Timewaster's Guide Archive

Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Never on September 23, 2010, 12:13:18 AM

Title: What are the words?
Post by: Never on September 23, 2010, 12:13:18 AM
“You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”


Later we're told this is a quote from the Way of Kings, but we're never given the quote.

Any ideas on what they might be?
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Stormblessed on September 23, 2010, 12:26:43 AM
I Surrender.

Or

I Obey

Or

I swear fealty

or

I trust you

They are all sort of the same. Basically I think it has something to do with putting your life/trust in another's hands, whether or not you trust them completely.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Munin on September 23, 2010, 12:53:27 AM
It could also be one of the ideals of the Knights Radiant.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: ehyde on September 23, 2010, 08:22:50 AM
It could have something to do with the vision's command to "speak again the ancient oaths," which seems like it would refer to the Ideals of the Radiants, but I suppose it could refer to something else entirely.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Pechvarry on September 23, 2010, 05:23:06 PM
I could be wrong, but I think what the OP means is "what made them think it's from the Way of Kings?"

timeline:
1st: Dalinar is informed of his brother's dying words
2nd: Jasnah discovers it's from The Way of Kings

so.... what quote did Jasnah find?!

I expect it was something where Nahodan simply said something in his narrative where he included the line.  Something like "It's a leader's duty to his people to find the most important words he could say" or some such.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Munin on September 23, 2010, 05:53:35 PM
It could have something to do with the vision's command to "speak again the ancient oaths," which seems like it would refer to the Ideals of the Radiants, but I suppose it could refer to something else entirely.
Since the vision says one of the Ideals right after saying "speak again the ancient oaths", I think it's pretty clear that's what he means.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Never on September 24, 2010, 08:00:13 AM
I don't believe that it's going to be the Knight Oaths. The Way of Kings seems to be a book for both the Knights and non-Knights.

I could be wrong, but I think what the OP means is "what made them think it's from the Way of Kings?"

No, I said what I meant.

Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Melriken on January 22, 2011, 03:34:53 AM
When I first read the book I was expecting it to be "I forgive you." and assumed we would find that the king's brother was holding a grudge against another high ranking member of the kingdom and the king knew that his kingdom would collapse if these two continued to fight.

This almost fits Sadeas, however the falling out between them didn't happen until the king's death, so I no longer think that.

My theory is that the words are an oath to the Almighty and will likely return the Dawnblades to humanity for use against the Voidbringers.  Something similar to the Christian idea of accepting Christ into one's heart and life.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Melriken on January 22, 2011, 03:35:47 AM
err, sorry, didn't mean to Necro that thread, forgot that I had found it with google not by scanning the first page.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: socom-delta on January 22, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
the line in the OP is ITSELF the quote from the Way of Kings.

The question should be: what are those words? THAT is never actually expressed in the book iirc.

-edit-

THIS is the quote from the Way of Kings:

"...must find the most important words a man can say….”

THAT is the quote from the book; what those words are that the quote in the book refers to is not firmly expressed.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Ari54 on January 26, 2011, 12:17:42 AM
My theory is that the words are an oath to the Almighty and will likely return the Dawnblades to humanity for use against the Voidbringers.  Something similar to the Christian idea of accepting Christ into one's heart and life.

I really don't think so. Brandon is a really good author, and this sounds like it'd be really hard and not worth pulling off in a book, because it's essentially a trope of all sorts of terrible fantasy that swearing an oath grants you powers.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Rew on January 26, 2011, 03:15:30 AM
Unless I am completely mistaken that trope has a large presence already in this book/series- 
i.e. Kaladin reviving from near death and jumping the bridge after accepting/saying/making an oath of  the Second Ideal...-
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: KhyEllie on January 26, 2011, 03:21:15 AM
I go along with the Radiant Ideals theory. Speaking (and believing) the Ideals is what seems to make a Knight Radiant, and I would suspect that the most important thing that can happen at this point is to bring the Radiants back, what with the world coming to an end and all. And bringing them back would only happen by speaking the Ideals.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Ari54 on January 28, 2011, 12:16:35 AM
Unless I am completely mistaken that trope has a large presence already in this book/series- 
i.e. Kaladin reviving from near death and jumping the bridge after accepting/saying/making an oath of  the Second Ideal...-

I think there's a slight difference between having full access to powers you've been using all along, and a magic sword appearing out of nowhere without already being bound to you. :P
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Melriken on January 28, 2011, 01:45:13 AM
Unless I am completely mistaken that trope has a large presence already in this book/series- 
i.e. Kaladin reviving from near death and jumping the bridge after accepting/saying/making an oath of  the Second Ideal...-
I think there's a slight difference between having full access to powers you've been using all along, and a magic sword appearing out of nowhere without already being bound to you. :P
who said it would make a sword appear out of nowhere?

Perhaps the Oaths cause a Shardblade to transform into a Dawnblade, or the extra power lets you get to Urithu, where the Dawnblades currently rest, etc.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Rew on January 28, 2011, 08:44:09 AM
Yeah, sorry for the ambiguity. I wasn't defending the theory that the oath would grant new dawnshards to mankind (something I personally don't think will happen based on the information we have from book 1).  I was simply pointing out that the trope of saying an oath and immediately receiving greater power, which was denigrated as the hallmark of "terrible fantasy," was an integral part to how Brandon set up the magic system of the Radiants (as far as we can tell by Kaladin's leveling-up by declaring the Second Oath).   :)
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Ari54 on January 30, 2011, 01:52:15 AM
I honestly didn't think it was such a huge stretch for the difference between Kaladin before the battle and Kaladin during to be more about determination and practice (and dramatic license) than about magical words, but if the oaths really are somehow magical than paint me disappointed.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: EvilNuff on February 01, 2011, 02:12:58 AM
I honestly didn't think it was such a huge stretch for the difference between Kaladin before the battle and Kaladin during to be more about determination and practice (and dramatic license) than about magical words, but if the oaths really are somehow magical than paint me disappointed.

It is explicitly clear that saying the words had an effect:
Quote
He didn’t know what had happened to him, what had gone on with Syl and the words in his head. It seemed that Stormlight worked better for him now. It had been more potent, more powerful. But now it was gone, and he was so tired. Drained. He’d pushed himself, and Bridge Four, too far. Too hard.
Really to me after reading WoK twice through, it seems clear to me that the most important words are the ideals of the Knights Radiant.  In my opinion there can be no other answer.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Ari54 on February 01, 2011, 09:56:47 AM
Right, I'm not objecting to words having an effect so much as whether there's a good explanation for that. (Because so often this sort of thing stays unexplained and comes off as bad writing) It seems that there's room enough for the difference to be explained later when Brandon has some time to zoom in on the magic. :)
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: happyman on February 02, 2011, 02:16:12 AM
I'm not disappointed at all.  Don't forget, the Words came from inside him, from his deepest character.  Saying them, giving them conscious shape, is a powerful thing.  You don't think just anybody would be affected that way, would you?
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: andygal on February 02, 2011, 09:11:14 AM
Knowing Brandon, I don't think you have to worry about it not getting an explanation. Brandon always  thinks his magic systems through throughly and they always have well-defined rules.

And I thought it was an awesome scene. Especially with the ensuing epic ass kicking.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Stormblessed on February 02, 2011, 10:38:33 PM
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: kari-no-sugata on February 03, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
I have this idea that Honor's power (which should still be in effect) is somewhat contract based, if that makes some kind of sense.

For example, we have the "Oathpact" - maybe in return for power/immortality they had to go through hell. Maybe that's why the ones who didn't go back to hell left their super swords? Maybe so long as one was in hell, parts of the contract would still be valid?

Kaladin's "Words" (note the official-like capital letter) aren't quite so powerful, but they still indicate some kind of commitment - and in exchange Kaladin's power becomes more refined. I doubt there's anything inherently magical about the words - more about setting up an exchange, or something along those lines. However, I think Syl would have had to have been there.

Anyway. Just an idea. It may even be partially correct. I certainly would expect there to be much more to it.... which we'll find out in later books. This is going to be a long series, so we're not going to find out everything in the first book.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: happyman on February 03, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
My guess is that this relates to the Cognitive realm, and that aspect of the powers.  When you say something, you also think it; you think it *very* clearly.  Kind of like Awakening.  You have to say something to Awaken, you have to say it correctly, but you also have to think it very clearly.  The Words may be some similar concept; a focus for something that has much deeper meanings and connections to Shadesmar.

I like the idea of a contract, of Kaladin binding himself to a mission he has always dedicated his life to.  It sounds like the kind of thing Honor would like.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: andygal on February 04, 2011, 09:04:57 PM
oooh, I hadn't really thought of the Words as a contract before,but that does make sense. 

Especially in light of Kaladin and Syl's relationship, being like a contract/exchange, she gets intelligence,and he gets awesome superpowers. 

Seems like there's a  lot of contracts going on.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: kari-no-sugata on February 05, 2011, 08:08:26 PM
My guess is that this relates to the Cognitive realm, and that aspect of the powers.  When you say something, you also think it; you think it *very* clearly.  Kind of like Awakening.  You have to say something to Awaken, you have to say it correctly, but you also have to think it very clearly.  The Words may be some similar concept; a focus for something that has much deeper meanings and connections to Shadesmar.

I like the idea of a contract, of Kaladin binding himself to a mission he has always dedicated his life to.  It sounds like the kind of thing Honor would like.

Glad you like my idea. Will be interesting to see how things turn out.

Yep, it will also be interesting to see how this relates to the Cognitive realm too. I suspect we'll be going much deeper into magic systems / the Cosmere in this series than in previous books, given that we have a lot of researchers world-wide who have been doing advanced research for a very long time.

I also saw some similarities with Awakening too. Brandon has said there's some universal underpinnings in the Cosmere and that similar aspects of magic will work in similar ways across all worlds (or something like that). Kaladin "breathing" in Stormlight felt a bit like taking Breaths and had some similar effects on him, and you have to expel that Stormlight to drive your magical abilities. So while Stormlight is not the same as Breaths, there seems to be some similar underpinnings.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: andygal on February 05, 2011, 09:22:38 PM
It also reminds me a lot of Vin drawing in the mists, the breathes them in and then they swirl around her, oozing back out of her skin, especially when she exhales.

Definitely not a co-incidence, the Stormlight is clearly the power/"body" of a Shard, most likely Honor.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Melriken on February 06, 2011, 09:03:00 AM
It also reminds me a lot of Vin drawing in the mists, the breathes them in and then they swirl around her, oozing back out of her skin, especially when she exhales.

Definitely not a co-incidence, the Stormlight is clearly the power/"body" of a Shard, most likely Honor.
There is a chapter Epigraph in Part 3 that says the City of the Knights Radiant couldn't be built in Alethkar, but had to be built "farther west, closer to Honor".

The Origin is in the east, the Highstorms sweep east to west.

I don't think that Honor is the source of the Highstorms, despite the use of Stormfather as a title for the leader of the Heralds of the Almighty.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: old aggie on February 12, 2011, 04:29:30 AM
I pictured Kaladin's speaking the Radiant's Oath as something that "came into focus" within him at the time - like a paradigm shift, when things that previously made no sense to you are turned upside-down and suddenly fall into place. When that happened for him, the Words (I do think this is what Gavilar meant) welled up within him, similar to inspiration or (sort of) prophecy, where it's partly under your own control and partly Something Greater guiding you. Because Kaladin has a destiny, this interpretation just seems right, to me.

(I enjoy reading all your theories! So imaginative!)
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: CabbyHat on February 12, 2011, 06:53:58 AM
I pictured Kaladin's speaking the Radiant's Oath as something that "came into focus" within him at the time - like a paradigm shift, when things that previously made no sense to you are turned upside-down and suddenly fall into place.

So kind of like what happens when you figure out what's happening in one of Brandon's books?  ;D
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Juan Dolor on February 26, 2011, 05:15:48 PM
“You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”


Later we're told this is a quote from the Way of Kings, but we're never given the quote.

Any ideas on what they might be?

"You're right, dear."
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: CabbyHat on February 26, 2011, 06:34:15 PM
“You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”


Later we're told this is a quote from the Way of Kings, but we're never given the quote.

Any ideas on what they might be?

"You're right, dear."

Well OBVIOUSLY.  :D
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: Anita on March 13, 2011, 10:08:25 AM
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.

I just reread this passage tonight. I would agree with your comment. Up to that point, Kaladin had been going back and forth between his drive to protect and his failures to successfully protect people, almost to the point that not trying was better than failing. He also had the trouble of reconciling the duality of being a healer and killing to protect.

He took his level in badass when he surrendered his fear and despair and accepted the power (and accompanying responsibility) on behalf of those he could protect with it. Maybe his conflictedness was acting to constrict the flow or utilization of the power.

As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: CabbyHat on March 14, 2011, 04:08:26 PM
As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)

One hundred per cent with you there. ^_^ On my first reread I actually cued up a playlist of epic music to go with that scene. It seemed to demand it.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: happyman on March 14, 2011, 04:43:22 PM
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.

I just reread this passage tonight. I would agree with your comment. Up to that point, Kaladin had been going back and forth between his drive to protect and his failures to successfully protect people, almost to the point that not trying was better than failing. He also had the trouble of reconciling the duality of being a healer and killing to protect.

He took his level in badass when he surrendered his fear and despair and accepted the power (and accompanying responsibility) on behalf of those he could protect with it. Maybe his conflictedness was acting to constrict the flow or utilization of the power.

As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)

I almost agree with this statement.  I believe that Kaladin actually had to say the words (in his native language, no less) to form a sufficiently powerful physical focus for the effect to work, kind of like Awakening.  On the other hand, if he hadn't accepted their meaning, I doubt it would have worked either.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: anthonypeers on March 14, 2011, 10:39:47 PM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: douglas on March 15, 2011, 12:37:57 AM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: anthonypeers on March 15, 2011, 12:43:07 AM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: happyman on March 15, 2011, 03:33:13 PM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: anthonypeers on March 15, 2011, 03:41:40 PM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.

Sure, I didn't say they're wrong about everything. Just that a lot of magical stuff doesn't seem to work the same in Shinovar. No highstorms, no spren, they're not familiar with soulcasting, etc...
Title: Re: What are the words?
Post by: happyman on March 16, 2011, 05:11:15 PM
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.

Sure, I didn't say they're wrong about everything. Just that a lot of magical stuff doesn't seem to work the same in Shinovar. No highstorms, no spren, they're not familiar with soulcasting, etc...

All true.  But from Szeth's viewpoints and from the prelude, we know that have less inaccurate memories of where the Heralds go when they die.  So the Shin being well-informed about death, despite not knowing anything else, might actually hold water.