaker powder is a blood poison. Symbolheads could be associated with blood (see ch 4. epigraph, "I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.") She is extremely creative, and genuine. Solid case.
7. Dalinar (Zircon, Oil, wise/careful): Dalinar needed to be in here somewhere, and he fits best with wise/careful by the end of the book. Fairly weak case.
8. Navani (Amethyst, metal, resolute/builder): nothing with Amethyst, metal is needed to build fabrials, which she does. She also is very determined, not too sure about "builder" though. Medium strength case.
9. Szeth (Topaz, bone, rock. dependable/resourceful): Windrunners were described as blue and yellow (IIRC), Kaladin is Sapphire, so that leaves Topaz for Szeth. nothing for bone, but rock could easily be his oathstone. He is very dependable and resourceful, succeeding in all of the tasks given to him. Strong case.
10. Rysn (Heliodor, pious/guiding): A heliodor powered the sensing fabrial that she set up. Not much here either. Weak case.
Some things that I know I missed: who are the pictures in the chapter headings of in each of their viewpoint chapters? as well, I seem to recall hearing that all of the main characters were introduced already, but I'm not sure when.
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Before we even start discussing your character choices, I must ask - why? What makes you think that this is the direction the series is going?
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There's actually a theory, which I think is pretty plausible, that all ten original Heralds are still alive and may be convinced to take up arms again by the end of the series. Part of this theory is that the art-destroying woman is one of them, and she's specifically destroying art that depicts herself. Also, that the statue Szeth notices is missing in the prologue was destroyed by her.
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It is an interesting theory. The thing is, who would be the one to name them heralds? The being who would likely do so has told Dalinar that he has died. A few of those names are prime candidates to be the "champion" of mankind though (cough Kaladin) ;).
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It is an interesting theory. The thing is, who would be the one to name them heralds? The being who would likely do so has told Dalinar that he has died. A few of those names are prime candidates to be the "champion" of mankind though (cough Kaladin) ;).
The theory is that they never really stopped being Heralds. Honor may be dead, but his power is doubtless floating around or otherwise accessible. The things he did to the various people to make them Heralds, or bargains he made, or whatever, may still be in force. Thus the Heralds would be... themselves. If they're still alive, they probably have access to their other powers as well.
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Before we even start discussing your character choices, I must ask - why? What makes you think that this is the direction the series is going?
I actually started with matching the characters to the gems etc. then trying to figure out what is meant by the pairing of the characters to their gems/attributes, so it may just be a strong case of confirmation bias backed by weak assumptions, but here goes anyways.
1. It will conclude with a fight against Odium because that is what is done in an epic series. The story will build up in scale until they are fighting at the level of gods.
2. It will be a fight between champions, not a direct god on god fight, like Vin vs. Ruin in HoA, because of the quote from Dalinar's vision (I think) that said that perhaps they could get him (Odium?) to choose a champion.
3. The champions for good will be the Heralds because that is what they were before. The champions will not be the Knights Radiant, because 800 champions are too many, while 10 is still okay.
4a. They will be (at least mostly) characters from this time, not Heralds from 4500 years ago, because I think that they have left (ch. 46, pp648 the Almighty(?) speaking to Kaladin in the Highstorm "Child of Tanavast (a Herald?). Child of Honor. Child of one long since departed...")
4b. Even if the Heralds were still here, they would not be the champions, because that would make the main characters from WoK secondary to the story of the Stormlight Archive, which doesn't seem like a good thing to do.
5. Kaladin and Dalinar have had direct communication from the Almighty during Highstorms. It seems to me that the job of a Herald is to tell of the coming of a Desolation, which could only be possible with foreknowledge granted by the Almighty.
Looking back, I see some weak links, especially #5 and "champions" over a single champion, and I am mixing in-world and editorial reasons for events, but that's how I got there.
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Tanavast is the original name of the Almighty before he took the Shard Honor.
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Tanavast is the original name of the Almighty before he took the Shard Honor.
I see. Well, even if there is no in-world reason given why the original Heralds wouldn't come back to their positions, the narrative ones are not affected by this.
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I'm actually theorizing at the moment that the bargain the Heralds made for their power wasn't with Almighty. I don't really have a basis for that, except for the vague feeling that a deal made with a power for good shouldn't send its champions to a place of eternal torment for long periods of time.
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I'm actually theorizing at the moment that the bargain the Heralds made for their power wasn't with Almighty. I don't really have a basis for that, except for the vague feeling that a deal made with a power for good shouldn't send its champions to a place of eternal torment for long periods of time.
Good point. But that leads us to the question, who did they bargain with?
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I'm actually theorizing at the moment that the bargain the Heralds made for their power wasn't with Almighty. I don't really have a basis for that, except for the vague feeling that a deal made with a power for good shouldn't send its champions to a place of eternal torment for long periods of time.
Good point. But that leads us to the question, who did they bargain with?
It seems the only conclusion you could get to is Odium, but we aren't sure of the chronology I guess. This makes me think that he came to them at some point,and made a deal with them BEFORE he actually stayed on Roshar permanently. Therefore they would be Heralds of Odiums coming. Unless I missed something, what else would they be heralding? The 3 (I think its 3) other Shards on Roshar have all been there for awhile, I can't see how the Heralds would then be heralding any of them. It just leaves me to believe that they are really Heralds of Odium (maybe before they realized the extent of his plans, or evil).
I'm really liking this thread :)
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It just leaves me to believe that they are really Heralds of Odium (maybe before they realized the extent of his plans, or evil).
I wouldn't go quite this far. I think that the Heralds are bound to both Honor and Odium, because the Oathpact is binding the Heralds to both of them. That is why they are sent to hell (or whatever it is) between Desolations, but always return to bring word of the Desolation and fight again. They are (or at least say that they are) the Heralds of the Almighty (epilogue, pp1001), but a Parshendi knife had what appeared to be a picture of a Herald on it (ch 27, pp402), which would seem to show some bond between them.
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On page 17, in the prelude, Kalak says that "the enemy" would not be bound by their action and that he would find a way around it. They do have an enemy in one of the gods. Perhaps when Honor died, Odium inherited the oathpact, but could not break it because he was bound by rules against it. Maybe he could not break it, but he would make it as miserable for the heralds as he could. All of this is blind speculation, but it is fun.
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I don't think that the Oathpact could be "inherited" by Odium because I imagine it as a contract between (probably) Honor and Odium, with the Heralds and Desolations as conditions to uphold it. This sets the boundaries of the fight and outlines the conditions. This could have been done to avoid mutually assured destruction (like Vin vs. Ruin). Both gods benefit hugely from this arrangement. Odium gets to attack every 100 years (?), and Honor now had a bond to Odium, as well as motivating all people to band together and help each other through the Desolation, probably using oaths/contracts.
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Well, my pet theory at the moment is that the Heralds made a contract with Odium in order to protect the people of Roshar from his power. Maybe they gained power out of it, maybe they imposed limits and rules on his attacks (the Desolations) in exchange for possession of their souls, maybe it was something we can't even guess yet. And of course until we know more about Odium and what he wants we just can't even really come close to knowing. :)
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Well, my pet theory at the moment is that the Heralds made a contract with Odium in order to protect the people of Roshar from his power. Maybe they gained power out of it, maybe they imposed limits and rules on his attacks (the Desolations) in exchange for possession of their souls, maybe it was something we can't even guess yet. And of course until we know more about Odium and what he wants we just can't even really come close to knowing. :)
Yeah, I like this. Its a much more refined idea than mine. The Heralds make a deal with Odium, but it is more to protect Roshar by sacrificing themselves. At some point, most of the Heralds get tired of it, but one remains as the vigilant protector of Roshar, suffering by himself. Very interesting idea.
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I always imagined the Cycle of Desolations as (at least partially) a positive force, as it gave all of humanity a common enemy to fight against, binding them closer to one another, and giving people a force to shape them into honourable fighters, as any group made up of traitors and cowards would fall to the forces of the Desolation. This is basically an argument for Social Darwinism, and would lead to a society that is tightly bound together by both a long tradition and necessity. This is supported by the back of the book, ("...Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.") as well as the fact that the Desolations stopped with the breaking of the Oathpact. If Odium had wanted to, he (it?) could have instead unleashed his power and brought a final battle to destroy mankind, as Honor no longer had champions in the Heralds.
I can't see the Heralds gaining their powers from a deal with Odium, because then they would be fundamentally different from surgebinding (which they might be). I still think that it was a deal between Honor and Odium, granting the Heralds the powers of Honor, in exchange for the tortures of Odium.
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I really like CabbyHat and ulysses sword's theories. I actually can't decide which I like better but they both leave me wondering about a couple things. In CabbyHat's theory I'm wondering why the Heralds would make the Oathpact knowing that a thousand years of torture await them. In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal. I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.
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In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal. I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.
That's a weakness that I haven't been able to resolve very well. The best I could come up with is that without the Oathpact, Honor and Odium would have had a direct god on god fight, like Vin vs. Ruin, and both would inevitably be destroyed. This is because Honor would have an inescapable duty to protect the citizens of Roshar, because most religions trade obedience (from a person) for protection (from a god). This is somewhat reliant on the idea that there was a time before the Desolations where people worshipped Honor in this way, and Odium had not yet come.
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I really like CabbyHat and ulysses sword's theories. I actually can't decide which I like better but they both leave me wondering about a couple things. In CabbyHat's theory I'm wondering why the Heralds would make the Oathpact knowing that a thousand years of torture await them. In ulysses sword's theory I'm wondering what other angle Odium has worked into the deal. I mean, torturing Heralds and sending out Desolations is fun for him/her/it, but it doesn't feel like enough incentive.
Well, in most fiction where deals with the devil feature into the story, the characters don't seem to feel that eternal torture is an unfair trade. The human mind seems to have trouble grasping what exactly an eternity means, or even a thousand years.
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Preservation-infused Vin and Ruin killed each other off because their Shards' essences were opposite. Honor and Odium could have a showdown, I think.
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Preservation-infused Vin and Ruin killed each other off because their Shards' essences were opposite. Honor and Odium could have a showdown, I think.
In fact, we know that Odium killed of Aona and Skai (in the world of Elantris) and that was apparently no problem, so they can fight. In fact, Odium already killed Honor. The "Shade of Honor" says so himself. So there. No showdown needed. Odium killed Honor. And lived.
As for the deal with Odium theory - why should the Heralds fight in the desolations if they had a deal with Odium? Why should there be desolations if Odium has a deal? What more would he want - destroying Roshar? If so, why deal with the Heralds? Makes no sense to me.
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In fact, we know that Odium killed of Aona and Skai (in the world of Elantris) and that was apparently no problem, so they can fight. In fact, Odium already killed Honor. The "Shade of Honor" says so himself. So there. No showdown needed. Odium killed Honor. And lived.
I disagree, but the facts may support you, as I couldn't find the quotes I was looking for. IIRC, it said something like Odium went there, and now they are destroyed without mentioning how that came to be. I didn't think that they were "killed" from fighting immediately after Odium appeared, but rather that they were sapped of power first when all of their efforts were turned against themselves by the forces of Odium. This could be done by using things that other gods are powering (eg. their magic, intended to preserve, ruin, communicate, endow, etc...) to fuel his own ends (spreading hate). This is mostly based off of the theory "The Principle Of Intent" (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/369-theory-the-principle-of-intent/) on 17th shard. If they were far enough out of balance, then Odium could then fight and destroy the other shard.
The same thing could have happened on Roshar, with Odium using oaths powered by Honor to spread hate, thereby sapping Honor's power for himself.
Also, I found some pretty glaring errors in my list of who would be the new Heralds. Szeth was confirmed to be a windrunner (same as Kaladin), and Talenel is Topaz (Bone/Stone/Dependable/Resourceful), not Ruby. I now need a new man for Ruby (Soul/Fire/Brave/Obedient). It could be Adolin, but it isn't a very strong connection.