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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: echigo109 on October 13, 2010, 02:07:15 AM

Title: knights radient
Post by: echigo109 on October 13, 2010, 02:07:15 AM
So did each of the orders of the knights radient have there own magic system?
If so What all are they... as of now i know of surgebinding and the unnamed soulcasting one.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: jkincaid on October 13, 2010, 02:37:15 AM
According to Brandon in interviews each of the orders incorporated two systems of magic that they used.  I'm not sure if each order had exclusive rights to whatever systems they used or if there was any overlapping.  Szeth can Surgebind (right?) and I just sort of assumed that's what Kaladin was doing.  Or maybe Kaladin was using a different system that has abilities that are similar but has differences as well.  And so would Szeth and Kaladin end up in the same order?  And we could assume that they'd both have the ability to use a second system of magic as well. 
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 13, 2010, 11:24:16 AM
Unless Szeth is using a fabrial.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: jkincaid on October 13, 2010, 12:48:21 PM
Well there was no hint of him using a fabrial anywhere that I can recall.  He inhaled the stormlight in the same way that Kaladin did later on, so he seemed to be using it the same way. 
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 13, 2010, 12:55:02 PM
The theories are out there, based on the fact that we never see Szeth's spren. When I mention fabrial, I probably don't mean fabrial like we see in the eastern countries (i.e. Navani's notebook), but a different version possibly created by the stone shamans, and linked to stone rather than a gem. Strictly speaking its not really a fabrial, but I know of no better word.

Unfortunately, we have no real evidence, just wild speculation. I just thought I'd throw it in there to make you aware, and just for a bit of discussion.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: jkincaid on October 14, 2010, 02:59:21 AM
Yeah that's a good point.  I know I've seen a bit of speculation about the fact that Szeth is Truthless, having an Oathstone, and Kaladin having an honorspren that is connected to his access to his powers.  However Szeth seems to have attained his honor, at least to me.  However I don't see how an honor spren would consider murdering innocent people honorable because someone dishonorable holds the Oathstone that binds Szeth's honor.  I really wish we had more info here, is the next book out yet  :P
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 14, 2010, 07:17:00 AM
The problem with honour is that it honour, as we are dealing with it here, is up to philosophical debate. Just because you kill some people, does that make you honourable. Some cultures would believe so, others would not.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Kykeon on October 14, 2010, 09:08:21 AM
Yeah that's a good point.  I know I've seen a bit of speculation about the fact that Szeth is Truthless, having an Oathstone, and Kaladin having an honorspren that is connected to his access to his powers.  However Szeth seems to have attained his honor, at least to me.  However I don't see how an honor spren would consider murdering innocent people honorable because someone dishonorable holds the Oathstone that binds Szeth's honor.  I really wish we had more info here, is the next book out yet  :P
He is honouring his oaths by doing whatever is required of him.


Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: echigo109 on October 15, 2010, 01:04:49 AM
HAHA wow... I ask a question and it is taken into a debate about szeth
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: krylea on October 15, 2010, 01:48:05 AM
Do we think that Szeth and Kaladin belong to the same order of the Radiants? They definitely both seem honourable, but i thought since there were going to be ~10 major characters and 10 orders that each would belong to a different order.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 15, 2010, 01:52:57 AM
Maybe. In fact most likely as they both seem to be honourable, though in different ways. (This assumption only works though if each order has a different type of spren. If honourspren could bond with more than one type of order, then this would not hold.)

However, since one magic system is spread over 2 orders of knights, its really to early to tell. If they share a common second magic system, then we will know for definite.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Amphictyon on October 15, 2010, 09:16:19 AM
You're forgetting that a connection between man and spren doesn't necessarily mean man and honorspren.  It's been stated that it could be another type of spren, maybe flame, rot, death, wind etc... So if that is the case who know what other kind of powers there could be.  We've seen a surgebinders powers as far as windrunning used by Kaladin and Szeth, the lashing and so on but I don't think we've seen everything yet.  The powers that Kaladin and Szeth are almost unheard of and not much is known.  Only one character had even a slight idea of what Kaladin was doing and he came from a family who was passing the knowledge down through the generations.  As far as Szeth having his powers through his oathstone I'm not so sure about that.  He has never actually had it in his possession, only his masters have.  Now he could be connected to it and have powers that way, but it sounds like that would be a first as every fabrial or magical type item, from shards to lanterns, have had to be touched in some way to be manipulated. 
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Kykeon on October 15, 2010, 09:16:57 AM
HAHA wow... I ask a question and it is taken into a debate about szeth
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Rule No. 1 of forums: Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Galavantes on October 15, 2010, 11:45:17 AM
HAHA wow... I ask a question and it is taken into a debate about szeth
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Rule No. 1 of forums: Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post.
How about them jets
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: EvilNuff on October 15, 2010, 01:45:48 PM
Szeth does not have powers through his oathstone, all Shin warriors have oathstones:
Quote
“Shin are a curious folk,” he said. “Here, warriors are the lowliest of men—kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same. The fellow in the fancy robe? He’s a farmer.”

If you pick up a weapon, powers or not, you have an oathstone.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Pechvarry on October 15, 2010, 05:21:43 PM
I DO think there's a magic to the oathstone, but I think it's only for the Shin to track the owners (trusting the owners will have enough honor to keep them).  This explains how they intend to reclaim his shardblade if he dies.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Kykeon on October 15, 2010, 06:19:13 PM
Agreed.
It is definetly not like the Oathrod. ;)
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Salkara on October 15, 2010, 08:05:21 PM
HAHA wow... I ask a question and it is taken into a debate about szeth
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Rule No. 1 of forums: Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post.
How about them jets

Glad LT is having a good year. He needed it after we let him go.

As for the Oathstone... perhaps Szeth's honorspren is trapped inside? That'd explain a few things in my head.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 15, 2010, 10:58:36 PM
You're forgetting that a connection between man and spren doesn't necessarily mean man and honorspren.  It's been stated that it could be another type of spren, maybe flame, rot, death, wind etc... So if that is the case who know what other kind of powers there could be.  We've seen a surgebinders powers as far as windrunning used by Kaladin and Szeth, the lashing and so on but I don't think we've seen everything yet.  The powers that Kaladin and Szeth are almost unheard of and not much is known.  Only one character had even a slight idea of what Kaladin was doing and he came from a family who was passing the knowledge down through the generations.  As far as Szeth having his powers through his oathstone I'm not so sure about that.  He has never actually had it in his possession, only his masters have.  Now he could be connected to it and have powers that way, but it sounds like that would be a first as every fabrial or magical type item, from shards to lanterns, have had to be touched in some way to be manipulated. 

In fact, I'm working off the assumption that each order of knights has a different type of spren attached to them. But then I started wondering if the type of spren is attached to some other aspect of the magic system.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Amphictyon on October 15, 2010, 11:55:52 PM
In fact, I'm working off the assumption that each order of knights has a different type of spren attached to them. But then I started wondering if the type of spren is attached to some other aspect of the magic system.

That's what I was thinking as well.  In the 17th shard interview Brandon mentions how to determine who the 10 radiants were by the glyphs at the front of the book.  We can assume surgbinders were one, windrunners another, or one and the same?  We also have soulcasters, who obviously have the power innately, mostly.  Like Shallan and Jasnah.  How about the stormwardens?  They haven't been mentioned much aside from being able to predict highstorms, but what else can they do?  It's my opinion that these branches all had something to do with the knights radiant clans.  I could be off, but it sounds plausible.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: jkincaid on October 16, 2010, 03:37:51 AM
Just to clarify I didn't think that Szeth's powers were attained through his Oathstone, just that his honor is somehow kept through his Oathstone.  Or something along those lines.  I was thinking that the honorspren still connects Szeth to his ability to Surgebind even though it hasn't been seen.  Of course that would be assuming that Szeth is working through a spren at all, since we haven't ever seen one.  It appeared as if Szeth abiding by his Oathstone is entirely voluntary, such as at the end of the book when he came close to killing Taravangian (sp?) but didn't in order to retain his honor.   
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 16, 2010, 05:16:36 AM
I have the theory that the oathstone is a fabrial like object trapping spren in stone instead of gems, created by a stone shaman.

EDIT: Windrunning is a type of surgebinding, just like a square is a type of rectangle.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Liralyn on October 16, 2010, 06:11:17 AM
Windrunning is a type of surgebinding, just like a square is a type of rectangle.

Squares are also a type of rhombus, but rectangles are not.   ;) --I just gave a test over this in my geometry class today.
But how does that analogy play out for this theory?  It remains to be seen...
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 16, 2010, 06:13:53 AM
Aristotle's logic at work!  :)
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Andrew the Great on October 16, 2010, 07:22:52 AM
*Cowers in horrified memory of Geometry Tests and all those incredibly useless facts we had to memorize that can now be easily derived*

I like the idea about Szeth's Oathstone being a tracer of sorts. And I can see him placing enough weight in his honor that if someone with lots of influence in Shinovar (ie a stone shaman) were to tell him that the only honor he could achieve in life was through serving the holder of his oathstone, it'd hold him. His oathstone isn't like the Oath Rod in WoT where it compels him to act, IMO.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: happyman on October 17, 2010, 12:03:42 AM

I like the idea about Szeth's Oathstone being a tracer of sorts. And I can see him placing enough weight in his honor that if someone with lots of influence in Shinovar (ie a stone shaman) were to tell him that the only honor he could achieve in life was through serving the holder of his oathstone, it'd hold him. His oathstone isn't like the Oath Rod in WoT where it compels him to act, IMO.

I agree with this.  I think that his behavior is enforced strictly internally, but that when we understand why he believes it so thoroughly, it will shock us.

Note that he believes that if he does not obey the owner of the oathstone, his soul will be destroyed, whereas if he does obey the owner, he will go to hell but still exist as a soul.  It's an odd religion from what little I've picked up of it.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Cheese Ninja on October 17, 2010, 06:17:29 AM
I DO think there's a magic to the oathstone, but I think it's only for the Shin to track the owners (trusting the owners will have enough honor to keep them).  This explains how they intend to reclaim his shardblade if he dies.

Along these lines, Szeth was able to find his Oathstone when the Parshendi threw it in a ditch by the road after leaving the city in the prologue.  If he wasn't watching them throw it there, he must be able to track it somehow when he needs to.  I don't think he's constantly aware of its location though, judging by his reactions to it in the interludes.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on October 17, 2010, 06:54:42 AM
What's with the absurd assumption that these powers come from spren?! It is a theory that doesn't hold much water, it is possible but unlikely, so can we please stop taking it as a given? There is no evidence that Szeth has a spren (nor would I call him honorable but rather a coward because he disagrees with what he does but is to afraid to break a cultural taboo, murder is not honorable but you could argue that killing can be, Szeth kills and murders) and there aren't spren from where he comes from. that is a given
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on October 17, 2010, 07:26:27 AM
I don't think its absurd. Fabrials are powered by spren. Syl has the power to bond things, and suddenly Kaladin has that power as well. Spren take Shallan to Shadesmar, and presumably the spren in the goblet asks to be changed.

There is a lot of evidence supporting the powers coming from the spren. Sure, stormlight is needed to fuel the magic, but it is the spren who define the actual magic.

I see no evidence to support that spren have nothing to do with the magic.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Ari54 on October 17, 2010, 09:43:52 AM
You're forgetting that a connection between man and spren doesn't necessarily mean man and honorspren.  It's been stated that it could be another type of spren, maybe flame, rot, death, wind etc... So if that is the case who know what other kind of powers there could be.  We've seen a surgebinders powers as far as windrunning used by Kaladin and Szeth, the lashing and so on but I don't think we've seen everything yet.  The powers that Kaladin and Szeth are almost unheard of and not much is known.  Only one character had even a slight idea of what Kaladin was doing and he came from a family who was passing the knowledge down through the generations.  As far as Szeth having his powers through his oathstone I'm not so sure about that.  He has never actually had it in his possession, only his masters have.  Now he could be connected to it and have powers that way, but it sounds like that would be a first as every fabrial or magical type item, from shards to lanterns, have had to be touched in some way to be manipulated. 

The working theory we've been going on is that each Order has an affinity with a different type or type(s) of Spren.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: EvilNuff on October 17, 2010, 04:02:54 PM
The spren affinity has some logic.  The problem I have with that theory, however, is the lack of spren in Dalinar's visions.  There are none and there are still Knights Radient...
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: CragN8R on October 17, 2010, 06:34:32 PM
I wonder if Szeth's lack of a spren has to do with his Shardblade. We know that the blades changed after the knights gaave them up, since Dalinar said that he saw a light leaving them. Plus Syl said that she didn't like the blade and thought that Dalinar was better without it. So what if Szeth's lack of spren is due to the fact that he hold a "cursed" blade?
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on October 18, 2010, 08:46:23 PM
The theory itself isn't entirely absurd the assumption that it is fact, and the amount of certainty that the people supporting it make it seem as if they believe it is fact, IS absurd. Fabrials are powered by spren? Please give me a quote from the book that says this or even remotely supports it. I may have a poor recollection but i can't think of ANY evidence to support that claim, less in fact than the theory that Szeth has an honor spren (which is contrary to everything we know of him and his homeland).
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: nomti on October 18, 2010, 09:27:20 PM
The spren affinity has some logic.  The problem I have with that theory, however, is the lack of spren in Dalinar's visions.  There are none and there are still Knights Radient...

In the vision with Nohadon, he specifically mentions honorspren, and how the antagonist in the recent civil war had a different, less discriminating kind of spren.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: douglas on October 18, 2010, 09:37:02 PM
Fabrials are powered by spren? Please give me a quote from the book that says this or even remotely supports it.
See this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7882.0). It's a bit of an easter egg, as it's in one of the pictures in the book and in a simple code. Breaking the code produces, among other things:
Quote
The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations.
Once a spren is captured and the gem infused with Stormlight the fabrial can be used in machines.

less in fact than the theory that Szeth has an honor spren (which is contrary to everything we know of him and his homeland).
Contrary to what we know of his homeland?  Yes. Weakened by the fact that we never see any such spren around him? Yes. Contrary to what we know of him specifically? Not even close.

It is abundantly clear from many references throughout Szeth's scenes that he is an extremely honorable man, forced to do despicable things because his honor will not allow him to break an oath. He is also a Surgebinder, and there is quite substantial evidence that Surgebinding abilities come from bonding with an honorspren. There might conceivably be other ways, and a comment in one of Dalinar's visions implies that at least one other type of spren can grant Surgebinding, but none have been revealed yet.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: KhyEllie on January 06, 2011, 02:00:55 AM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: CabbyHat on January 07, 2011, 04:41:51 PM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

That's... an interesting theory. The only thing I can think of at the moment is, if that's the case, why did they give up their shards at all? The Parshendi quite clearly desire shardplate and shardblades and will throw a lot of effort after getting them.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: KhyEllie on January 08, 2011, 05:38:42 AM
Yeah, I see that too. So I wonder if Jasnah's got it wrong and the voidbringers are the Parshendi. But that seems to bring up a lot more questions than the other option...
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Ari54 on January 10, 2011, 04:37:54 AM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

It might explain why they seem to have access to shards. We run into the issue of where the Spren for the Parshendi are, given that characters that should be able to see them (e.g. Rock and Kaladin) can't. This isn't insurmountable given we also have to explain Szeth's apparent lack of or suppression of his Spren.

There still seem to be magic systems we don't know about, so this could for instance explain how high the Parshendi can jump.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on January 10, 2011, 05:42:38 AM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

I don't think it was so much the knights that fell to grace, but the humans around them. Without the threat of the voidbringers, humanity started fighting amongst themselves, and the knights got sick and tired of being used in these fights, so they gave up and let humanity fight amongst themselves.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: andygal on January 10, 2011, 05:52:33 AM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

I don't think it was so much the knights that fell to grace, but the humans around them. Without the threat of the voidbringers, humanity started fighting amongst themselves, and the knights got sick and tired of being used in these fights, so they gave up and let humanity fight amongst themselves.

You'd think if they were sick and tired of all the fighting they would have hidden the Blades and Plate away where nobody was going to find them anytime soon, of course, maybe the other orders besides the Windrunners  and Stonewards did, and that's why there are hundreds of Shards missing. Rather then you know leaving the fighting people with even better ways to kill each other.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on January 10, 2011, 05:58:49 AM

You'd think if they were sick and tired of all the fighting they would have hidden the Blades and Plate away where nobody was going to find them anytime soon, of course, maybe the other orders besides the Windrunners  and Stonewards did, and that's why there are hundreds of Shards missing. Rather then you know leaving the fighting people with even better ways to kill each other.

Maybe they wanted to make a public display of giving up. However I am certain that there must be more knights radiants that gave up the sword that wasn't at the same place as Dalinar was. And don't forget that a lot of shards are missing. How did this happen?

Also, on a side note, what happened to the dawnshards that the heralds gave up in the prelude? Are they still there, or has someone come and taken them?
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: CabbyHat on January 10, 2011, 06:27:56 PM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

I don't think it was so much the knights that fell to grace, but the humans around them. Without the threat of the voidbringers, humanity started fighting amongst themselves, and the knights got sick and tired of being used in these fights, so they gave up and let humanity fight amongst themselves.

You'd think if they were sick and tired of all the fighting they would have hidden the Blades and Plate away where nobody was going to find them anytime soon, of course, maybe the other orders besides the Windrunners  and Stonewards did, and that's why there are hundreds of Shards missing. Rather then you know leaving the fighting people with even better ways to kill each other.
Or it could be just their way of saying "You know what? You want to use these things to slaughter each other, you have fun with that. We're done."
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: happyman on January 11, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
Can I just throw out a random theory on the Knights Radiant here? I was reading the back of the book, and ended up just staring at the line, "before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us." for ten minutes.
 
For no apparently reason it occurred to me that maybe the Radiants have somehow 'fallen from grace' for lack of a better term, and that maybe they got cursed, or something to that effect.

It's been a long time since I have had the book--I just barely got it back--and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember something about the Voidbringers being the parshmen, or at least that's what Jasnah thinks. Any chance the Radiants are Parshendi? or vise versa?

I just had to write it down before I started pulling apart the flaws :P

Any thoughts?

I don't think it was so much the knights that fell to grace, but the humans around them. Without the threat of the voidbringers, humanity started fighting amongst themselves, and the knights got sick and tired of being used in these fights, so they gave up and let humanity fight amongst themselves.

You'd think if they were sick and tired of all the fighting they would have hidden the Blades and Plate away where nobody was going to find them anytime soon, of course, maybe the other orders besides the Windrunners  and Stonewards did, and that's why there are hundreds of Shards missing. Rather then you know leaving the fighting people with even better ways to kill each other.
Or it could be just their way of saying "You know what? You want to use these things to slaughter each other, you have fun with that. We're done."

You know, the scene where the Knights Radiant gave up has always seemed more than a little bit unusual to me.

In the other visions Dalinar saw, even for other parts of that same vision, things seemed "normal" until the Almighty patched in his extra message.  Humans reacted in the way humans normally react.  We didn't have the complete background, but that's OK; the feeling that it's there never really seemed to waver.  But with that vision---things seemed really, really odd.  Why didn't the Knights Radiant respond to Dalinar's questions?  Why didn't they at least say something to the people they were abandoning?  That whole scene seemed like a nightmare, not a piece of history.  Something happened with that vision, and I'm not sure what, exactly.  I don't think it's a "Odium tampered with the visions," not the same way it happened in Mistborn.  But something seems really, really off.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on January 12, 2011, 12:09:27 AM

You know, the scene where the Knights Radiant gave up has always seemed more than a little bit unusual to me.

In the other visions Dalinar saw, even for other parts of that same vision, things seemed "normal" until the Almighty patched in his extra message.  Humans reacted in the way humans normally react.  We didn't have the complete background, but that's OK; the feeling that it's there never really seemed to waver.  But with that vision---things seemed really, really odd.  Why didn't the Knights Radiant respond to Dalinar's questions?  Why didn't they at least say something to the people they were abandoning?  That whole scene seemed like a nightmare, not a piece of history.  Something happened with that vision, and I'm not sure what, exactly.  I don't think it's a "Odium tampered with the visions," not the same way it happened in Mistborn.  But something seems really, really off.

Quite possibly. But I don't think the whole vision was tampered with. Only the end part. The beginning feels normal enough.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: happyman on January 13, 2011, 04:35:14 PM

You know, the scene where the Knights Radiant gave up has always seemed more than a little bit unusual to me.

In the other visions Dalinar saw, even for other parts of that same vision, things seemed "normal" until the Almighty patched in his extra message.  Humans reacted in the way humans normally react.  We didn't have the complete background, but that's OK; the feeling that it's there never really seemed to waver.  But with that vision---things seemed really, really odd.  Why didn't the Knights Radiant respond to Dalinar's questions?  Why didn't they at least say something to the people they were abandoning?  That whole scene seemed like a nightmare, not a piece of history.  Something happened with that vision, and I'm not sure what, exactly.  I don't think it's a "Odium tampered with the visions," not the same way it happened in Mistborn.  But something seems really, really off.
Quite possibly. But I don't think the whole vision was tampered with. Only the end part. The beginning feels normal enough.

Very true.  The beginning is normal enough.  It's just when Dalinar runs out and tries to talk to the radiants that things pick up a surreal feel.  It's almost like that bit isn't literally true, but rather symbolic, if that makes any sense.  Maybe the context is such that it makes sense, if we knew more history.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: CabbyHat on January 15, 2011, 01:52:56 AM
The spren affinity has some logic.  The problem I have with that theory, however, is the lack of spren in Dalinar's visions.  There are none and there are still Knights Radient...

Just a wild theory that just jumped to mind... but what if there are no spren in the visions because they were all bound to Radiants? After the Radiants fell, their spren were all abandoned to just wander through the world, mindless and without memories, like Syl was. After a while people just got so used to seeing them around that they took them to be a natural part of life.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Stormblessed on January 16, 2011, 01:09:10 AM

Just a wild theory that just jumped to mind... but what if there are no spren in the visions because they were all bound to Radiants? After the Radiants fell, their spren were all abandoned to just wander through the world, mindless and without memories, like Syl was. After a while people just got so used to seeing them around that they took them to be a natural part of life.

I vaguely recall Brandon or Peter somewhere saying that not all spren can bond with people. So therefore there should still be some spren left in the world.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: EvilNuff on January 16, 2011, 01:41:13 AM
My supposition is that the spren that bond with the nahal (sp?) bond was it? are special spren and the other spren came about after the stormfather's death.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: andygal on January 16, 2011, 02:37:03 AM
It's spelled Nahel.

Also, the Stormfather (Jezrien) might or might not be dead, the Almighty is dead.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: cromptj on February 20, 2011, 11:56:28 PM
On the subject of Szeth, it is possible that Syl was the spren that bonded with him as Syl cannot remember much over a year ago and Szeth never thinks about his bond in his POVs.
As Brandon has mentioned that this book would be like an Age of Legends rather than an Age of Illusions, I think it is safe to guess that there will be a lot more spren binding in the future- assuming that it is the spren that will take Roshar into an AoL and not the mass production and use of fabrials.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Argent on February 21, 2011, 06:45:57 AM
@cromptj, I believe that the honorspren binding to Surgebinders are what gives them their abilities. It's a mutual relationship - the human gets Surgebinding, the spred gets... well, humanity. So Szeth's connection with his spren has been severed somehow, he'd lose his abilities.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: andygal on February 21, 2011, 07:54:01 AM
I think the superspren, the ones that bond to people and grant them abilities,  like honorspren and the symbolspren/truthspren whatever you want to call them that Shallan talks to are deliberately created Splinters of the Almighty's Shard he made a long time ago, like the divine Breath that  empowers the Returned.  The other spren are the pieces that Almighty's Shard was broken into after Odium killed him. That's why they don't show up in Dalinar's visions, cause those were all recorded before the Almighty died.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: cromptj on February 21, 2011, 06:54:44 PM
@Argent, if that is the case, then why does Szeth not mention his spren at all? With all the talking that Syl does, I would be surprised if Szeth's spren was completely inactive.
Title: Re: knights radient
Post by: Argent on February 22, 2011, 07:54:37 AM
I have no answer. It may have to do with that it means to be a Truthless. But I am certain that when Syl offered to leave Kaladin, she said that if she did so, the changes happening to both of them would revert - he would lose his powers and she would go back to being silly. I could give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that Syl doesn't know for sure whether these things would happen (and Brandon likes doing stuff like that), but her words come as close to truth as we've seen in the book.