Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: XoVeR on September 09, 2010, 06:09:22 AM
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Ok I just finished the Book and I must say it was a really good read, and I am obviously lost in some areas, but I will definitely re-read the series to get a better understanding.
Now there is two questions I wanted to ask and to get people's opinion on.
1. First question is about Hoid (Wit). He was my favorite character in the book especially when he said the "Insluts" line. He is a jester who is paid by the king to insult other people of high standing. To me that is genius, but besides the point. I am confused to what his whole role in this series is. I know he is a Worldsinger and Sigzil's master. He is bright and I would like to say he is concerned about the world but two things stick out. Why does Sigzil not want to be found by Hoid, and in the end of the book I was confused to how he knew Odium (I assume that was Odium) at the end of the book.
2. If people have read the Codex Alera Series by Jim Butcher, you would know what Furies are. In Codex alera furies are everywhere and all alerans have access to the powers granted by certain Furies. Air Furies give increased speed, and the ability to fly. Earth Furies give increased strength and the ability to influence emotions. Water Furies give the ability of healing and shapeshifting. Metal Furies give the ability of increased endurance and mastery of metal weapons. Fire Furies give the ability to induce anger, control fire, and manipulate energy. Wood Furies gives the ability to bend flora to you will and camoflauge. Now in WoK you have Spren. To me it seems like Spren act like the furies in Codex alera. Granted they're are a lot more spren, and they do not only effect the elements but emotions as well. I assume though that Spren gives ability to people as well. My question is though, does different spren give different powers to people like Deathspren giving a person the mastery over death, or a Windspren giving the ability of flight, or can only certain type of spren interact with only a certain amount of people?
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Hoid is a recurring character—he's been in all of Brandon's Cosmere books (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, Way of Kings). Usually, his appearances amount to cameos, and we saw a lot more of him in this book, but confusion and mystery surrounding him is the norm.
We know that he is quite old, that he was present at the Shattering, has the ability to move between worlds, and likely possesses a large number of unknown powers. We know he's one of the good guys, opposing Rayse (Odium), who he knew from before the Shattering. He seems pretty untouchable by anyone who's not a god, which is probably how he gets away with acting like a prick.
A while back, there was a "Svudu cage match", which is where a bunch of nerds get together and argue about whose character could beat up the most other characters. When it came time for the finals: Rand al'Thor vs. Jaime wossname (from those books by a guy named George or something), George saw the writing one the wall. There was no way Jaime would win in a straight-up fight. So he made a proposal: All of mine vs. all of yours. Bring your top five from not only the WoT, but any of Brandon's books as well, and I'll bring my top five.
Brandon's comment? "If I can bring Hoid, the J man's toast." As if Rand Al'Frickin'Thor weren't enough. The moral of the story? Don't mess with Hoid. Dude's got all kinds of crazy crap up his sleeve.
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Yeah, Hoid appears in all of Brandon's books except Alcatraz and the Wheel of Time (and presumably Scribbler, but I don't know that).
It was nice to finally get to interact with Hoid and learn more about him, but there's still a lot more that we don't know about him. In addition to knowing that he was present at the Shattering, it seems quite likely that he is bound to one of the Shards of Adonalsium himself, as this would explain many of his abilities (ie planet-hopping). Although he could potentially have other powers that account for this.
Essentially, Hoid is the awesome. And he makes all of us theorizing fanboys rather gleeful, as he's given us all sorts of interesting things to theorize about over the years.
I don't think that the spren are as much like furies as you think they are. Spren seem to be less sentient, although I imagine that if many more start forming bonds like syl, we could see that. Note, however, that there are WAY more types of spren than there are furies, and the furies seem to be more elemental in nature while the spren seem to correspond to pretty much anything and everything. There are thousands of types of spren. Sure, a windspren is going to be slightly similar to an Air Fury, but I'm pretty sure there's no equivalent in codex alera for Intoxicaspren, or whatever it was the scholar guy discovered by getting incredibly drunk.
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I sort of noticed the spren-fury thing as well.
Insofar as I could tell most furies in Codex Alera weren't sentient or were barely sentient - being mindless forces of nature until bound by an Aleran. Seemed like the only ones capable of being almost-sentient in their own right were the massive uber-furies representing mountain ranges, oceans, volcanoes, etc. Even they seemed 'dormant' unless awoken by a person, though.
Though you are right in that Spren are much more numerous and varied than Furies (though furies have many aspects to them, while spren are more singular seeming), they just seem to be a similar idea represented in a different way. Or perhaps a different idea represented in a similar way? We probably won't know 'till we know the real 'secret' of the Spren, which I have no doubt will show they're far more than just the odd.. pixies everyone in-world seems to think they are.
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Just to note, the guy with the shardblade/dawnblade at the end of the book that Hoid recognizes is not Odium, but Talenel, the only Herald that didn't abandon the oathpact in the beginning of the book.
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Think I heard brandon mention codex alera books in one of the recent writing excuses episodes. He said he liked the book a lot.
I haven't read these books yet.
He had written way of kings before he read Codex.
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For what it's worth, though, the idea of spirits in various things is hardly original to the Codex Alera.
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Jim Butcher took it from Pokemon, after all. ;)
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as for the Spren, if you look at the back of the book there's a table describing the 10 virtues, they're associated spren, and the kind of power that comes with it. There's probably a very good reason Vorinism pushes people to choose a virtue and excel at it since it was more likely to attract a spren and therefore towards becoming a Radiant.
I'm going to guess that when the Radiants betrayed everyone, the Spren stopped bonding with people (or the Spren gave up on the Radiants causing them to lash out and betray everyone?). Either way, net result, no more radiants. Spren seem to become more aware the longer they become attached to a person (as seen by Syl) and then go back to being mindless after that.
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as for the Spren, if you look at the back of the book there's a table describing the 10 virtues, they're associated spren, and the kind of power that comes with it. There's probably a very good reason Vorinism pushes people to choose a virtue and excel at it since it was more likely to attract a spren and therefore towards becoming a Radiant.
I'm going to guess that when the Radiants betrayed everyone, the Spren stopped bonding with people (or the Spren gave up on the Radiants causing them to lash out and betray everyone?). Either way, net result, no more radiants. Spren seem to become more aware the longer they become attached to a person (as seen by Syl) and then go back to being mindless after that.
This actually seems to be the best thing anyone's said yet.
In regards to planet hopping -- How come nobody is freaking out (like I did) when I read Shallan went to Cosmere?
Don't you think that'll be how people start planet hopping? I think it definitely has to relate in some way.
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Okay, I have read that series and also found it quite enjoyable, but I think there are some serious differences between spren and furies. Spren, it seems, come from everything. Most seem to be either created by or come around because of events- LifeSpren around plants, etc., DeathSpren when something is dying, FireSpren around fires, HonorSpren are drawn to the honor of a person, you get it. Furies were independent creatures that had no need of any triggering event to exist. And you could use a furie's powers to change someone's emotions but I don't recall wild furies being able to do so.
Also, I don't remember where in WoK it says that spren directly change someone's emotions. I remember people reacting to them and becoming happier or sadder but that doesn't mean the spren intended that to happen. Just because I see a deer eating and it makes me happy for example doesn't mean the deer chose to do so. It doesn't have that power ( O.o;; or does it? ).
And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery. The only type of Spren we know to confer powers are HonorSpren- but are there different types of HonorSpren that confer different powers, or are the ones that give powers other than Kaladin has other types of Spren? We know there were 10 orders of the Knights Radiant and I imagine they are each linked to one of the Ten Essences, particularly after the very end of the book when Talenel'Elin introduces himself as "Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty" and it matches another of the 10 Essences we see in the back of the book. Kaladin's is obviously Zephyr.
2. If people have read the Codex Alera Series by Jim Butcher, you would know what Furies are. In Codex alera furies are everywhere and all alerans have access to the powers granted by certain Furies. Air Furies give increased speed, and the ability to fly. Earth Furies give increased strength and the ability to influence emotions. Water Furies give the ability of healing and shapeshifting. Metal Furies give the ability of increased endurance and mastery of metal weapons. Fire Furies give the ability to induce anger, control fire, and manipulate energy. Wood Furies gives the ability to bend flora to you will and camoflauge. Now in WoK you have Spren. To me it seems like Spren act like the furies in Codex alera. Granted they're are a lot more spren, and they do not only effect the elements but emotions as well. I assume though that Spren gives ability to people as well. My question is though, does different spren give different powers to people like Deathspren giving a person the mastery over death, or a Windspren giving the ability of flight, or can only certain type of spren interact with only a certain amount of people?
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And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.
So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?
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And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.
So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?
No, the wavy line-head spren are an unknown type of spren that seems to confer the ability to soulcast without a soulcaster.
Deathspren are the black, insect-like spren that people who are on the verge of death see. (Note Kaladin's viewpoints after surviving the highstorm, he sees deathspren shortly before he is given stormlight-infused spheres which bring him back from the point of death.)
Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades?
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as for the Spren, if you look at the back of the book there's a table describing the 10 virtues, they're associated spren, and the kind of power that comes with it. There's probably a very good reason Vorinism pushes people to choose a virtue and excel at it since it was more likely to attract a spren and therefore towards becoming a Radiant.
I'm going to guess that when the Radiants betrayed everyone, the Spren stopped bonding with people (or the Spren gave up on the Radiants causing them to lash out and betray everyone?). Either way, net result, no more radiants. Spren seem to become more aware the longer they become attached to a person (as seen by Syl) and then go back to being mindless after that.
So if this theory is correct than that is exatly what Furies are before they were bonded to Alerans. In the Last book for Codex alera "First Lord's Fury" Alera explained that she was one of the first Furies to bond to a human and was not interested in human kind whatsoever, but sort of became intrigued with Alerans over time, and began lending wisdom of furies to Alerans (she in fact does not bond with anyone but, lends her assistance to the House of Gaius which is a whole nother can of beans)
If the threoy that spren were once bonded to humans then lost there bond, they would be pretty similar to furies in that sense. Spren bonding to humans makes human a radiant which can be compared to a fury making a human a furycraftor. Both gives humans more powers than they would of had normally. Both are usually non sentient, but can form a bond with humans. Both give powers based on they're virtues.
And yes Jim butcher created Codex alera on a bet he had to make a book based on two bad ideas. The lost Roman Legion, and Pokemon
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Oh and one last thing. Is This book tied in any other ways to Brandon Sanderson's other books, other than just Hoid.
Give me some examples. I think I need to read those as well, to get a better understanding of this book.
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Well, there appear to be some people from Sel (The planet Elantris takes place on) that show up in the first interlude (They're the ones who are looking for Hoid. The viewpoint is from the fisherman guy).
Aside from that, Brandon's told us that the books are all related, and we believe Shadesmar to be a large part of what relates them (for one thing, we think it's how Hoid planet-hops).
There's probably a few other things, but I really can't think right now.... sleep.....
Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades?
I like this thought. A lot. I don't think the glyphs and shardblades glowing had much to do with fabrials. If you recall, they stopped glowing the instant the Radiants took them off. No one mentioned any sort of fabrials on the Radiants, and all of the fabrials we've seen so far have been fairly large and noticable. I'd personally say the glow is more likely to just be something the Radiants knew that made them more powerful.
I really like the idea of the fabrials that allow people to access other abilities of other orders of the Knights Radiant, though. I think it makes perfect sense, and it brings up lots of intriguing possibilities.
Also, whoever made the point about Vorinism pushing to excel at virtues in order to facilitate Spren bonding, I think that's also a fascinating idea. No real way to back it up, but it makes a lot of sense.
I laughed the first time I heard someone mention that Codex Alera was based off of Pokemon. But only because I realized that it totally was. It's just very well done.
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No, the wavy line-head spren are an unknown type of spren that seems to confer the ability to soulcast without a soulcaster.
Deathspren are the black, insect-like spren that people who are on the verge of death see. (Note Kaladin's viewpoints after surviving the highstorm, he sees deathspren shortly before he is given stormlight-infused spheres which bring him back from the point of death.)
Chapter 4 Epigraph: "I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky."
Sounds like its from someone under the care of Taravangian, which happens to be where Shallan is located when she draws them.
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I assumed that all of the death quotes that say "collected on..." were from people being murdered by Taravangian and his "healers".
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I assumed that all of the death quotes that say "collected on..." were from people being murdered by Taravangian and his "healers".
No they mentioned that it happens to some people on the shattered plains when they die as well and Jasnah mentioned that she is noticing it as well.
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I noticed some strange quotes from other deaths, but I assumed that the chapter heading ones are all from Taravangian and his.
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That's what I had assumed as well.
It's interesting that the one guy that Vegas quoted doesn't see the wavy-line spren until he's dying. He also apparently is going to Shadesmar as he's dying. Hmmmm.
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Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random people dieing.)
That would probably help with our theorizing.
Anyhow, interesting correlation between the wavy-headed spren and the amount of death. But I don't think they are death-spren, consider how Jasnah was able to soulcast with a fake soulcaster well before she went to study in the palanaeum.
However, I strongly believe that they have something to do with death, and truth. Consider: The only person we know much of who has attracted one of these spren is Shallan (we don't know much about Jasnah, unfortunately). These spren take you to Shadesmar (which is likely the cognitive realm. It could also be the spiritual realm though, unless Brandon said otherwise).
Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her? She has a shardblade, is (or rather, was) living a lie, and she murdered her father. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell us much except perhaps the murder. Maybe these spren are attracted to killing? Unlikely, as there would be many Alethi soldiers with spren hovering around. Perhaps these spren are attracted to something else? Deep, emotional scarring? Unfortunately, we don't really know enough. I can't make heads or tails of it, really. What do you guys think?
Well, we don't know what attracts these spren, but perhaps we can find out what these spren are. There are three options that stand out, Truthspren (note how they asked for one truth to enter Shadesmar), Soulspren (they allow you to soulcast, they have something to do with death.) or Shadespren (they give you access to Shadesmar, and they aren't really visible in the physical realm, they are only visible through the cognitive realm).
Can you guys make some sense of this? I've about run out of ideas here.
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as for the Spren, if you look at the back of the book there's a table describing the 10 virtues, they're associated spren, and the kind of power that comes with it. There's probably a very good reason Vorinism pushes people to choose a virtue and excel at it since it was more likely to attract a spren and therefore towards becoming a Radiant.
I'm going to guess that when the Radiants betrayed everyone, the Spren stopped bonding with people (or the Spren gave up on the Radiants causing them to lash out and betray everyone?). Either way, net result, no more radiants. Spren seem to become more aware the longer they become attached to a person (as seen by Syl) and then go back to being mindless after that.
This actually seems to be the best thing anyone's said yet.
In regards to planet hopping -- How come nobody is freaking out (like I did) when I read Shallan went to Cosmere?
Don't you think that'll be how people start planet hopping? I think it definitely has to relate in some way.
I really like the Spren Abandonment idea, that's great.
As for Shadesmar, (not the Cosmere o_O) Brandon has talked about Hoid knowing some tricks to do with it that allow him to access to all sorts of places, like for instance perhaps the Well of Ascension, but I don't think there's any hints in any of the books as to exactly how he travels between planets.
Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her? She has a shardblade, is (or rather, was) living a lie, and she murdered her father. Unfortunately, this doesn't tell us much except perhaps the murder. Maybe these spren are attracted to killing? Unlikely, as there would be many Alethi soldiers with spren hovering around. Perhaps these spren are attracted to something else? Deep, emotional scarring? Unfortunately, we don't really know enough. I can't make heads or tails of it, really. What do you guys think?
Well, we don't know what attracts these spren, but perhaps we can find out what these spren are. There are three options that stand out, Truthspren (note how they asked for one truth to enter Shadesmar), Soulspren (they allow you to soulcast, they have something to do with death.) or Shadespren (they give you access to Shadesmar, and they aren't really visible in the physical realm, they are only visible through the cognitive realm).
Can you guys make some sense of this? I've about run out of ideas here.
I think Kaladin actually makes it incredibly clear how Spren are attracted: You exemplify the virtue the Spren represent. Honorspren bind things, and Kaladin bound together groups of soldiers and slaves, protecting them and treating them better than they expected. I imagine Shallan's spren are something to do with intellect, or perhaps honesty, given that they require personal truths to admit her to Shadesmar, and that she started being more honest to herself at the end of her plotline when she first discovered her powers.
Oh, and on shardblades glowing- do you think perhaps that they can be imbued with Stormlight when a Radiant uses a Shardblade?
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The Spren are definitely something that I was greatly excited yet dissapointed at in this book. They are mentioned all the time and we still have no friggin idea what exactly they are. We have conjecture, but Brandon did not do an excellent job of explaining them IMO with the converastions between Syl and Kaladin. Maybe he wants to leave more open ended questions about them because they are going to be a bigger part of the plotline, but the whole time I am reading the book I just want to know more about the spren.
Also, why do you think Syl was revolted by the Shardblades? She really had a dislike of the Shardblades at the end of the book
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Didn't the king of Althekar talk about seeing beings with runes as heads in the mirror? Was a scene where he was talking about his paranoia and the cut saddle strap. Can't remember the exact scene though.
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The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?
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The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?
I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)
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The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?
I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)
Szeth is the reason I don't buy into the one Surgebinder one Honorspren theory. Unless the people of Shin have a Truthspren constantly with them... Hmm. That could make sense. As seen from Rysn's VP the Shin are constantly saying what their goods are worth, emulating honesty, maybe attracting Truthspren. Szeth is the Truthless of Shinovar. So maybe he lost his Truthspren by telling a lie? Probably not, but intriguing nonetheless.
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It's one of the more logical theories I've heard about Szeth, though we really don't have enough information about him to say anything one way or another. Also, it's just cool sounding, which makes it right until proven wrong.....
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The thing I found odd about Spren is there are none in Shinovar. So, if the theory that Cultivation decided to hide there is correct, then the Spren are a creation of the other Shard on Roshar, no?
I'm having a hard time remembering this section, and it doesn't make sense to me intuitively. I mean, Szeth is a Windrunner, so he pretty much needs an honorspren right? Or perhaps him having an honorspren made him a Truthless? (Also, who the heck trained him to Surgebind?)
Szeth is the reason I don't buy into the one Surgebinder one Honorspren theory. Unless the people of Shin have a Truthspren constantly with them... Hmm. That could make sense. As seen from Rysn's VP the Shin are constantly saying what their goods are worth, emulating honesty, maybe attracting Truthspren. Szeth is the Truthless of Shinovar. So maybe he lost his Truthspren by telling a lie? Probably not, but intriguing nonetheless.
It's possible, but it would limit the options for what sort of Spren Shallan might have found that admitted her to Shadesmar.
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Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random people dieing.)
That would probably help with our theorizing.
Ever since finishing the book, I've assumed that the death quotes were all from Taravangian's people.
My reasons: (1) Almost all other epigraphs in the book quote "in-world" documents. Jasnyn's notes, the anonymous letter (*ahem* Hoid's letter) , etc. (2) The death quotes all include annotations describing who, how long before death, status, etc. Some even include notations on "usefulness." These are things that would be useful to somebody studying death statements, and seem to be "in-world" constructs. Taravangian is the obvious source of such an "in-world" document. (3) Some of these annotations even mention that they are second-hand. This would show that Taravangian isn't stupid; he is trying to get the best info possible, but doesn't trust anything not taken under controlled conditions. It also thematically groups all the death statements as being somehow "together;' if the exceptions to togetherness are noted, the rest are, presumably, together. (4) At lest one other death quote definitely comes from Taravangian's notes: It goes roughly "I see that you are doing, and I hate you for it. I will not tell you what I see." This was totally from Taravangian's archives, and I say, good for the dying fellow. Somebody should stick it to that monster.
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Since it would be easier for me than for some others, given that I can copy and paste, I'll post the collected epigraphs:
1. “The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”—Collected on the first day of the week Palah of the month Shash of the year 1171, thirty-one seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive.
2. “You’ve killed me. Bastards, you’ve killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!”—Collected on the fifth day of the week Chach of the month Betab of the year 1171, ten seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed soldier thirty-one years of age. Sample is considered questionable.
3.“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”—Collected on the second day of Kakash, year 1171, five seconds before death. Subject was a lighteyed woman in her third decade.
4.“A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.”—Collected on the 4th of Tanates, year 1171, thirty seconds before death. Subject was a cobbler of some renown.
5.“I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”—Collected on the 3rd of Jesnan, 1172, 11 seconds pre-death. Subject was a Reshi chull trainer. Sample is of particular note.
6.“I have seen the end, and have heard it named. The Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”—Collected on the 1st of Nanes, 1172, 15 seconds pre-death. Subject was a darkeyed youth of unknown origin.
7.“I’m cold. Mother, I’m cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?”—Collected on Vevishes, 1172, 32 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyed female child, approximately six years old.
8.“They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn….”—Collected on Palahishev, 1172, 21 seconds pre-death. Subject was a baker’s apprentice.
9.“Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn.”—Collected on Ishashan, 1172, 18 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyed spinster of the eighth dahn.
10.“Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.”—Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments.
11.“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent.
(12) Gadol spit up blood, coughing. “They break the land itself!” he hissed, eyes wild. “They want it, but in their rage they will destroy it. Like the jealous man burns his rich things rather than let them be taken by his enemies! They come!”
Hoid's Letter:
1.Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
2.I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere’s great constants, I should think.
3.Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.
4.You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely.
5.Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason:
6.Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.
7.He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.
8.One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.
9.In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.
10.You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.
11.Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.
12.I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they’re still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They’ll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.
13.If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you’ll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.
14.For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I’ve never begged you for something before, old friend. I do so now.
After meeting with Kaladin: “People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.”
Jasnah's notes:
1.“The ones of ash and fire, who killed like a swarm, relentless before the Heralds.”—Noted in Masly, page 337. Corroborated by Coldwin and Hasavah.
2.“They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest.”—This fragment is the origin of a Thaylen proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common derivation. I believe it may reference the Voidbringers. See Ixsix’s Emperor, fourth chapter.
3.“They lived high atop a place no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man.”—Though The Song of the Last Summer is a fanciful tale of romance from the third century after the Recreance, it is likely a valid reference in this case. See page 27 of Varala’s translation, and note the undertext.
4.“They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.”—Purports to be a scrap collected from Talatin, a Radiant of the Order of Stonewards. The source—Guvlow’s Incarnate—is generally held as reliable, though this is from a copied fragment of “The Poem of the Seventh Morning,” which has been lost.
5.“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.”—This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.
6.“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”—Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.
7.“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.
8.“Born from the darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their bodies much as the fire marks their souls.”—I consider Gashashson-Navammis a trustworthy source, though I’m not certain about this translation. Find the original quote in the fourteenth book of Seld and retranslate it myself, perhaps?
9.“Within a heartbeat, Alezarv was there, crossing a distance that would have taken more than four months to travel by foot.”—Another folktale, this one recorded in Among the Darkeyed, by Calinam. Page 102. Stories of instantaneous travel and the Oathgates pervade these tales.
10.“Death upon the lips. Sound upon the air. Char upon the skin.”—From “The Last Desolation” by Ambrian, line 335.
11.“Like a highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected.”—The word Desolation is used twice in reference to their appearances. See pages 57, 59, and 64 of Tales by Hearthlight.
12.“They lived out in the wilds, always awaiting the Desolation—or sometimes, a foolish child who took no heed of the night’s darkness.”—A child’s tale, yes, but this quote from Shadows Remembered seems to hint at the truth I seek. See page 82, the fourth tale.
13.“Yelignar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.”—The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead personifications of kinds of destruction. This quote is from Traxil, line 33, considered a primary source, though I doubt its authenticity.
14.“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”—Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim’s autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.
15.“They take away the light, wherever they lurk. Skin that is burned.”—Cormshen, page 104.
16.“Radiant / of birthplace / the announcer comes / to come announce / the birthplace of Radiants.”—Though I am not overly fond of the ketek poetic form as a means of conveying information, this one by Allahn is often quoted in reference to Urithiru. I believe some mistook the home of the Radiants for their birthplace.
17.“Flame and char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness.”—A quote from the Iviad probably needs no reference notation, but this comes from line 482, should I need to locate it quickly.
More deathquotes:
13.“I’m standing over the body of a brother. I’m weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?”—Dated Vevanev, 1173, 107 seconds pre-death. Subject: an out-of-work Veden sailor.
14.“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!”—Dated Vevahach, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a prostitute. Back ground unknown.
15.“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”—Dated Palaheses, 1173, unknown seconds pre-death. Subject: a wealthy lighteyes. Sample collected secondhand.
16.“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.”—Dated Palahevan, 1173, 73 seconds pre-death. Subject: a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.
17.“Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.”—Dated Palahakev, 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. Subject: a Thaylen sailor.
18.“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”—Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.
(19)“And all the world was shattered!” Maps yelled, back arching, eyes wide, flecks of red spittle on his cheeks. “The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die!”
20.“ReShephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”—Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed dock-worker in his forties, father of three.
21.“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”—Dated Betabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: a lighteyed child of five years. Diction improved remarkably when giving sample.
22.“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”—Dated Betabanes, 1173, 95 seconds pre-death. Subject: a scholar of some minor renown. Sample collected secondhand. Considered questionable.
23.“In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving.”—Dated Kakanev, 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. Subject was a city guardsman.
24.“The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!”—Kakevah 1173, 22 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed Selay man of unknown profession.
25.“I wish to sleep. I know now why you do what you do, and I hate you for it. I will not speak of the truths I see.”—Kakashah 1173, 142 seconds pre-death. A Shin sailor, left behind by his crew, reportedly for bringing them ill luck. Sample largely useless.
26.“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller.
27.“I see them. They are the rocks. They are the vengeful spirits. Eyes of red.”—Kakakes 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed young woman of fifteen. Subject was reportedly mentally unstable since childhood.
28.“That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices.”—Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.
29.“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Daigonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!”—Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.
30.“They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.”—Tanatanes 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. An Azish itinerant worker. Sample of particular note.
31.“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”—Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year.
(32) “The day was ours, but they took it,” the boy cried. “Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!”
33.“Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms— illuminate the silence above.”
Death quotes I numbered in parentheses occurred during the book, not in an epigraph. Some of them seem to be things Talenel’Elin was saying, others look like statements from Knight Radiants, others seem pretty random.
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First of all, thank you for collecting the epigraphs.
Death quotes I numbered in parentheses occurred during the book, not in an epigraph. Some of them seem to be things Talenel’Elin was saying, others look like statements from Knight Radiants, others seem pretty random.
All of the death quotes from the epigraphs seem to me to be things that people could have said under Taravangian's "tender care." We don't know what they mean; that's the point. Sources, in this case, would seem to be supernatural. If they seem to come from the Night's Radiant, well, it's because those folks were important to the world and the mess that it's going to be in. But the people actually talking were random people Taravangian got into his care.
Note that the quotes are only collected over the course of a few years. This is a recent project, and one that is being very carefully documented. Again in agreement with Taravangian as the "in-universe" source for the epigraphs.
Quotes 2, 5, and 25 make this especially clear.
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Ah, sorry, I wasn't being very clear. Yeah, all those quotes come from people Taravangian has killed. The last one actually has an extended message to Taravangian attached by "Joshor, Head of His Majesty’s Silent Gatherers, Tanatanev 1173". I just mean that sometimes there seems to be other people speaking through them (3, 15, 21), and sometimes (like in the ones you mentioned specifically) they seem to be speaking for themselves.
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I find the referece to the Midnight Mother to be particularly interesting, as she sounds like a definite specific mythical character...is this a reference to the Nightwatcher perhaps? I got the sense that the Nightwatcher was no particular ally to Odium, and outside the conflict between he and the Almighty, though there's no real evidence of this, but this Midnight Mother with talk of her birthing monsters seems to be a foe not unlike him. I'm reminded of the Essence of Midnight creature Dalinar fought in his vision, and if thunderclasts aren't actually voidbringers but monsters that fought alongside them...could they have been birthed by the Midnight Mother rather than be creatures of Odium?
You know, I think most of us have been assuming Bavadin to be a male Shardholder, but we do know that whatever grudge the author of the part 2 epigraphs has is against both him/her and Rayse (Odium)...could Bavadin be this Midnight Mother and a sometime ally of Odium's?
Ah wild, aimless speculation based on one or two throwaway lines. Good times.
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DQ 21 is interesting. It is about Kaladin as he leaps to fight the Parshendi. The gems in the beards are "The feast I must drink clings to their faces". The words sparking in his mind are the 2nd Ideal.
Actually, quite a few of these could be about Kaladin, if you interpret them a certain way, 23, he awakened to some degree in the highstorm when he was left out in it. 25, when he was depressed and saw that the bridgemen would be nothing more than bait no matter how good they got at it. That would go against the other interpretation of the sailor just not wanting to reveal what he saw to the Silent Gatherers, unfortunately.
Is DQ 16 about Baxil's mistress? She gouged out the eyes on the bust, and she fits the definition of vandal perfectly. Does that make her Epan, Lady of Dreams?
Is DQ 26 an event yet to happen? Heart in their hands would be a chasmfiend's gemheart, anyone who gets out of a chasm could be considering to be leaving a pit, and most people who fall into a chasm are assumed dead. If Kaladin gets a bit better at surgebinding he could survive and keep someone else who fell in alive too.
Edit: DQ 14, the glyphs of house Kholinar are khohk and linil, respectively stylized as a crown and tower, Elhokar uses a sword and crown. Fallen title: Knight Radiant? Highprince of War? The spear is something more often associated with Kaladin than the anyone else. Possibly about Kaladin in service to Kholinar as a Knight Radiant?
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Is DQ 16 about Baxil's mistress? She gouged out the eyes on the bust, and she fits the definition of vandal perfectly. Does that make her Epan, Lady of Dreams?
that would imply that the bust is of her or just as a wild theory, perhaps she is the one who created them, or perhaps she owns them or something like that.
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And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.
So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?
Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades?
I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.
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And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.
So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?
Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades?
I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
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An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards. Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him. Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities. The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.
My theory goes something like this: Take Syl's opinion of Dalinar and his Shardblade, the contrast between Radiants using Surgebinding and Shardplate at the same time in Dalinars visions with Szeth's statement that Shardplate interferes with his Surgebinding, and the difference in appearance (particularly the glowing) between Shardblades/plate now and on the Radiants in Dalinar's visions. Given these things, it seems likely that something is wrong or corrupted about Shardblades and Shardplate in modern times, possibly due in part to their history of being taken by violence repeatedly over the last 4500 years instead of being earned however the Radiants did it. Dalinar's possession and use of a corrupted Shardblade and Shardplate may have repelled honorspren. In addition, through most of the book his behavior gave me the impression of a confused and uncertain man trying to find his way, mostly just going with the flow while trying to puzzle things out, rather than a man focused on the virtue of honor.
Now, at the end of the book he has both given away his Shardblade and Shardplate and has made some major decisions and committed to a course of doing the right and honorable thing despite major risks and high cost and effort. I suspect he will attract an honorspren at some point in book two, and at that point he will become a Surgebinder.
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Szeth has no spren. That detail is too important to leave out, spren are attracted to certain things based on their nature Kaladin had the power brought out by Syl but it was always there, that is the only logical explanation because there aren't spren where Szeth come from and yet some group still teaches surgebinding.
1.“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent.
I interpreted this quote as evidence of 3 shards on Roshar and it is my opinion that the Broken One is Odium or whoever it was that killed the Almighty. It is further possible that this is the person that Hoid hates.
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An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards. Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him. Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities. The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.
I have a hard time with that idea. Kaladin has to have some sort of innate magical ability that attracted Syl to him in the first place. If it was only his sense of honor, then honorspren should be bonding with honorable people right and left. I have a hard time believing that Kaladin is the only honorable/uncorrupted person left in the world.
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For what it's worth, though, the idea of spirits in various things is hardly original to the Codex Alera.
For a real-world, modern example, see the Shinto faith of Japan with its associate kami.
Another example might be the genius loci and numen that date back to Roman times.
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And as far as we've seen thus far, DeathSpren come around when something is dying, they don't bond to people to give people that mastery.
So to be clear, when people mention Deathspren, are they talking about the people with wavy lines where their heads should be?
Now, there is a fabrial that allows you to soulcast without being bonded to a spren, so could there also be a fabrial that allows you to surgebind (or windrun, if you prefer) without being bonded to an honorspren? Perhaps this is related to the glowing glyphs on the Radiants armour, and their brightly glowing shardblades?
I wonder why no Honorspren has bonded with Dalinar? Surely he is honorable enough to draw their notice. Perhaps because he weilded a shardblade, but Syl seemed to dislike it for reasons I don't understand, after all the Knights Radiant all wielded shardblades.
An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I have made this theory in another post, but my theory is basically that a spren did bind temporarily with Dalinar when he was fighting the chasmfiend. When he stops the claw with his bare hands, his suit glows (and not from a cracked shardplate), and eight (?) gemstones on Elhokar's shardplate are mysteriously drained. In protecting his nephew, Dalinar has shown the primary divine attribute of 1-Jes (first of the ten elements which also corresponds with an order of the knights radiant). Maybe Dalinar temporarily bonded with some sort of protectionspren or leaderspren as suppose to an honorspren, which Kaladin bonded to, which would lead to different magical powers.
Just had an interesting thought; Honorspren bond with people to make them surgebinders, (or windrunners if you prefer). Another type of spren (Soulspren? Truthspren perhaps?) bonds with a person allowing them to soulcast.
Edit: Accidently posted my thoughts in the middle of a quote...oops.
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For what it's worth, though, the idea of spirits in various things is hardly original to the Codex Alera.
For a real-world, modern example, see the Shinto faith of Japan with its associate kami.
One of my favourites of this is that a tool used for 108 years can become possessed.
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An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards. Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him. Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities. The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.
I have a hard time with that idea. Kaladin has to have some sort of innate magical ability that attracted Syl to him in the first place. If it was only his sense of honor, then honorspren should be bonding with honorable people right and left. I have a hard time believing that Kaladin is the only honorable/uncorrupted person left in the world.
I dunno. tWoK seemed to go out of its way to show that an awful lot of people are not honorable. Kaladin's father lapsed, too, you know Honorspren seem to be pretty picky.
Also, it's possible that Spren couldn't bind to people for some unrelated reason for all this time. It wasn't that people weren't ever honorable, but something else got in the way. Now that the *something else* has been removed, all the old bonds are being restored---and anybody with enough honor would now get an honorspren.
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maybe it was just that the spren were depressed for lack of a better term, they had all had their bonds forcibly broken by the radiants, maybe the reason syl was getting smarter wasnt because of the bond, bu she was just getting over her loss. and the reason she said that she would go back to being stupid is she would sink back into her depression or something
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Besides that just being somewhat comical (mood swings that bad just don't happen to "normal people") it doesn't explain Szeth's surgebinding
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I'm actually pretty certain that Szeth has an honorspren, but that it doesn't hang around much because of the terrible way that he is forced to use his powers. He is honorable, but that's about it. Kind of like how Kaladin los Syl (but not his powers!) while he was slaughtering the Parshendi.
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That's a detail you can't assume because there is zero evidence to support it. I'm the product of being raised around lawyers and engineers so I'm not against assumptions if they are probable, what you suggest is possible but not probable. That's a rather important piece of information don't you think it would have been at least implied that some spren was floating around somewhere? Oh, I just remembered! There are no spren where Szeth comes from, that was told to us, that isn't an assumption.
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I'm actually pretty certain that Szeth has an honorspren, but that it doesn't hang around much because of the terrible way that he is forced to use his powers. He is honorable, but that's about it. Kind of like how Kaladin los Syl (but not his powers!) while he was slaughtering the Parshendi.
My theory is that Szeth's oathstone is a type of fabriel that has a spren imprisoned in it that allows him to use the lashings. But its not perfect, which is why he must always honour his oath.
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That's a detail you can't assume because there is zero evidence to support it. I'm the product of being raised around lawyers and engineers so I'm not against assumptions if they are probable, what you suggest is possible but not probable. That's a rather important piece of information don't you think it would have been at least implied that some spren was floating around somewhere? Oh, I just remembered! There are no spren where Szeth comes from, that was told to us, that isn't an assumption.
Oh, there's not no evidence in favor of it. The fact that Szeth can do exactly the same things that Kaladin can, and that Syl explicitly says that Kaladin's powers come from the interaction between her and him is evidence in favor of some sort of bond being needed for the magic to work. That old king Dalinar talked to also seemed to think that Spren were needed to perform magic. We learned from Jasnah's notes that fabrial's work by capturing and using spren. Most of the forms of magic shown in the books so far need Spren to function. Given that Kaladin's magic works via an honorspren, and that if one thing is hammered home in the book, it's that Szeth is honorable, but also given that Honorspren leave during massacres, it's not completely unreasonable.
But of course it's also perfectly possible that in Shinivar, the magic expresses itself differently, and that this difference is due to the absence of Spren. I perhaps overstated my case above. But we don't get many of Szeth's viewpoints; it's hard to say.
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Because of this quote from one of those recent interviews:
If you look at a lot of fantasy–and this is what I did in Mistborn so it’s certainly not bad; or if is, I’m part of the problem–a lot of magic is just something you’re born with. You’re born with this special power that is either genetic or placed upon you by fate, or something like that. In my books I want interesting and different ways of doing that.
And because he says this is an era when the magic is returning to Roshar, I'm inclined to believe the Honorspren really will seek out the top 200 or so most honest people and try to bind them. But not all at once. The spren have to find themselves and find their hosts or... whatever. And, ideally, they're discerning enough not to grab a worthless peasant who'd use his surgebinding to farm easier.
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That depends on your definition of worthiness, I'm sure farmers would disagree with you ;)
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10,000 Farmers Radiant brace for the Final Desolation?
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An honorspren wouldn't bond with Dalinar because he is not a Surgebinder. He just uses the Shardplate and Blade; he doesn't have their magic.
I think you have the relationship backwards. Dalinar is not a Surgebinder because no honorspren has bonded with him. Syl offers to end her bond with Kaladin at one point, and the conversation about that makes it abundantly clear that breaking the bond would cause Kaladin to lose his Surgebinding abilities. The Surgebinding abilities come from the bond, not the other way around, so if an honorspren bonded with Dalinar he would become a Surgebinder.
My theory goes something like this: Take Syl's opinion of Dalinar and his Shardblade, the contrast between Radiants using Surgebinding and Shardplate at the same time in Dalinars visions with Szeth's statement that Shardplate interferes with his Surgebinding, and the difference in appearance (particularly the glowing) between Shardblades/plate now and on the Radiants in Dalinar's visions. Given these things, it seems likely that something is wrong or corrupted about Shardblades and Shardplate in modern times, possibly due in part to their history of being taken by violence repeatedly over the last 4500 years instead of being earned however the Radiants did it. Dalinar's possession and use of a corrupted Shardblade and Shardplate may have repelled honorspren. In addition, through most of the book his behavior gave me the impression of a confused and uncertain man trying to find his way, mostly just going with the flow while trying to puzzle things out, rather than a man focused on the virtue of honor.
Now, at the end of the book he has both given away his Shardblade and Shardplate and has made some major decisions and committed to a course of doing the right and honorable thing despite major risks and high cost and effort. I suspect he will attract an honorspren at some point in book two, and at that point he will become a Surgebinder.
Well said. I remember Syl had an aversion to the Shardblade...perhaps it was Kaladin's rejection of the Shardplate a year ago that drew her to him? I think she said she had been following him since about that time...
Could there be a theme of honorspren being drawn to honorable people who have in some way rejected the use of a corrupted Shardblade/plate or some other power? Maybe we will see some of the characters that appear to be shaping up to be Radiants get their own spren. That could be way off track, however. Kaladin possesses many other traits that could have attracted her.
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“You used to be vibrant,” Syl said. “So many looked up to you, Kaladin. Your squad of soldiers. The enemies you fought. The other slaves. Even some lighteyes.”
Lunch would come soon. Then he could sleep until their bridgeleader kicked him awake for afternoon duty.
“I used to watch you fight,” Syl said. “I can barely remember it. My memories of then are fuzzy. Like looking at you through a rainstorm.”
She was actually watching him even before he rejected the shards.
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10,000 Farmers Radiant brace for the Final Desolation?
The power of a sharpened turnip!
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Dalinars vision when he was talking with the Nohadon guy mentioned surgebinders and said something like "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" that would seem to imply that you dont need to have an honorspren to be a surgebinder
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Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random people dieing.)
That would probably help with our theorizing.
Anyhow, interesting correlation between the wavy-headed spren and the amount of death. But I don't think they are death-spren, consider how Jasnah was able to soulcast with a fake soulcaster well before she went to study in the palanaeum.
However, I strongly believe that they have something to do with death, and truth. Consider: The only person we know much of who has attracted one of these spren is Shallan (we don't know much about Jasnah, unfortunately). These spren take you to Shadesmar (which is likely the cognitive realm. It could also be the spiritual realm though, unless Brandon said otherwise).
Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her?
These creatures take you to the cognitive realm. Shallan and Jasnah are both scholars.
I think something about the way these two women think and conceptualize the world draws these creatures, especially Shallan's perfect memory.
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Hmm... Someone should collect all the death-quotes from the entire book, and put them in one place (both the "Collected on's" and the ones from random people dieing.)
That would probably help with our theorizing.
Anyhow, interesting correlation between the wavy-headed spren and the amount of death. But I don't think they are death-spren, consider how Jasnah was able to soulcast with a fake soulcaster well before she went to study in the palanaeum.
However, I strongly believe that they have something to do with death, and truth. Consider: The only person we know much of who has attracted one of these spren is Shallan (we don't know much about Jasnah, unfortunately). These spren take you to Shadesmar (which is likely the cognitive realm. It could also be the spiritual realm though, unless Brandon said otherwise).
Now, what do we know of Shallan that would make attract these spren to her?
These creatures take you to the cognitive realm. Shallan and Jasnah are both scholars.
I think something about the way these two women think and conceptualize the world draws these creatures, especially Shallan's perfect memory.
Maybe they are attracted to the honest search for truth? Something like Truthspren.
Note that this doesn't mean that you don't lie. Just that at some deep level you want the truth. Or something like that.
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An ultimate quest for truth, that makes sense as Jasnah is a Verisatalian or whatever, and her primary goal in life is to uncover the truth, and Shallan does it only after being an apprentice Verisatalian
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I was confused to how he knew Odium (I assume that was Odium) at the end of the book.
I'm not sure if someone already answered this, but I don't think the person at the end with a Shardblade was Odium.. Since he died (the shardblade remained as he let it go), and he is supposed to be the primary antagonist on Roshar. I also don't think it was Odium, because the man said he was "Talaenel'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty". If you look at the beginning of the book, you'll see that Taln (possibly short for Talaenel'Elin, as Rosharians often shorten names) is the last Radiant remaining, the one that the others appear to abandon.
Hoid probably knows who Odium is, because he appears to be quite omnipresent. Throughout Sanderson's other books, Hoid seems to be extremely well informed about anything. There are many threads on this forum as to the speculation on who/what Hoid actually is, so I won't go into all the possibilities.
Hope this helps a bit :D
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Assuming he's speaking the truth, which I think is a pretty safe bet, that is Talenel'Elin, the only one of the Heralds who did not abandon the Oathpact as shown in the prelude, and that sword is a Dawnshard rather than a Shardblade. Following Kalak's mental remarks from the prelude, if Talenel had died his blade would have vanished, unlike a normal Shardblade. Thus, he is alive. Also, he's the only reasonable candidate for the "major viewpoint character who first appeared in the epilogue" that Brandon mentioned in an interview he linked to in his blog recently.
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Pretty sure when the Prelude was first released on Tor's site, someone commented on the Talenel/Taln typo to which Peter confirmed to be a knickname.