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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: ErikHolmes on September 25, 2010, 05:46:53 AM

Title: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: ErikHolmes on September 25, 2010, 05:46:53 AM
I finally finished WoK's. What a great book!

I had a lot of thoughts/questions/ideas after reading it. I'm sure some of these have been gone over before, but who knows, maybe I noticed something that hasn't been spoken about yet...

1. Shallan possesses a Shardblade. She used it to kill her father, cutting up the Soulcaster he possessed during the fight, which is why the chain and crystal were cut.

2. The Death visions come form Talenel while he was suffering in agony in that damnation place. But not all of them, I think a few of those are just ones Brandon threw in there to throw us off. They are just the random things people said as they died that ended up getting recorded too.

3. I'm thinking that Dalinars gift from the old magic was either to make Navani love him or to become the Blackthorn.

4. I really want to know what this paragraph is hinting at:

Quote
Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did.
-Szeth, Prologue

5. Someone named Thaidakar leads the Ghostbloods and he and the previous king were in some sort of conflict, Gavilar thought he was the one that had sent Szeth.

6. Someone named Restares leads another group who King Gavilar was also in conflict with, Amaram works with or for him. Restares convinced Amaram to take Kaladin's Shards.

7. The Radiants never betrayed anyone. After the last desolation they grew tired of pointless battles for greed and power and abandoned their armor. Those who took up their armor afterward were mistaken for Radiants and are the source of their bad reputation/legends of betrayal.

8. The face Kaladin saw during the Highstorm was the Stormfather.

9. Highstorms are the source of most magic on the world and Spren are sort of the imbodiments of that magic. That's why there are no spren in Shin.

10. Is it just me or are those Aons in the picture of the Shattered Plains at the start of part two? Near the top, within the round shapes.

11. Surgebinding seems just like Allomancy to me except with stormlight as a focus/power source instead of metals. Lashings are this worlds version of pushing and pulling on metals and when filled with stormlight a surgebinder has the strength, speed and healing powers of a mistborn.

12. I thought it was very interesting that each of those cities had a glyph associated with them. It reminds me of Elantris. Could each of the cities be a focus for the different powers out there, like Elantris is for the Dor?
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Stormblessed on September 25, 2010, 02:07:56 PM
1, 2, 3, 8  are being discussed in much detail on other posts, so i'll ignore them for know.

For point 9, it is obvious that a lot of the magic is fuelled by stormlight, and stormlight comes from highstorms. The spren may be creatures from shadesmar that allow the power of stormlight to be tapped.

Point 4, I have no idea, but it somehow connects being truthless with the power of surgebinding and the vorin theology.

10: I think they are warcamps, not glyphs. They dont look like aons to me.

12: I think it is along the same lines. The cities are based on symmetry, and symmetry seems to be a big issue in the stormlight archive

5: I think King Taravangian leads the ghostbloods, but Thaidakar obviously has an important position in their society.

7: I agree there. They obviously went from heroes and demi-gods at the last desolation to be used to fight petty battles between kings, so they rebelled by giving up on their oaths. Coincidently, oath breaking seems to be a major theme in this series.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Munin on September 25, 2010, 03:18:04 PM
There are few theories on 3. My favorite is that his curse was losing his memories of his wife. Or, that he actually asked for those memories to be taken away.

For four, I think that Szeth learned Surgebinding and got a Shardblade because he believed the Voidbringers were coming back, and he would be needed to stop them. However, since the Shin culture looks down on warriors, he was punished for seeking such destructive weapons. Therefore, he holds on to them, because he thinks they're necessary, but his people rejected him for it.

For seven... I'm not sure. One of the historical records in Jasnah's notes mentions rising taxes in Urithiru, which it says are a sign that "the Radiant's true nature was beginning to show". I think it's possible that the Radiants were corrupted by Odium.

8. Keep in mind that the Stormfather is Jezrien. It's certainly possible, but it depends a lot on what he's been up to since abandoning the Oathpact.
11. I think that the enhanced strength/speed/vitality is just part of the power of Adonalsium, since it's shared by Elantrians and the Returned.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Batchman on September 27, 2010, 06:07:52 PM
Very odd idea that just popped into mind.

What if his gift was that his wife somehow returned.

And the curse is that he couldn't remember her.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 06:13:44 PM
Very odd idea that just popped into mind.

What if his gift was that his wife somehow returned.

And the curse is that he couldn't remember her.
that would suck way bad. as for 9. if that was true, then how would Szeth learn surgbinding? and WOK talks about how people can take dun spheres to a bank and they can recharge them for you, which would imply that there are other ways to get stormlight
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: happyman on September 27, 2010, 10:33:38 PM
Very odd idea that just popped into mind.

What if his gift was that his wife somehow returned.

And the curse is that he couldn't remember her.
that would suck way bad. as for 9. if that was true, then how would Szeth learn surgbinding? and WOK talks about how people can take dun spheres to a bank and they can recharge them for you, which would imply that there are other ways to get stormlight

They don't recharge them.  They trade them for infused spheres, which means they (a) check if your spheres are legit, (b) give you infused ones in exchange for the dun ones (c) infuse the spheres themselves during the next highstorm.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Tasslehoof on September 27, 2010, 11:10:52 PM
1.  I really don't think that likely... She never, ever, even hinted at possessing a shardblade.  Even though she kept the fact that she killed her father a secret for that long, I just don't think that someone would go so far out of the way to steal a "real" Soulcaster when they themselves owned a shardblade.  Even if you don't sell your shardblade, I feel like there are a lot of ways to make money just having it.

2.  I thought some of them were from Taln also.

3.  I'm not sure what you mean by "become the Blackthorn", be a good fighter?  Literally be called the Blackthorn?  I feel like he was already an amazing fighter, considering one of his sons is just as good as him.  His curse was most likely that he can't remember his wife, although that always seemed a little too obvious to me.

4.  Yeah, I'm not really sure.  I think thats one of the most talked about lines from the book, and it happens in the prologue :p

7.  I kind of thought this also, especially how as soon as the Radiants drop their Shardplate/Blades, and Dalinar follows them, the soldiers literally start killing each other over the blades.  It shows that the people who inherited the weapons/armor were not of the same virtues  as the Radiants themselves.

8.  Likely, although once again that seemed almost too obvious too :p

9.  There may be no Spren in Shinovar, but I don't remember ever hearing/seeing that there was no "magic" there either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   __
10.  No.  Aons look all have a basic similarity, I don't have my book on me, but I think it resembles this    *|.  None of those even look similar to that.  Although, there is a reoccurring theme that geometry is important in many of the cities, I don't think it pertains to warcamps that were originally very temporary in nature.  I think its Navoni that says Sadeas' street layout is very reckless, and non-geometric.  I do agree though that the warcamps look like something, its probably just convenient ways to lay it out.

11.  There are very few fantasy books/stories where one form of, or all of the magical beings possess extra strength, agility, or healing powers.  Its just a theme that people often use because those 3 abilities are extremely valuable in nearly every situation I can think of.  Lashings are similar to pushing and pulling, but its just Brandon's way of having characters who can control gravity without really just flying.  It makes it more exciting, and makes you think about how the characters perform some of their maneuvers.  Its much more impressive to me when people can jump and Lash different objects, and themselves in different directions all at the same time, rather than just flying around.

12.  Like I said, the geometry obviously has significance, we just aren't sure exactly how far it goes yet.  I'm sure we'll find out in the next novels, but its definitely interesting to think about right now.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: happyman on September 27, 2010, 11:21:05 PM
1.  I really don't think that likely... She never, ever, even hinted at possessing a shardblade.  Even though she kept the fact that she killed her father a secret for that long, I just don't think that someone would go so far out of the way to steal a "real" Soulcaster when they themselves owned a shardblade.  Even if you don't sell your shardblade, I feel like there are a lot of ways to make money just having it.

You've got the hang of most of these questions, but I'm afraid this point isn't strictly accurate.  The quotes pass quickly in a first reading (I missed them too), but once you know what you're looking for, it's obvious.  Shallan totally has a Shardblade, and she almost certainly got it from her father after killing him.

I don't have quotes with me, but there is an older thread about Shallan at the end of WoK.   Here it is (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7781.0).
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: guy on September 28, 2010, 07:45:00 PM
although it does make one wonder why she  didnt just sell her shardblade, it is said repeatedly that peo;e will do just about anything for a shardblade
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Munin on September 28, 2010, 09:34:21 PM
although it does make one wonder why she  didnt just sell her shardblade, it is said repeatedly that peo;e will do just about anything for a shardblade
How would you approach someone about that when you had a Shardblade that no one knew about, and that was quite possibly obtained by murdering your father?

Besides, if she tried to sell it, she might just get killed and have the blade stolen.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: VegasDev on September 28, 2010, 09:51:04 PM
They wouldn't have been able to sell the shardblade because her father had made enemies with many of the people that could afford to pay them enough to save the family. Even mentioning that they had a blade to sell would throw up a huge red flag that they were desperate for money and just make the family even more of a target. Shallan can't let go of the weapon because one of her brothers would probably attempt to gamble it away and the other displays serial killer traits. Hence, her burden to carry.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: ErikHolmes on September 28, 2010, 10:45:34 PM
I really think that Shallan had the Shardblade before she killed her father and that she used it to kill him. I just wonder where she got it. I wonder if she came across the kings shardblade after Szeth killed him.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: VegasDev on September 28, 2010, 11:10:03 PM
She said it was the fruit of her most heinous act or something along those lines and that act is probably killing her own father since she dwells on it so much. She drew her father (most likely) laying dead in a pool of blood. Since shardblades just kind of pass through living tissue without leaving a mark, for her to have killed her father with the blade and leave blood means she would have had to kill him with the blade but continue swinging at a dead body, although someone pointed out that his heart wouldn't have been beating and pumping blood out of the body so there may not be a pool. More likely, she killed her father with a regular blade, upon death his shardblade appeared and she took it in a panic to prevent her brothers or anyone else from getting it.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 29, 2010, 05:12:33 AM
I wonder how long it will be until we truly understand the relationship between spren and highstorms.  It's notable that Shinovar has a lack of both.  No one else seems to be mentioning "crem" though.  It's a bit a like clay, somewhat poisonous if drunk with the water, and if left alone will harden to stone.  I find it a little bit strange for it to be coming out of the sky.  I think Odium may have hijacked the Origin for his own means, there's a brief mention of highstorms becoming more powerful lately, and the Almighty's vision of the Everstorm came from the Origin as well.

In a nutshell, the discussion about Shallan's shardblade is trying to reconcile two different things.: 1) Since her father's Soulcaster was in an inside pocket of his coat, and was sheared through (a chain and a gem setting), he was likely cut with a shardblade while wearing it.  2)Shallan refers to the shardblade as the fruit of her most heinous sin.  There's a few theories that satisfy both criteria, but we don't have enough information for something concrete.

I honestly don't think Taravangian is part of the ghostbloods.  Kabsal's attempt on Jasnah's life was pointless if you consider that Taravangian's staff makes all of her meals, and that he is sharp enough to hide a huge hospital of death in the middle of his palace.  There's just no need for a clumsy assassin, if he really wanted to kill Jasnah, he could have had it done easily, without it being traced to him.  Taravangian is either part of his own group, or associated with Restares.

Dalinar's boon and curse:  I think the curse was the loss of memory of his wife.  I don't think we've had any big hints about the boon.  Az's brief talk about his family and their curses (seeing the world upside down, numb hands) and boons (a bolt of cloth) gave me the impression that regardless of what the boon is, the curse is something that sticks with you for the rest of your life.

Hoids comment at the end that there was a good reason the Alethi put light-eyed people in charge of their society was interesting too.  Are light eyes families originally descended from Radiants?  I can't remember if all the Radiants were light-eyed or not...
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Stormblessed on September 29, 2010, 05:31:50 AM
Normally having a shardblade automatically made you a light eyes. But as we can see from Szeth, this is not always the case. Szeth's eyes only change colour when he summons the blade. And Taln's eyes seem to be permanently dark. Yet I seem to recall a part (I think it is of Dalinar's vision of the radiants giving up their swords and armour) where the radients eyes were almost white.

So it is really hard to work out what is happening with the lighteyes.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: ErikHolmes on September 29, 2010, 06:13:29 AM
Its the shardplate that makes you into a lighteyes, not the blade. The Radiants all had almost white eyes because their shardplate was so much better.

I just assumed that lighteyes are in charge because they are the decedents of the people who first go their hands on the radiants shardplate.

So:

1. Radiants abandon their shardplate.
2. The shardplate stops glowing as brightly as it once did, almost immediately after being discarded by the Radiants. Is this because they discarded it or because of some outside influence?
3. The shardplate is picked up by random people who then become lighteyes. The people with shardplate quickly take over control of society and their decedents (who'd inherited their lighteyes) become the local ruling class.

None of the Heralds we've seen so far have used shardplate. Neither Kalak and Jezrien or Talenel used shardplate.

As for Dalinar, I think his trip to seek out the old magic is what made him the Blackthorn, the greatest warrior of his time. Hell, the name Blackthorn just sounds like something you'd associate with old magic.

The Dalinar chapters often talk about the Blackthorn being an unstoppable force, death itself. And maybe he is.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Kierlionn on September 29, 2010, 07:34:47 AM
Normally having a shardblade automatically made you a light eyes. But as we can see from Szeth, this is not always the case. Szeth's eyes only change colour when he summons the blade. And Taln's eyes seem to be permanently dark. Yet I seem to recall a part (I think it is of Dalinar's vision of the radiants giving up their swords and armour) where the radients eyes were almost white.

So it is really hard to work out what is happening with the lighteyes.

I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Munin on September 29, 2010, 01:41:12 PM
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: happyman on September 29, 2010, 02:35:14 PM
On Shallan's shardblade, here's the most complete quote we have on how Shallan got the darn thing:

Quote
Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn’t know how to use it. She was helpless.
Except…
Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself.
She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act.

Emphasis added.

Notice especially how that last bit, the terms "fruit of her sin" and "proceeds of her most horrific act" are parallel to each other and are used to strengthen each other.

Here are some definitions:

Fruit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fruit): 
Definition 3b : the effect or consequence of an action or operation : product, result <the fruits of our labor>

Proceeds (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proceeds?show=0&t=1285766857):
1 : the total amount brought in <the proceeds of a sale>
2 : the net amount received (as for a check or from an insurance settlement) after deduction of any discount or charges

So unless the dictionary and my basic reading skills have evaporated, Shallan is saying that she owns the blade because of the most terrible thing she ever did.  If she hadn't done the terrible action, she wouldn't have the blade.

So I would appreciate it if those of you who believe that she didn't get it as a result of killing her father would explain this.  You'll have to somehow make a case that she's not referring to her fathers murder when she talks about her most horrific act, or... well, I don't see any other options, but I could be wrong.  I'll admit that the broken fabrial is an odd point, but I can't see it overthrowing the basic meaning of the words explicitly used when we know so little about how it broke.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Kierlionn on September 29, 2010, 03:28:01 PM
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Tasslehoof on September 29, 2010, 04:20:16 PM
I stand corrected, it appears I totally missed the subtle hints that she possessed a blade.  Does anyone have chapters, or better yet pages with the quotes?  I'd like to reread those parts, but I don't want to wade through the rest of the book at this point in time.

Sorry if I came off as harsh, I was so convinced that she didn't have a shardblade that I didn't even think that anything she said was hinting at it.

Also, she is the first female character, other than some of the Radiants in Dalinar's visions, that has a shardblade right?  I didn't miss a bunch of stuff did I? D:
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 29, 2010, 05:09:31 PM
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.

I agree with you on the characters getting the facts mixed up.  Also, I recall Szeth mentioning that it was a special characteristic of his blade.
Quote
The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.
Here's what Kaladin thought:
Quote
If he took that Blade, he’d become one of them. His eyes would even change, if the stories were right. Though the Blade glistened in the light, clean of the murders it had performed, for a moment it seemed red to him.
I don't think we've seen any indication at all that shardplate will change your eye color.
When Teft gives the recuperating Kaladin the diamond spheres while he's recuperating:
Quote
Kaladin’s eyes snapped open, and they leaked light too, faintly colored amber.
Not sure if the it's the light or the eyes that are amber in that sentence.
Edit: found some more useful quotes from Dalinar's flashback.
Quote
The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight? His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and he had short black curly hair. His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol—emblazoned across the front of the breastplate—still gave off a faint blue light.
  If the armor glows blue/sapphire, are they always a Windrunner?
Quote
The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm.
...The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light. She smiled and turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand as she rushed to aid her companion.

Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

The Shallan thread has most of the quotes where she mentioned the shardblade in it, but it's indicated as early as her third chapter in the book:
Quote
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Stormblessed on September 30, 2010, 02:15:40 AM
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.

I agree with you on the characters getting the facts mixed up.  Also, I recall Szeth mentioning that it was a special characteristic of his blade.
Quote
The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.
Here's what Kaladin thought:
Quote
If he took that Blade, he’d become one of them. His eyes would even change, if the stories were right. Though the Blade glistened in the light, clean of the murders it had performed, for a moment it seemed red to him.
I don't think we've seen any indication at all that shardplate will change your eye color.
When Teft gives the recuperating Kaladin the diamond spheres while he's recuperating:
Quote
Kaladin’s eyes snapped open, and they leaked light too, faintly colored amber.
Not sure if the it's the light or the eyes that are amber in that sentence.
Edit: found some more useful quotes from Dalinar's flashback.
Quote
The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight? His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and he had short black curly hair. His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol—emblazoned across the front of the breastplate—still gave off a faint blue light.
  If the armor glows blue/sapphire, are they always a Windrunner?
Quote
The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm.
...The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light. She smiled and turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand as she rushed to aid her companion.

Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

The Shallan thread has most of the quotes where she mentioned the shardblade in it, but it's indicated as early as her third chapter in the book:
Quote
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
Its possible that the light coloured eyes may have come from the stormlight, not the shardblade. But if that was the case, there would unlikely to be rumours about darkeyes turning light because some darkeyes would surely be able to win a blade, and then prove the theory wrong. And Szeths quote above implies that shardblades can turn the eyes light. However his swords unique ability can be taken both ways: only his sword turns his eyes light, or only his sword keeps his eyes dark until sword is summoned.
So either way it is impossible to tell.

I think its very likely that the shardblade was a result of killing Shallan's father. No other sin would be greater to Shallan than killing her own father.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: ErikHolmes on September 30, 2010, 02:26:51 AM
Except it sounds like she didn't like her father much.

Maybe she did something even worse in order to get a shardblade to kill her father with? Maybe she did something that resulted in her family being in the trouble it is?

But that's a lot of maybe. You are all probably right and she killed her father and took the blade from him. I forgot about the pic of her father in a pool of blood.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: happyman on September 30, 2010, 05:30:25 PM
Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

I guess how likely this is depends on how Shardblades respond to being held by someone who is not their owner.  Is it even possible to steal a shardblade?  If you grab it, do you claim it, or what?  These are good questions.

Call me pedantic, though, but I still feel that the words I cited are strong evidence in favor of the simplest scenario of Shallan killing her father through mundane means and then getting the blade.  This simple cause-effect relationship is well-established in-world and is one that Shallan would know about.  It agrees with the simplest interpretation of the image she made of her father.   Everything else requires introducing new rules or speculating well beyond the evidence or weakening the simple statement I cited as evidence (and yes, your proposed alternate interpretations are not impossible, just weaker, because they don't match the usual meaning of the words).  I just considered that quote the best evidence (it's really close to being the only evidence of what actually happened) and wanted it accounted for.

As for the fabrial---we don't know what happened to it.  And that's the rub-we don't know!  It's an empty spot.  But emptiness isn't evidence, just room for more speculation.

As for whether killing her father would be considered a terrible sin---well, a few points to consider:

(1) She calls herself a murderer when referring to her father's death.  No rationalizations behind that word.  The Spren accepts it, too.
(2) She reacts badly to the death of four people who were ready to rape and kill her, and whom she had never met.
(3) She feels tremendous guilt over her families situation and her place in it.
Title: Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
Post by: Tasslehoof on September 30, 2010, 07:50:25 PM

I guess how likely this is depends on how Shardblades respond to being held by someone who is not their owner.  Is it even possible to steal a shardblade?  If you grab it, do you claim it, or what?  These are good questions.

Call me pedantic, though, but I still feel that the words I cited are strong evidence in favor of the simplest scenario of Shallan killing her father through mundane means and then getting the blade.  This simple cause-effect relationship is well-established in-world and is one that Shallan would know about.  It agrees with the simplest interpretation of the image she made of her father.   Everything else requires introducing new rules or speculating well beyond the evidence or weakening the simple statement I cited as evidence (and yes, your proposed alternate interpretations are not impossible, just weaker, because they don't match the usual meaning of the words).  I just considered that quote the best evidence (it's really close to being the only evidence of what actually happened) and wanted it accounted for.

As for the fabrial---we don't know what happened to it.  And that's the rub-we don't know!  It's an empty spot.  But emptiness isn't evidence, just room for more speculation.

As for whether killing her father would be considered a terrible sin---well, a few points to consider:

(1) She calls herself a murderer when referring to her father's death.  No rationalizations behind that word.  The Spren accepts it, too.
(2) She reacts badly to the death of four people who were ready to rape and kill her, and whom she had never met.
(3) She feels tremendous guilt over her families situation and her place in it.

I agree with you 100%.  It seems very unlikely (although possible) that Shallan killed her father with the Shardblade.  Every quote we have about the events, which are very few and far between, give us evidence that she killed him in a "normal" fashion (blood pooling on the floor, doesn't happen if you're killed by a shardblade AND even if you slice someone up with one after they are dead, it still wouldn't be "pools" of blood).  Really the only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense is the breaking of the soulcaster itself.  It does sound like the shardblade cut the fabrial, but theres always other possibilities, obviously the shardblade cuts through everything easily, but other things can cut through a soulcaster as well.