Timewaster's Guide Archive

Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Stormblessed on October 05, 2010, 08:21:37 AM

Title: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 05, 2010, 08:21:37 AM
I have been sitting on this theory for awhile.

Anyway, I read this quote from the Prelude:
Quote
Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free of the stone to join the free.
and I begun wondering, assuming thunderclasts are not voidbringers, is it possibly that thunderclasts are animated stones. Maybe through voidbinding, the voidbringers can bring stone to life, creating creatures like thunderclasts, that rip themselves free of the very stone that they were once a part of.

P.S. When I think of this I always picture that scene from Galaxy Quest. You know the one, with the stone creature fighting Tim Allen's character
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on October 05, 2010, 05:18:50 PM
 ;D
Yes, I also picture that moment.
That moment is classic, from an excellent movie.


Interesting theory on the thunderclasts, I won't deny that that's what my original thought was. I'd like to see some more evidence before I'm convinced either way, we just know too little about the thunderclasts.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: VegasDev on October 05, 2010, 05:45:25 PM
You also have those creatures that Dalinar fights in a vision that almost appear to be made from smoke.

Edit: I mean to say, perhaps there are ones for the other focus elements or whatever they are called.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: calvin on October 05, 2010, 07:26:55 PM
I pictured something more like a stone leopard or Sphinx-like creature....full of power and tough to destroy.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Omelethead on October 06, 2010, 04:06:54 PM
I pictured them made of black stone, huge, and somewhat like this:
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100115022520/ageofempires/images/5/55/Behemoth.jpg)

...but with hands on their forelegs, not hoof-things. No tusks.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: VegasDev on October 06, 2010, 05:56:47 PM
I pictured something more like this, although I don't have any supporting evidence in the text:

(http://www.prismawelt.de/rubrik_galerie/fantasy/stone_golem.jpg)
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on October 06, 2010, 09:17:30 PM
My theory is that thunderclasts are a type of golem-like creature that get summoned at the scene of battle.
Maybe a spren placed in a gem is used to animate the stone and give it a certain measure of intelligence...
 
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Harakeke on October 06, 2010, 09:26:35 PM
(http://www.ohspress.com/wolbert/student_files/wd_1st_tri3_2008-09/swartz_zach/critic/images/rabbit.jpg)
Those ancient legends always exaggerate things...
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: guy on October 06, 2010, 09:48:50 PM
http://www.ahajokes.com/crt140.html
then again maybe not...
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Ari54 on October 07, 2010, 08:05:47 AM
Anyone else considered that this could be why the shattered plains exist? ;)
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 07, 2010, 09:22:41 AM
Anyone else considered that this could be why the shattered plains exist? ;)

Wasn't the Shattered Plains once the site of a great city/nation? Maybe during a desolation something happened involving voidbinding and thunderclasts which shattered the earth and created the plateaus.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Omelethead on October 07, 2010, 04:30:12 PM
Anyone else considered that this could be why the shattered plains exist? ;)

Wasn't the Shattered Plains once the site of a great city/nation? Maybe during a desolation something happened involving voidbinding and thunderclasts which shattered the earth and created the plateaus.

Urithiru?
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: happyman on October 07, 2010, 04:37:57 PM
Anyone else considered that this could be why the shattered plains exist? ;)

Wasn't the Shattered Plains once the site of a great city/nation? Maybe during a desolation something happened involving voidbinding and thunderclasts which shattered the earth and created the plateaus.

Urithiru?

I think Jasnah ruled that out explicitly.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on October 07, 2010, 05:53:12 PM
No, it was Natanatan.
Wasn't Urithiru out west somewhere?
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on October 07, 2010, 08:15:44 PM
You couldn't walk to Urithiru, sorry, Stormblessed.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Omelethead on October 08, 2010, 12:02:11 AM
You couldn't walk to Urithiru, sorry, Stormblessed.

That was me. My bad. I knew it was supposed to be out west, I guess I just got ahead of myself.

Although, technically you can't walk the Shattered Plains either. What with all the chasms and all.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 08, 2010, 01:09:01 AM
I think that Dalinar's vision implies that the Shattered Plains were only created after the fall of Natanatan.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: CabbyHat on October 08, 2010, 07:56:01 AM
Personally I feel like there's really something to the "voidbringers become thunderclasts" theory that I've seen brought up elsewhere a few times. I can't really think of anything else they'd pupate into, and we know they've been associated with voidbringers and the Desolations, from the drawing that Jasnah sent to Dalinar. It just feels right.

Of course, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong in a later book. My favourite moments are the ones where Brandon suddenly pulls the rug out from everything you thought you knew. :D
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 08, 2010, 08:01:23 AM
I like that voidbringers create thunderclasts. I can imagine thunderclasts, huge stone creaters like this:
(http://www.prismawelt.de/rubrik_galerie/fantasy/stone_golem.jpg)
(Thx for the picture VegasDev I like!!!)

Except these thunderclasts are like wardogs to the Voidbringers.

New theory: Maybe voidbinding is about bringing stone to life using gemhearts. So any greatshell creature (e.g. axehound, chull, chasmfiend) are all creatures created in the past by voidbinding, but are now walking around aimlessly and reproducing until the next desolation, when the voidbringers will return and give the greatshell creatures a purpose.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Harakeke on October 08, 2010, 08:51:25 AM
From the "Horses" thread...

Here's a theory - Greatshell carapace strength (and by extension maximum phyiscal size) is determined by the capacity of the individual's gemheart (i.e. natural fabrial).

Thus, the spren that emerge from a dying greatshell escape the gemheart at the moment of death are the physical manifestation of the Shadesmar concept {improbably big crab thing that is alive and does not crush under its own weight}. When the greatshell is alive, these spren are attracted to and trapped inside the gemheart. The spren make it possible for their host to breathe Stormlight which not only solves the oxygen-CO2 exchange problem, but also allows for great feats of strength. (We see similar effects as a result of Kaladin's bond with an honorspren.) This allows the greatshell to grow to Chasmfiend size. When the greatshell's connection to the cognitive realm is severed by death, the spren are no longer bound. Their departure leaves the gems inert and able to be cut by an autofabrian to target other varieties of spren.

Greatshells exist throughout Roshar (if I recall), but the ones in the Shattered Plains are particularly massive. Something about the nature of spren or Highstorms in that region (perhaps as a result and/or cause of the final battle of the last Desolation) makes them able to grow much more effective gemhearts.

Chulls would have comparably smaller gemhearts compared to Greatshells, which explains their more docile nature.
At the other end of this growth spectrum would lie Thunderclasts, which have super-efficient gemhearts that can hold/metabolize Stormlight much more efficiently.

To go even further out on a limb... Parshendi would be parshmen that use gemhearts as natural fabrials to maintain a level of shared consciousness. Their fabrials are tuned in pairs, much like spanreeds and are operated using vocal harmonics (i.e. songs) to evoke cymatic resonance. At the far end of this spectrum, you get Voidbringers, which hold Stormlight perfectly and have all sorts of crazy powers.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 08, 2010, 09:17:07 AM
Shesh, that is a good theory. I like it. I still think that Voidbringers have some way of creating greatshell beasts, but that still fits with your theory. I think we're getting somewhere here!!  :D
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on October 08, 2010, 02:07:57 PM
Hey, I already posted that theory!! ;D
A part of it at least...
I think it's likely because a gem discharges over the course of weeks, whereas the longest a human can hold his stormlight is a couple of minutes.
[see prologue and sezth's comment about voidbringers]
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on October 08, 2010, 05:38:45 PM
From the "Horses" thread...

Here's a theory - Greatshell carapace strength (and by extension maximum phyiscal size) is determined by the capacity of the individual's gemheart (i.e. natural fabrial).

Thus, the spren that emerge from a dying greatshell escape the gemheart at the moment of death are the physical manifestation of the Shadesmar concept {improbably big crab thing that is alive and does not crush under its own weight}. When the greatshell is alive, these spren are attracted to and trapped inside the gemheart. The spren make it possible for their host to breathe Stormlight which not only solves the oxygen-CO2 exchange problem, but also allows for great feats of strength. (We see similar effects as a result of Kaladin's bond with an honorspren.) This allows the greatshell to grow to Chasmfiend size. When the greatshell's connection to the cognitive realm is severed by death, the spren are no longer bound. Their departure leaves the gems inert and able to be cut by an autofabrian to target other varieties of spren.

Greatshells exist throughout Roshar (if I recall), but the ones in the Shattered Plains are particularly massive. Something about the nature of spren or Highstorms in that region (perhaps as a result and/or cause of the final battle of the last Desolation) makes them able to grow much more effective gemhearts.

Chulls would have comparably smaller gemhearts compared to Greatshells, which explains their more docile nature.
At the other end of this growth spectrum would lie Thunderclasts, which have super-efficient gemhearts that can hold/metabolize Stormlight much more efficiently.

To go even further out on a limb... Parshendi would be parshmen that use gemhearts as natural fabrials to maintain a level of shared consciousness. Their fabrials are tuned in pairs, much like spanreeds and are operated using vocal harmonics (i.e. songs) to evoke cymatic resonance. At the far end of this spectrum, you get Voidbringers, which hold Stormlight perfectly and have all sorts of crazy powers.

Stormfather*, that's brilliant!
It says that the Chasmfiends pupate to await a highstorm. Perhaps they are awaiting a highstorm in order to recharge their gemheart? The shell they make would be in order to protect them, and the gemheart would give them strength to live for another year or so.
Or perhaps a charged gemheart give them... other abilities.

* I didn't think a terran oath was suitable for this Rosharian discovery...  ;D
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on October 08, 2010, 06:36:03 PM
Greatshells exist throughout Roshar (if I recall), but the ones in the Shattered Plains are particularly massive. Something about the nature of spren or Highstorms in that region (perhaps as a result and/or cause of the final battle of the last Desolation) makes them able to grow much more effective gemhearts.

Sounds like a really good theory overall, but I feel we're still missing some important bits. I'm glad you've found an explanation for the spren that leave a freshly dead greatshell, I felt that was an important hint towards something. I don't entirely agree about the Shadesmar connection, but I have nothing better.

I'm not entirely sure chulls have gemhearts, Jasnah's and Sigzil's comments makes it sound like gemhearts are specific to greatshells.
Quote
There is a particular species of greatshell in the depths there. The creatures are known for their succulent flavor, and of course they have gemhearts. Not nearly as large as the ones in these chasmfiends, but still nice.
-Sigzil Chapter 40
Quote
When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought wed seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself.
-Jasnah, Chapter 36
Jasnah's comment in particular, makes it seem like there's not very many easy to find greatshells anymore.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Harakeke on October 08, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
Hey, I already posted that theory!! ;D
A part of it at least...
I think it's likely because a gem discharges over the course of weeks, whereas the longest a human can hold his stormlight is a couple of minutes.
[see prologue and sezth's comment about voidbringers]

Heh, sorry. Didn't mean to steal your thunder. This seemed like a good place to summarize what people have been speculating about Greatshells. I've noticed a lot of threads tend to digress, so I just wanted to pull everything together in one place. :)

Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on October 08, 2010, 09:33:48 PM
Greatshells exist throughout Roshar (if I recall), but the ones in the Shattered Plains are particularly massive. Something about the nature of spren or Highstorms in that region (perhaps as a result and/or cause of the final battle of the last Desolation) makes them able to grow much more effective gemhearts.

Sounds like a really good theory overall, but I feel we're still missing some important bits. I'm glad you've found an explanation for the spren that leave a freshly dead greatshell, I felt that was an important hint towards something. I don't entirely agree about the Shadesmar connection, but I have nothing better.

I'm not entirely sure chulls have gemhearts, Jasnah's and Sigzil's comments makes it sound like gemhearts are specific to greatshells.
Quote
There is a particular species of greatshell in the depths there. The creatures are known for their succulent flavor, and of course they have gemhearts. Not nearly as large as the ones in these chasmfiends, but still nice.
-Sigzil Chapter 40
Quote
When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought wed seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself.
-Jasnah, Chapter 36
Jasnah's comment in particular, makes it seem like there's not very many easy to find greatshells anymore.

Not, on your second quote: "...the last gemhearts of large size." (Emphasis mine).
This tells me that most beings have small gemhearts, likely their metabolisms deposit the gem inside their bodies using minerals gathered from highstorm-watered plants/smaller animals.
Have you heard of any large gem mining operations? I think it far more likely that gemhearts are the #1 source of gemstones on Roshar, and that nearly all of the exoskeletal creatures have them.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 09, 2010, 12:02:07 AM
I remember reading somewhere that Chulls were greatshells, but their gemhearts were so small that they were more usefull as pack animals rather that being harvested for gemhearts.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on October 09, 2010, 01:08:20 AM
Maybe on one of the illustration pages?  My copy of the book is on my computer, so the text on those pages is too small for me to read easily.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on October 09, 2010, 06:16:11 PM
Hey, I already posted that theory!! ;D
A part of it at least...
I think it's likely because a gem discharges over the course of weeks, whereas the longest a human can hold his stormlight is a couple of minutes.
[see prologue and sezth's comment about voidbringers]

Heh, sorry. Didn't mean to steal your thunder. This seemed like a good place to summarize what people have been speculating about Greatshells. I've noticed a lot of threads tend to digress, so I just wanted to pull everything together in one place. :)


Haha!  :D
S'alright, ^_^
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Pechvarry on October 09, 2010, 07:44:00 PM
This tells me that most beings have small gemhearts, likely their metabolisms deposit the gem inside their bodies using minerals gathered from highstorm-watered plants/smaller animals.

Gemstones are made of metabolized crem?  Crem is therefore poisonous to humans because they can't metabolize it.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Ari54 on October 10, 2010, 01:25:44 AM
Anyone else considered that this could be why the shattered plains exist? ;)

Wasn't the Shattered Plains once the site of a great city/nation? Maybe during a desolation something happened involving voidbinding and thunderclasts which shattered the earth and created the plateaus.

Yeah, because they grew thunderclasts out of the ground making huge freaking canyons during the attack.

It could happen! :)
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: CragN8R on October 17, 2010, 08:15:29 PM
I wonder if there is a connection between Thunderclasts and the Awakened cretures of Warbreaker? What if breath and stormlight is the same energy source altered in distinct ways by the shards located on the planets. It would solve the problem of awakening stone requiring a huge number of breaths, since Stormlight is a more available resource, especially when you consider the implications of gemhearts
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Liralyn on October 18, 2010, 06:15:21 AM
A very interesting idea...
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 18, 2010, 06:16:38 AM
Brandon has said that the magic systems of the cosmere are all based on the same philosophy...
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on October 18, 2010, 06:50:33 AM
I wonder if there is a connection between Thunderclasts and the Awakened cretures of Warbreaker? What if breath and stormlight is the same energy source altered in distinct ways by the shards located on the planets. It would solve the problem of awakening stone requiring a huge number of breaths, since Stormlight is a more available resource, especially when you consider the implications of gemhearts

Stormlight: Energy.
Gemheart: energy store.
Spren  trapped inside the stone(chasmfiend spren maybe):
Simple mind/instruction receiver.
Sounds alright. ;)
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: EvilNuff on October 18, 2010, 03:43:13 PM
Speaking of spren and thunderclasts, I noted this in my re-read:
Quote
Dalinar looked up at the hulking carcass. Tiny, near-invisible spren were floating out of the beasts body, vanishing into the air. They looked like the tongues of smoke that might come off a candle after being snuff ed. Nobody knew what kind of spren they were; you only saw them around the freshly killed bodies of greatshells.

No clue what it means but I think it bears mention.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: happyman on October 18, 2010, 06:00:36 PM
Speaking of spren and thunderclasts, I noted this in my re-read:
Quote
Dalinar looked up at the hulking carcass. Tiny, near-invisible spren were floating out of the beasts body, vanishing into the air. They looked like the tongues of smoke that might come off a candle after being snuff ed. Nobody knew what kind of spren they were; you only saw them around the freshly killed bodies of greatshells.

No clue what it means but I think it bears mention.

I think the current theory is that these Spren are part of the magic that allows the Greatshell's to survive despite their ridiculous proportions, and that the creatures of Roshar naturally capture Spren in order to survive the extremes found there.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: Miyabi on January 14, 2011, 05:47:49 AM

I wonder if Josh or Mch have the picture of the thing we drew on the chalkboard when we were coming up with names for these things.

Brandon had one name and it sounded too much like "Thundercats" so we were thinking of a new one. . . . somehow Thunderclast is better. xD  Not sure how.

Anyway, we ended up with Demok which sounded like "The Mok" . . . . . we drew a Thunderclast with Peter's head.
Title: Re: Thunderclasts *WoK Spoilers*
Post by: dhalagirl on January 16, 2011, 05:01:29 AM
Now that's an image to make the kids run away screaming.