Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Sir_Read-a-Lot on September 12, 2010, 12:32:27 AM
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I thought I'd try to catalog all the information we have about the Shards of Adonalsium in one place.
The format is:
Name - Shard - World - Status (alive/dead)
Italicized data is unconfirmed.
Here goes:
Ati - Ruin - Scadrial - dead
Leras - Preservation - Scadrial - dead
Sazed - Ruin/Preservation - Scadrial - alive
Aona - ?? - Sel - dead
Skai - ?? - Sel - dead
Rayse - Odium - Roshar - alive
Bavadin - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - Cultivation - Roshar - ??
Elithanathile (Almighty) - ?? - Roshar - dead
?? - Endowment - Nalthis - alive
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
?? - ?? - ?? - ??
Is there anything I'm missing?
I didn't put Hoid in there, because I don't think he has a shard.
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Was looking up this recently and Warbreaker's world is Nalthis.
Question that is somewhat related to this, is the world in Way of Kings called Roshar?
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Question that is somewhat related to this, is the world in Way of Kings called Roshar?
Yes.
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Cultivation is a Roshar Shard. And we're not sure whether the Almighty and the Stormfather are the same entity. Rayse/Odium is also a Roshar Shard.
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I was under the impression that "Stormfather" was just another name for Jezrien.
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I was under the impression that "Stormfather" was just another name for Jezrien.
I thought that the Stormfather was a Shard, and it was highly implied in my opinion that the Stormfather and the Almighty were one and the same. It just made sense to me that Dalinar would have his visions during highstorms if this was true... because highstorms are the Stormfather's legacy on Roshar, and we know from the end that the visions are from the Almighty.
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Cultivation is a Roshar Shard. And we're not sure whether the Almighty and the Stormfather are the same entity. Rayse/Odium is also a Roshar Shard.
I disagree slightly. Cultivation is mentioned by the visions (Almighty), but I don't think this means that she is necessarily a Roshar Shard. Clearly, Rayse can travel between worlds, so clearly there is some communication between them.
The same is true for Odium, but even more so, because we know he has traveled between worlds.
I do agree that for them to be Roshar shards is highly likely, though. Except that if Cultivation and Odium are Roshar Shards, why is the local religion monotheistic?
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It mentions in the book that Elithanathile is the Almighty's name. Could just be a creation of the Ardents though.
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I do agree that for them to be Roshar shards is highly likely, though. Except that if Cultivation and Odium are Roshar Shards, why is the local religion monotheistic?
I'd say it's because Cultivation's influence is concentrated in Shinovar. The rest of the world was forced to focus on the Almighty/Odium conflict to survive, and Cultivation took one look at that situation and went as far away from it as possible without leaving the world, ending up in the far west to induce the present-day overwhelmingly peaceful farming-focused culture of the Shin. Shinovar ended up with Cultivation as the dominant influence and was isolated from the rest of the world. Everywhere else had little connection with Cultivation's claimed domain and focused almost exclusively on The Almighty as a god figure and Odium and his Voidbringers as a devil/satan figure, with the eternal war between the two as the primary focus of the entire culture.
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Although if Cultivation is the focus of the Shin religion, does that mean the whole "stone is sacred" thing came from her? And if so, what does that tell us?
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During Lightsong's flashback near the end of Warbreaker, he says a voice offered him the choice to Return. I'd take this as decent evidence that Endowment was alive at least up until shortly before the book starts.
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It mentions in the book that Elithanathile is the Almighty's name. Could just be a creation of the Ardents though.
Could you find the reference, please?
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Hardcover pg. 119
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Thanks. The page also indicates that his Shard might be Change, or Transformation.
I do notice that his name is symmetrical. That seems to be his signature, just like 16 was Preservation's signature.
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Something I'm curious about is what Aona's and Skai's shards were. The part 2 epigraphs give me the impression that they were particularly dangerous to Rayse.
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About p119 and Elithanathile:
"a heretic wielding one of the most sacred powers in all the world. The power of change itself, the power by which the Almighty had created Roshar. He had another name, allowed to pass only the lips of ardents. Elithanathile. He Who Transforms."
It is possible that this is referring to Adonalsium, which is certainly the power by which the Almighty had created Roshar.
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I find it highly unlikely that the Almighty's actual name is Elithanathile. Why? Because if you look, the Ardents have changed every last one of the Herald's names so that it's either a palindrome or closer to one than it was.
In the prelude, we have Kalak (which, admittedly, is already a palindrome), Jezrien, Talenel, and Ishar.
In the prologue, we have Kelek, Jerezereh, Talenelat, and Ishi. We also get a quick comment about a Herald named Shalash.
I realize this is from Szeth's point of view, and therefore could just be something from Shin culture, but Szeth specifically calls them the Ten Heralds from ancient Vorinism.
The Almighty's name could certainly be related to Elithanathile, but I don't think that it is that exactly.
I was also under the impression that Stormfather was reffering to Jezrien. I'll try to find the relevant quote.
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How 'bout Elithan as a name?
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Elithanathile for the Almighty is absolutely fine, as the reason names aren't quite symmetrical on Roshar is because it would be heretical to Vorinism, and tantamount to claiming divinity. But it's probably not the name of the shardholder anymore than Ruin was Ati's real name- it's probably just a fourth name that the "Almighty" picked up in addition to his real name and shard name.
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Random Theory, slightly related to the topic:
Hoid is somehow rooted in why Adonalsium split into Shards. The "element" that was mentioned in the part 2 epigraphs is either the element that split Adonalsium, or the centerpiece that held them together, and can be used to rejoin them.
And no, I don't think that the "element" is the black crystal that the king gave to Szeth. Besides being random and mysterious, there's no connection, and it makes no sense for Hoid to have "protected" it by giving it to the king whom many people wanted dead.
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Something I'm curious about is what Aona's and Skai's shards were. The part 2 epigraphs give me the impression that they were particularly dangerous to Rayse.
If a Seon is a splinter of a Shard, the Shard is probably Love. Seons are basically pure love. Or maybe Loyalty, since Seo means Loyalty.
If we follow an analogy to Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth, then the other Shard would be Obedience. Maybe Fear, but probably Obedience. That's more of a guess though.
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I'd probably go with Structure (rigid hierarchy, all manifestations of the Dor).
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Is it possible that not all of the shards are held by someone? Or can other species (koloss, kandra, various animals) hold shards as well?
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I would think that sentience is required to hold a shard (access to all three realms, spiritual, cognitive and physical). That is likely the only requirement.
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I thought that the Stormfather was a Shard, and it was highly implied in my opinion that the Stormfather and the Almighty were one and the same. It just made sense to me that Dalinar would have his visions during highstorms if this was true... because highstorms are the Stormfather's legacy on Roshar, and we know from the end that the visions are from the Almighty.
It is specifically stated by Sigzil that Stormfather was another name for Jezrien. It's in Chapter 55 (pg 768 on the UK version)
"Jenzien?" Malop said, standing and scratching his head. "Who's that?"
"You call him the Stormfather, here in Althkar," Sigzil said. "Or Jezerezeh'Elin. He was the King of Heralds. Master of storms, bringer of water and life, known for his fury and his temper, but also for his mercy."
It does sound here that Jenzien has some great power. Whether it is something connected with one of the ten essences, or a splinter of the shard of the Almighty (whatever the shard is called), I can only guess. But maybe this implies that the face seen in the high storm by Kaladin is Jenzien. In addition, the voice Kaladin hears in his dream where he is riding the high storm (it tells him that the oathpact has ended and Odium reigns) may also belong to Jenzien.
Thoughts anyone?
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I think the Face in the Highstorm is the Face of the Almighty, but that the Highstorms are part of the Automatic powers left over after the Almighty's Death. IE: the Raidents, and the Highstorms are both Effects of the Almighty's shard, and possibly part of the Defense against Odium.
i believe the Reason they call the Stormfather Jezerezh'elin is because they've mixed the terms and effects of their religions up a bit.
in essence, the 10 Heralds, being the only ones with Names, have been ascribed more and more importance, and have been mixed into the Effects of the 3 shards, since the Humans on Roshan are only aware of The Allmighty, and the Voidbringers.
One question i have, who is the Nightwatcher? she's described with a Female Gender, while both Odium, and the Allmighty are described/shown to be Male. Could she be the 3rd Shard Cultivation?
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One question i have, who is the Nightwatcher? she's described with a Female Gender, while both Odium, and the Allmighty are described/shown to be Male. Could she be the 3rd Shard Cultivation?
I'm pretty convinced she is. The Almighty says at the end, that Cultivation is much better at seeing the future than he, and it is mentioned several times in the book that Vorinism despises all forms of future telling, but that in the Western countries, it is more accepted, due to their belief in the Old Magic.
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could she be the one that hoids letters are adressed to? and if all it takes to hold a shard is sentience would nightblood count?
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i guess nightblood could TECHNICALLY hold a shard... but i don't know how she/it would get one
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i guess nightblood could TECHNICALLY hold a shard... but i don't know how she/it would get one
Plus, everyone would be screwed if that happened.
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i guess nightblood could TECHNICALLY hold a shard... but i don't know how she/it would get one
Plus, everyone would be screwed if that happened.
I don't know if nightblood itself would be a shard, but it could possibly be a splinter of a shard (though of course I have no way of knowing if the shards on the planet of Warbreaker are whole or have been splintered).
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Brandon has already confirmed that we have encountered splinters in Warbreaker in the form of the Returned.
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Brandon has already confirmed that we have encountered splinters in Warbreaker in the form of the Returned.
That does make more sense than Nightblood being a splinter, I must admit.
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i guess nightblood could TECHNICALLY hold a shard... but i don't know how she/it would get one
Plus, everyone would be screwed if that happened.
Hahahaha! Yeah, Odium would REALLY be in trouble, then! :)
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I would like to insert here that we don't know all the shards involved in Roshar. There are FOUR involved. Odium, the Almighty, Cultivation and an unknown one.
Odium wasn't one of the three that created Roshar in the first place; those would be the Almighty, Cultivation, and the unknown. Odium came after the fact, as it were, and has presumably been really messing around. For a long time, apparently.
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I would like to insert here that we don't know all the shards involved in Roshar. There are FOUR involved. Odium, the Almighty, Cultivation and an unknown one.
Odium wasn't one of the three that created Roshar in the first place; those would be the Almighty, Cultivation, and the unknown. Odium came after the fact, as it were, and has presumably been really messing around. For a long time, apparently.
Bavadin, perhaps?
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Is there any particular reason that we don't believe Hoid has a Shard?
I'm trying to think of some other explanation for the fact that he:
1. Planet-hops
2. Is potentially immortal
3. is on the same level/interacts with all the other Shardholders
4. was important enough to be at the Shattering
5. has the power to reconstitute Adonalsium (if that is, in fact, what he is trying to do)
It seems to me that he might be holding on to a Shard that we haven't been introduced to because it hasn't been important thus far.
Any ideas?
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I lean towards the idea that Hoid does NOT hold a shard for 2 simple reasons:
1) He's still walking around. Every other Shard holder we've encountered very quickly expanded into something that was more like a cloud consciousness and had no (humanoid) body. It's -possible- that Hoid's shard is unique in that respect, but I doubt it. Which leads me to point..
2) Hoid IS unique. I believe Brandon is creative enough that he doesn't need to fall back on the "Shard Holder" idea to explan every powerful being in the Cosmere. I like to believe that although Hoid was present during the shattering, he didn't actually get a shard, and his power has more to do with a deep understanding on how the Cosmere work. Basically he knows how to manipulate the natural forces of the Cosmere to his own ends.
I have more reasons to think this things about Hoid, including the wording of several quotes, but I'm going to hold off posting them for a different thread.
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"I've many." The man took Kaladin's hand. "I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock."
"A pretty one, I hope."
"A beautiful one," the man said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it"
I posted this quote up on 17th shard, The second part makes me think he held one at one point and time, and then lost it.
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Is it possible to try and assign numbers to the shards? Each world seems to have magic numbers. Mistborn is the most obvious, with Preservation liking the number 16. The number 10 is big in the Stormlight Archive. And after reading Warbreaker again, it seems like the number 5 shows up a lot: the five scholars, the five visions, Returned are of the fifth Heightening, and a few other places.
Would it be crazy to guess that Endowment is the 5th shard, The Almighty of WoK is the 10th, and Preservation was the 16th?
The only problem I see is that Ruin never had a number manifested (but that could just be because Preservation had more contact with humans), and on other worlds with multiple shards it'd be hard to decide what numbers are special, and which shard sponsors them.
I can't think of any numbers from Elantris either. Can anyone else help me out?
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"I've many." The man took Kaladin's hand. "I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock."
"A pretty one, I hope."
"A beautiful one," the man said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it"
I posted this quote up on 17th shard, The second part makes me think he held one at one point and time, and then lost it.
This makes plenty of sense. I can't believe I didn't pick up on the "named for a rock" thing. That sounds like he was named for a shard, just like how Ati became known as simply ruin. Although how he lost it or how it became worthless isn't so clear. We haven't seen if a shard holder is even capable of giving up their power yet. But it would explain why Hoid is so well versed in the cosmere.
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"I've many." The man took Kaladin's hand. "I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock."
"A pretty one, I hope."
"A beautiful one," the man said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it"
I posted this quote up on 17th shard, The second part makes me think he held one at one point and time, and then lost it.
This makes plenty of sense. I can't believe I didn't pick up on the "named for a rock" thing. That sounds like he was named for a shard, just like how Ati became known as simply ruin. Although how he lost it or how it became worthless isn't so clear. We haven't seen if a shard holder is even capable of giving up their power yet. But it would explain why Hoid is so well versed in the cosmere.
It does sound like Hoid is special in some way. That the shard reacted differently to him than the others. Which might be why he is so different from all the other shardholders, and might be why he may have lost the shard (but there is nothing there implying that he did from what I can see).
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perhaps Hoid did not take the shards personality upon himself, and if it was a shard, how did it become completely worthless?
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perhaps Hoid did not take the shards personality upon himself, and if it was a shard, how did it become completely worthless?
Maybe the shard was something completely at odds with his nature.
Y'know... "Straightforwardness", or "Full Disclosure" or something.
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Whichever Shard Hoid had/ has is probably the 4th one on Roshar, he is a PoV in this series.
perhaps Hoid did not take the shards personality upon himself, and if it was a shard, how did it become completely worthless?
Maybe the shard was something completely at odds with his nature.
Y'know... "Straightforwardness", or "Full Disclosure" or something.
Wouldn't matter Hoid says Ati was kind once.
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The rock could've been Adonalsium. /back at the "Hoid broke the universe" theory again.
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alternatively, it could have just been a rock, a special rock maybe, but still just a rock. I doubt that Hoid had a shard, besides I dont think the shards are rocks, atium was metal, preservation was mist, endowment is colors, seons on sel. and when sazed took the power of ruin and preservation it wasnt like he found two glowing rocks on the ground
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Maybe this has something to do with Tien. He could tell the difference between an ordinary rock and a special rock. :P
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it could have been the same rock that Rock was named after :D...there do seem to be a lot of rocks in this story, so maybe they are more important than I thought
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It could also---get this---be a part of his backstory that we haven't heard yet!
I know this is an extreme suggestion, but I just wanted to toss it out there.
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"I've many." The man took Kaladin's hand. "I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock."
"A pretty one, I hope."
"A beautiful one," the man said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it"
I posted this quote up on 17th shard, The second part makes me think he held one at one point and time, and then lost it.
He says he began life as a thought and concept. Is it possible that he wasn't originally human like the others appeared to be, but some creature from Shadesmar?
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He says he began life as a thought and concept. Is it possible that he wasn't originally human like the others appeared to be, but some creature from Shadesmar?
I like that one. It would go far to explain how he can planet-hop so easily using Shadesmar.
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"I've many." The man took Kaladin's hand. "I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock."
"A pretty one, I hope."
"A beautiful one," the man said. "And one that became completely worthless for my wearing it"
I posted this quote up on 17th shard, The second part makes me think he held one at one point and time, and then lost it.
He says he began life as a thought and concept. Is it possible that he wasn't originally human like the others appeared to be, but some creature from Shadesmar?
I kind of thought that Hoid began life as Brandon Sanderson's concept (words on a page). Maybe Sanderson will write himself into the novels as the supreme god of his cosmere.
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In Warbreaker i thought storytelling Hoid was supposed to represent Tolkien
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In Warbreaker i thought storytelling Hoid was supposed to represent Tolkien
Naw, you're thinking of Slowswift from Hero of Ages. Hoid is Hoid, and I suspect that Brandon has a perfectly consistent in-world interpretation of him.
He may well not have always been human, though. It sounds like he has an interesting backstory, although nothing in his description makes me think he held a shard. Maybe at one point he went by the pseudonym of Jaddeth, and it stuck?
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In Warbreaker i thought storytelling Hoid was supposed to represent Tolkien
Naw, you're thinking of Slowswift from Hero of Ages. Hoid is Hoid, and I suspect that Brandon has a perfectly consistent in-world interpretation of him.
He may well not have always been human, though. It sounds like he has an interesting backstory, although nothing in his description makes me think he held a shard. Maybe at one point he went by the pseudonym of Jaddeth, and it stuck?
Jaddeth is imprisoned in rock, only to be released when all on Sel are converted. ;)
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In Warbreaker i thought storytelling Hoid was supposed to represent Tolkien
Naw, you're thinking of Slowswift from Hero of Ages. Hoid is Hoid, and I suspect that Brandon has a perfectly consistent in-world interpretation of him.
He may well not have always been human, though. It sounds like he has an interesting backstory, although nothing in his description makes me think he held a shard. Maybe at one point he went by the pseudonym of Jaddeth, and it stuck?
Jaddeth is imprisoned in rock, only to be released when all on Sel are converted. ;)
Now that we know there were two Shards on Sel (and suspect that pieces of the shards are floating around), I seriously wonder what this really meant, back in the day.
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I'm re-reading Elantris again and I'm like whoa. There are so many religions, but none of them seem to be linked directly to a shard. Are the religions independed of the shards, or are there other shards on Sel we don't know about. Or maybe some shards came and left like Odium did?
But then again, there is some similarity between Jesker and Aona, mainly that of the Dor. But in addition, I have a theory that Aona put her shard essence into the land, which is why there is such a strong connection between the land and the aons (thus the roed occured when aona's shard was shattered). If this is true, then it would be similar to Jaddeth who is imprisoned in the rock.
So in the end I am really confused. ???
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Maybe this has something to do with Tien. He could tell the difference between an ordinary rock and a special rock. :P
I waited patiently for that particular fixation to become a plot point.
Even though he's now dead, I expect it will be. I've noticed Sanderson adheres strongly to the The Law Of Conservation Of Detail. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) (Danger: TVTropes)
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Tien actually did not die. The body Kaladin found was placed there to look like Tien died. Tien is fact now part of a supersecret rock hunting squad. Just knowing of their existence is instant death. :P
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Tien actually did not die. The body Kaladin found was placed there to look like Tien died. Tien is fact now part of a supersecret rock hunting squad. Just knowing of their existence is instant death. :P
Wait.... are you posting from BEYOND THE GRAVE?
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I'm re-reading Elantris again and I'm like whoa. There are so many religions, but none of them seem to be linked directly to a shard. Are the religions independed of the shards, or are there other shards on Sel we don't know about. Or maybe some shards came and left like Odium did?
But then again, there is some similarity between Jesker and Aona, mainly that of the Dor. But in addition, I have a theory that Aona put her shard essence into the land, which is why there is such a strong connection between the land and the aons (thus the roed occured when aona's shard was shattered). If this is true, then it would be similar to Jaddeth who is imprisoned in the rock.
So in the end I am really confused. ???
Religions don't have to be tied to Shards. There could be multiple interpretations of one Shard, or a religion that incorporates multiple Shards (somewhat like the Kandra, who know of both Ruin and Preservation), or a religion that springs up completely separately.
And in Elantris, Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (IIRC) were both interpretations of a central religion/figure (the one from whom Jesker and Dula religion comes from).
It would be nice to match Shards to religions, but it's not a sure thing.
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I realise this. On Scadril the same thing occurs. Only the Terrismen know anything about the shards.
However there are similarities, and I am trying to pick out the information that may be related to a shard with that a just pure fiction..
Notice that Shu-Keseg preaches unity and Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath both come from Shu-Keseg. To me, unity is very similar to the shard held by the Almighty on Roshar. It could be possible that at one stage the Almighty visited Sel, followed by Odium. (maybe??)
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I'm re-reading Elantris again and I'm like whoa. There are so many religions, but none of them seem to be linked directly to a shard. Are the religions independed of the shards, or are there other shards on Sel we don't know about. Or maybe some shards came and left like Odium did?
But then again, there is some similarity between Jesker and Aona, mainly that of the Dor. But in addition, I have a theory that Aona put her shard essence into the land, which is why there is such a strong connection between the land and the aons (thus the roed occured when aona's shard was shattered). If this is true, then it would be similar to Jaddeth who is imprisoned in the rock.
So in the end I am really confused. ???
This is very, very true. Mistborn made that about as clear as could be---only the Terris people, as far as we knew, had any inkling about the true nature of their world.
However, in Warbreaker, we have different branches of a religion that does seem to be connected back to the single shard that made the world. They have changed in many ways, but the religious significance of the Returned seems to have a basis in fact.
In Elantris, the Dor is very real, and although the Elantrians were worshiped, they probably had their own religion that was somewhat better informed. We see a crazy mixture of truth and falsehood interacting in all the religions that we see in Elantris. I just can't help but wonder what the connections are to the Shards floating around, if any.
Religions don't have to be tied to Shards. There could be multiple interpretations of one Shard, or a religion that incorporates multiple Shards (somewhat like the Kandra, who know of both Ruin and Preservation), or a religion that springs up completely separately.
And in Elantris, Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (IIRC) were both interpretations of a central religion/figure (the one from whom Jesker and Dula religion comes from).
It would be nice to match Shards to religions, but it's not a sure thing.
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what happens to shardholders if they already had abilities? like Sazed being a feruchemist and taking hold of Ruin and Preservation, could he somehow store godly abilities in some kind of metal for later use? does he simply lose his ability? what would happen if a mistborn took some other shard, could they use that shard as a power source? or do conflicting abilities simply forbid you to take up shards?
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I would like to insert here that we don't know all the shards involved in Roshar. There are FOUR involved. Odium, the Almighty, Cultivation and an unknown one.
Odium wasn't one of the three that created Roshar in the first place; those would be the Almighty, Cultivation, and the unknown. Odium came after the fact, as it were, and has presumably been really messing around. For a long time, apparently.
There are four involved? Where's that from? :)
Is it possible to try and assign numbers to the shards? Each world seems to have magic numbers. Mistborn is the most obvious, with Preservation liking the number 16. The number 10 is big in the Stormlight Archive. And after reading Warbreaker again, it seems like the number 5 shows up a lot: the five scholars, the five visions, Returned are of the fifth Heightening, and a few other places.
Would it be crazy to guess that Endowment is the 5th shard, The Almighty of WoK is the 10th, and Preservation was the 16th?
The only problem I see is that Ruin never had a number manifested (but that could just be because Preservation had more contact with humans), and on other worlds with multiple shards it'd be hard to decide what numbers are special, and which shard sponsors them.
I can't think of any numbers from Elantris either. Can anyone else help me out?
Ruin could have been 4th, and 4 4s are 16...
Also, 16 is supposedly significant to the entire Cosmere, not just Scadriel, so perhaps RUIN is 16th, and Preservation used it because of its wider significance. Or perhaps it's all coincidence. ;)
<snip of quoted quotes>
He says he began life as a thought and concept. Is it possible that he wasn't originally human like the others appeared to be, but some creature from Shadesmar?
Or perhaps he's just playing on words and one of his names had a meaning related to thoughts or concepts.
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I think the fourth shard is based on Brandon's Law of Pairing.
Basically, when we look at mistborn everything can be broken down to pairs. Two metals that are similar but do opposite things (pewter and tin both affect the body, but one is internal, the other external). There are two shards that both are related yet are opposites, like two sides of a coin to use the old cliche.
Anyway, fans have applied this law to the Stormlight Archive. I don't know if I agree with it, but there is definitely space for a 4th shard in this series.
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I think the fourth shard is based on Brandon's Law of Pairing.
Basically, when we look at mistborn everything can be broken down to pairs. Two metals that are similar but do opposite things (pewter and tin both affect the body, but one is internal, the other external). There are two shards that both are related yet are opposites, like two sides of a coin to use the old cliche.
Anyway, fans have applied this law to the Stormlight Archive. I don't know if I agree with it, but there is definitely space for a 4th shard in this series.
I don't really think there's any indication that applies to Roshar. On Scadrial, there were all those opposites because you had two shard that were exact opposites. Unless the Almighty's shard is love, that's not really the case on Roshar. Plus, Cultivation would still be mucking things up just by being there.
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When I claimed that there was another Shard involved, it was based on my reading of the statement
"3 of 16 once ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."
My interpretation of this was that there were three Shards on Roshar, all 3 of which were generally benign (or at least natural for Roshar) and operated within their sphere of influence, doing Shard things. Then, just like on Sel, Odium (the Broken One) showed up and began wreaking havoc with their system, resulting in the desolations and the general war that is apparently ongoing.
Part of this is that I don't want Odium to be Ruin part deuce. Ruin was a natural part of Scadriel, even if he and Preservation had to be kept carefully balanced for the world to be amicable. Ruin's power, held by Sazed, is vital to keep Scadriel running. Odium is being built up as something else altogether, as somebody who is personally evil, not just driven to it by his very nature.
Another part of that is that it makes the story much deeper, and gives us many more delicious magic systems.
So I don't have a lot of information to back this idea up, but I haven't seen much against it either. If there are any interviews *ahem* which might shed light on it, I might be willing to read them, though.
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I would like there to be a fourth shard. The complexity of the series, the amount of magic systems and so on and forth would easily allow for there to be another shard. At least, there is already reference to 4/5 other shards in WoK. I hope we get more hints in later books.
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The Ruin/Preservation shard/s that Sazed now holds could be the "17th shard". Originally there were 16, but now 2 are combined into one. Hoid could be writing to Sazed. Although that doesn't explain how Sazed has buddies speaking Dula or why they want to find Hoid.
Evidence:
Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.
Sazed wouldn't know what Ati was like before he held Ruin, but he would have seen the effects. Also, Hoid (or whoever wrote the letter), describes the other shard holders which seems to suggest the recipient of the letter might not know what they used to be like. He also describes what happened to Aona and Skai which someone on Scadrial might not know about. Also, I would guess Sazed would be all about non intervention after seeing what the Lord Ruler tried to do. It seems like Hoid and Sazed could have known each other for a long time and be old friends.
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And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.
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There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".
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There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".
Why not? We know Mistborn happened before WoK, presumably a long time ago. Old is relative and Hoid could have been friends with Sazed for awhile.
And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.
Agreed. But we really have no idea why anyone would be disappointed in Hoid.
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In past books, the epigraphs have always been an extension/teaser/easter egg/whatever you want to call it of the book. They refrence and make hints/foreshadow things that will happen in that book, and in the series as a whole. These Hoid letter are the only epigraphs which make obvious refrence to shards outside of the stormlight archive (even Sazed only mentions the other shards in passing, not really dwelling on them). But I still think these letters are an intergral part of the series.
Addressing them to Sazed would be illogical, unless Brandon plans for Sazed to make an appearance in this series. But anyway, this is only my feeling.
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There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".
Why not? We know Mistborn happened before WoK, presumably a long time ago. Old is relative and Hoid could have been friends with Sazed for awhile.
And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.
Agreed. But we really have no idea why anyone would be disappointed in Hoid.
Much more important than these arguments is that the addressee apparently knew the Shardholder's personally. Hoid's letter is intimate and focusses on personalities to make its most important arguments. This is not a letter to somebody who has to be briefed on the situation. None of this fits Sazed, who would have to be told as somebody who came onto the schene very late.
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I expect Hoid's old friend is someone from the Dragonsteel universe that we haven't met, since we know Hoid's origin is there and hasn't been told yet. Plus he calls the person "you old reptile" which can't be Sazed. Bavarian is probably from there too. There have only been 6 Cosmere books, and there are going to be a few dozen, right? So at this point I expect more teasers than explanation, otherwise there'll be nothing left to tell later.
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When I claimed that there was another Shard involved, it was based on my reading of the statement
"3 of 16 once ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."
My interpretation of this was that there were three Shards on Roshar, all 3 of which were generally benign (or at least natural for Roshar) and operated within their sphere of influence, doing Shard things. Then, just like on Sel, Odium (the Broken One) showed up and began wreaking havoc with their system, resulting in the desolations and the general war that is apparently ongoing.
Part of this is that I don't want Odium to be Ruin part deuce. Ruin was a natural part of Scadriel, even if he and Preservation had to be kept carefully balanced for the world to be amicable. Ruin's power, held by Sazed, is vital to keep Scadriel running. Odium is being built up as something else altogether, as somebody who is personally evil, not just driven to it by his very nature.
Another part of that is that it makes the story much deeper, and gives us many more delicious magic systems.
So I don't have a lot of information to back this idea up, but I haven't seen much against it either. If there are any interviews *ahem* which might shed light on it, I might be willing to read them, though.
The largest evidence I see for 3 shards instead of 4 shards (without reference to interviews) is that there are 3 magic systems on Roshar: Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic. In each of Brandon's books, there has been one magic system for each Shard on the planet. Allomancy came from Preservation, Hemalurgy from Ruin, AonDor from Aona, and Biochroma from Endowment. Presumably the Dakhor magics came from Skai. The only magic system that doesn't fit with this is Feruchemy because it's a bit from Preservation (uses metals in a similar manner as Allomancy) and a bit from Ruin (has diminishing returns like Hemalurgy). Aside from that, it's one magic system for each Shard.
Brandon has said that the Stormlight Archives will have 30 magic systems *depending on how you count*. Here's how I take that statement: for each Shard, there are ten types of magic, one for each of the 10 Essences. Surgebinding relates to the Almighty, and a only a few have been named so far (Windrunners, Stonewardens, Soulcasters, and possibly Dustbringers). I don't recall any names given of Voidbinding (for Odium) or Old Magic (for Cultivation) abilities, but we've also not seen any concrete examples of these.
As for interviews, I'm fairly sure Brandon has said there are 3 shards in play on Roshar, but I can't recall where I saw that. Even without that, I'm fairly sure the the 3 shards x 10 Essences = 30 Magic Systems theory is correct.
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I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.
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I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.
Or perhaps the Parshendi are not actually the Voidbringers? That possibility I'm rooting for because I think we'll be much more likely to have a Parshendi shardbearer focus book if they're not the Voidbringers.
As for the Essences, the way I read the notes on Voidbinding in the Ars Arcanum was that it used the Essences as well, just in different ways than Surgebinding. I'd look up the passage, but I'm about 100 miles away from my copy at the moment.
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I think the ten essences only applies to the power of 1 shard - probably the Almighty. There are a lot more magic systems in this book then have yet been talked about, so it is possible for there to be another shard. The Parshendi don't seem very hateful yet, maybe there power doesn't originally come from Odium.
Or perhaps the Parshendi are not actually the Voidbringers? That possibility I'm rooting for because I think we'll be much more likely to have a Parshendi shardbearer focus book if they're not the Voidbringers.
As for the Essences, the way I read the notes on Voidbinding in the Ars Arcanum was that it used the Essences as well, just in different ways than Surgebinding. I'd look up the passage, but I'm about 100 miles away from my copy at the moment.
Jasnah says in the Ars Arcanum that Voidbinding may use these ten essences, but she is not certain. They may be similar but from something different.
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Salkara you left out several magic systems the biggest of which being Feruchemy which is of no shard but rather the interaction of two. Meaning your evidence, while factual, is most likely misinterpreted due to the oversight of certain details.
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I have to agree with Patriotic Kaz that just counting the number of magic systems isn't enough to tell us about the number of shards. How you count could can become complicated very quickly (is Allomancy one magic system, or 16? Or 4, one for each type of effect?). Interactions between shards can create magic systems. These last two points make the number of magic systems essentially moot for guessing at shard involvement.
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You can probably clarify some by saying "how many magic sources are there?" This turns all of Allomancy into one thing, and only 3 systems in the Stormlight Archives (or so). But a lot of it is still grey, especially with feruchemy. It gets worse if you start trying to quantify Hoid's abilities, etc.
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I have to agree that the number of magic systems does not necessarily correlate to the number of shards. Scadriel is the main example. Two shards, three magic systems. While I do really like the theory, I'm not sure it works in the long run.
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Is there any confirmation that the letter is from Hoid? I read it as being from someone originally from Roshar way back when.
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Is there any confirmation that the letter is from Hoid? I read it as being from someone originally from Roshar way back when.
The fact that it mentions other Cosmere planets and shards, along with the fact that the person is being followed, and we know some people (possibly Elantrians) are looking for Hoid pretty much points strongly towards Hoid writing those letters.
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So I was rereading Elantris, and I think I have an idea as to what Aona and Skai's shards were. Although we know not all shards come in pairs with polar opposites, some like Ruin and Preservation do, and I think its a pretty safe bet that Aona and Skai were a pair of opposites, from Brandon's annotation that Skaze are like evil Seons, little things dropped here and there in the book about Jaddeth, and just the nature of the monks and their power. Anyways, after rereading, I think Aona is Harmony and Skai is Discord. Harmony fits with the nature of the Seons, the relationship between the land and the Elantrian's power, the fact that the medium through which the Elantrians use the Dor is the alphabet or language, a means of promoting harmony and unity, and the way the pool of Dor urges Elantrians to relax and let go....I'm betting that it doesn't actually kill the Elantrians, it more dissolves their corporeal form and individual identity, and their energy becomes one with the res of the Dor. They live on as spiritual energy, part of the land, but with no further need of consciousness. Skai, then, would be Discord, or the disruption or perversion of Harmony. Brandon said somewhere that Odium did not cause the Reod, at least not directly, and I'm inclined to take him at face value. I think the Reod was caused by Skai, disrupting Harmony and breaking the Elantrian's tie with the land and the Dor as part of a power play against Aona, and Odium merely seized on that opportunity to take Aona and Skai out. We know that even polar opposite Shards can work together, as Ruin and Preservation did to create life, and I'm assuming the threat of Odium could have gotten even Aona and Skai to work together to fight him, so he waited until they were already fighting and there was no possibility of them allying.
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Brandon said somewhere that Odium did not cause the Reod, at least not directly, and I'm inclined to take him at face value. I think the Reod was caused by Skai, disrupting Harmony and breaking the Elantrian's tie with the land and the Dor as part of a power play against Aona, and Odium merely seized on that opportunity to take Aona and Skai out.
Interesting. Odium probably tipped the scale to allow Skai to take out Aona, then while Skai was occupied to him/her out.
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If we go back to the main shard phrase we were using before WoK, the two we've met (Endowment and the Pool in Elantris), the one we've seen the power (Skai with the Dakhor?), that leaves one we'd seen the influence of, but left, presumably Odium.
This leads to a bit of a quandary though, as if Odium had already been on Sel when Elantris occurred, then Aona and Skai are already dead. If that's the case, how can one of them be speaking to Raoden in the pool?
This leads to two theories from me:
1. The events of Elantris happened after Odium came and destroyed Skai and Aonas conciousness and splintered their shards. The splinters became the Elantrians and the Dakhor monks. The power of the shards remained in them, and the Elantrians collected what used to be the body of the shard into a pool. When one falls into this pool, it receives the general characteristics of the shard (like release), without having a specific conciousness attached to it. The earthquake occurred after Odium had already left due to simple tectonic plate movement, altering the splintered shard with no set conciousness to fix it.
2. The events of Elantris occured before Odium came. It is the conciousness of Aona that speaks to Raoden in the pool, much like the conciousness of Ruin spoke to Vin. In this case, we haven't seen the 4th shard spoken of above, because it isn't on Sel. It is on the Warbreaker planet, and wants to take away life such as Endowment likes to give life. As a result, many of the Wars seen on the planet have been particularly bloody, like the Manyyears (or whatever it was called) War, and the war Lightsong dreamed about. We saw its influence in driving the Pahn Kahl to attept to get an Idris-Hallandren War.
Personally, the second theory makes more sense to me as far as Elantris goes, though I'm kind of taking a wild shot in the dark as far as the influence shard would go.
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Well Brandon already said Elantris took place after Odium's visit. As for the voice in the pool, that can be a little misleading, because rereading that passage, there's no actual voice speaking to Raoden. It's very carefully phrased as the water SEEMED to be saying to him, its okay, relax, let go...its more like the pool imparted a general impression, rather than in Warbreaker where a voice is said to very specifically offer Lightsong a choice to go back.
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Well Brandon already said Elantris took place after Odium's visit. As for the voice in the pool, that can be a little misleading, because rereading that passage, there's no actual voice speaking to Raoden. It's very carefully phrased as the water SEEMED to be saying to him, its okay, relax, let go...its more like the pool imparted a general impression, rather than in Warbreaker where a voice is said to very specifically offer Lightsong a choice to go back.
I agree. Was about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. :P