Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: jrh1524 on September 07, 2010, 07:55:50 PM
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OK, I just finished listening to the Way of Kings audio book and it took my breath away. Was that the best ending ever or what? :o Brandon is getting better and better with every book he writes, and Mistborn was already one of the best books I’ve read.
One thing that really got to me was just how much I hated the villains in the book. I really wanted to just reach into the book and strangle those rat bastards, didn’t you? I’m not truly sure why I disliked those villains more than villains from other books… maybe I hated them more because they seemed more realalistic than the typical mustache twirler?
Anyways, here’s my list in order of villains that need to die. Forgive my spelling of some of the names because I have only listened to the audio book so far and haven’t read my hardcover copy yet.
(the King of Kharbranth, right?)
Sadious = Sadeas
#1 King Taravangian – a true bastard
#2 Szeth – I can’t wait for Kaladin to take him out. He knows what he is doing is horribly wrong, but he does it anyway in the name of his hooky religion or culture or whatever.
#3 Sadeas - I can't believe he betrayed Dalinor even after having his life saved
#4 Amaran
#5 Brightlord Roshone
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Szeth... I'm not sure if I'd rank him as a villain.
He's definitely not a good guy (although he wants to be), but he's far from unforgivable.
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Szeth is totally unforgiveable in my eyes. He cut down women in children during some of his rampages. There is no unbreakable magic spell forcing him to kill innocents... just his sense of "honor".
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Can you give me a quick reminder who each of these people are? I finished the book, but there are so many names that I can't hold them all straight. It also doesn't help that you spelled Sadeas wrong.
Anyways, I think the list is missing some people. Specifically, brightlord Amaram (sp?) and whoever was in charge of the bridgecrews when Gaz disappeared.
I wouldn't put Gaz on that list. He was a jerk, but in the larger picture, he was too petty to be a real villain. He may even have redeeming qualities we don't know about, and his strange disappearance suggests that he was just caught up in things bigger than himself.
I agree with assessing Szeth as a villain (or maybe anti-something or whatever) but he is way too interesting for me to want him to die.
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Here's the spellings for those names.
Tarabon = Taravangian (the King of Kharbranth, right?)
Sadious = Sadeas
I'm not sure who you're referring to with Alocar...you wouldn't mean Elhokar would you? Dalinar's nephew?
The reason I hate Taravangian is that he was a nice guy for the majority of the book. That particular reveal was like. :o ??? :o :'( >:(
Szeth I'm not so sure about. I get the feeling the oathstone has some kind of magic around it that even if it doesn't directly compel Szeth to follow orders, gives him the psychological compulsion to meet out the terms of his punishment. I don't think we know enough about his situation to make any real condemnations just yet.
Sadeas totally needs to die, but how to do it without breaking the country? Hmmm...
Gaz may already be dead, we don't know.
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Ack... I cannot figure out how to edit old posts. Sorry about that.
I may have gotten Alocar wrong. I meant the guy who stole Kaladin's sword, what was his name?
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I view Szeth in the same light as Marsh.
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Ack... I cannot figure out how to edit old posts. Sorry about that.
I may have gotten Alocar wrong. I meant the guy who stole Kaladin's sword, what was his name?
That was Amaran or however you spell it.
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I hear you about Gaz. I mainly put him on the list to round it out to 5 rather than have a top 4. ;D
He seemed to have a few redeeming qualities.
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Oh, I know who you need to put in spot number 5: Brightlord Roshone, the bastard that conscripted Kaladin's brother, a little kid, just to be mean.
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Oh, I know who you need to put in spot number 5: Brightlord Roshone, the bastard that conscripted Kaladin's brother, a little kid, just to be mean.
Great idea! Done!
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Ack... I cannot figure out how to edit old posts. Sorry about that.
On your posts, top right corner, next to the "quote" button is a "modify" button. Simply click that and edit it, then click submit.
I also am not convinced that Szeth isn't a villain, per say. I think there's more going on there that we don't know about yet.
Also, i'm with the "Gaz is just a jerk, not really an evil dude" idea. he's more akin to what a highschool bully would be in an old detective noir flick. He's annoying, but not really a main "bad guy" or any real opposition, and can be placated pretty easily, and in the end may even redeem himself and then some.
Then again, he could also move on to become something worse.
That or he's all ready dead, and we can just ignore him now.
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Oh, Szeth is awesome. Are you excited as I am that he'll be getting his own book? It's true :D
The Taravangian reveal was emotional, but it didn't match my horror when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. That was just... God. I can't put words into that one.
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Oh, Szeth is awesome. Are you excited as I am that he'll be getting his own book? It's true :D
The Taravangian reveal was emotional, but it didn't match my horror when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. That was just... God. I can't put words into that one.
Yeah, Brandon is getting really good at writing villains. Even while I hate them for everything they have done, I love it how they can spout completely reasonable rationalizations for being the absolute scum of the planet. He's really taken to heart the fact that nobody views themselves as villains. This makes the difference between the good guys and the bad guys what they do, not what they say, which is just so much more emotional, not to mention realistic. So much so that I've seen some commentators claim that Sadeas wasn't that bad---which is baloney. He just has a silver tongue and a heart of coal.
The only person on that list that I wonder about is Szeth. He's done---terrible things. I don't know why. We really need to understand his religion and history to understand how he did what he has done, given what he feels about it.
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Oh, Szeth is awesome. Are you excited as I am that he'll be getting his own book? It's true :D
The Taravangian reveal was emotional, but it didn't match my horror when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. That was just... God. I can't put words into that one.
Please can you get that interview posted....
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I'm also not sure I'd classify Szeth as an irredeemable villain... he's a weapon, and I'm not entirely certain as to the extent of his free will. We don't know yet why he's bound to the oathstone or what that actually means, beyond the fact that he must obey whomever holds the stone (with certain caveats).
Taravingian was the shocker for me, partly because in my head I saw him as this sweet old man (I pictured him looking a bit like the old king from The Princess Bride, though I'm not sure if that melds with the proper description).
Sadeas's betrayal was terrible, but not exactly unexpected.
I look forward to the day when both get their comeuppance.
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Taravangian is an interesting fellow.
I'm really not sure if he is a "bad guy" or not, in the sense of him being part of the "voidbringer cause."
I can understand what he is doing, and I can even see the sense in it, even if it is something horrible. But collecting those pre-death statements very well COULD be a clue to help in their survival. If that is the case, then he's a monster, yes, but a monster who helped save the world...
However, I can't help but wonder why he believes that uniting the Highprinces is something that they wouldn't want...
The problem with all of the villains presented in this book is that they're not utterly, no-doubt-about it bad. I like that. I'd prefer to almost agree with a villain than hate him outright. It makes for more tension.
I'll wait a few more books before I make my determination of who is truly evil and who is just a jerk.
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However, I can't help but wonder why he believes that uniting the Highprinces is something that they wouldn't want...
I can think of four possibilities.
First is that he's being controlled by Odium without realizing it. He thinks he's saving the world, but he's actually just making it much, much worse. Like Rashek!
Second, there's about Odium or the Voidbringers that makes them especially dangerous to a unified nation. I don't know what this could be, but I'm sure there's something that could do that. And Taravangian could have learned about that vulnerability through the prophecies he's learned.
The third theory is related to the second. Taravangian is misinterpreting something he's hearing in the deathwords, and therefore thinks that he needs to keep everything divided.
Fourth is the most likely, in my opinion. His words to Szeth are telling: "Sometimes, you must tear down a structure to build a new one with stronger walls". He's planning to force a collapse, then rebuild a nation that can survive what's coming.
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But but but I don't want Szeth to die. D: T-T
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What if he died at the very end of the series? Would you be okay with that?
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Oh, Szeth is awesome. Are you excited as I am that he'll be getting his own book? It's true :D
The Taravangian reveal was emotional, but it didn't match my horror when Sadeas betrayed Dalinar. That was just... God. I can't put words into that one.
Please can you get that interview posted....
Soon! The weekend! Maybe!
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Fourth is the most likely, in my opinion. His words to Szeth are telling: "Sometimes, you must tear down a structure to build a new one with stronger walls". He's planning to force a collapse, then rebuild a nation that can survive what's coming.
Yeah, I think his plan is to cause everything to fall apart so that he can build a strong nation in everything's place, assumaby with himself as king.
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The only one on that list I really hated was Roshone. The other villains (besides Szeth if he even is one) at least thought they were doing the right thing for the greater good. Roshone was just a bastard.
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The only thing Szeth has left is his religion. Are you asking for him to betray the only thing he has left? And besides, how do you know that Szeth is only obeying religion?
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.) My bet is on Kaladin. He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.
I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else. I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.
Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin? Oh, boy.
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Oh, my goodness! I nearly threw my book in anger when Sadeas abandoned Dalinar. My husband was in the next room and thought I was going nuts. I just kept yelling, "Oh, I hate that Sadeas! He's so stupid! I'm going to kill him!!" haha.
And now that stupid jerk has a Shardblade. Great.
Also, I'm with everyone else. I don't think Szeth is a villain. Yeah, he kills people, but I have a feeling magic is involved somehow. I think after the whole epic Szeth vs. Kaladin rivalry plot unfolds, he'll become one of the good ones. Maybe he'll send Kaladin after Taravangian, get his Oathstone back, and then they'll be the beginning of the new Windrunner order. That's just my prediction though.
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.)
It's in the text on the back of the book, and it says "one of the four will destroy us", the four being Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin and Szeth, it doesn't say who the "us" are, it doesn't necessarrily mean destroy the world.
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Oh, my goodness! I nearly threw my book in anger when Sadeas abandoned Dalinar. My husband was in the next room and thought I was going nuts. I just kept yelling, "Oh, I hate that Sadeas! He's so stupid! I'm going to kill him!!" haha.
And now that stupid jerk has a Shardblade. Great.
I really would like to have your Husband and (yourself of course) over for tea one day, ROFL. ;D
As for Sadeas being killed...
Call me twisted, but I would enjoy reading more of him, especially now that he has betrayed Dalinar.
If he is now forced to work together with him, mabe even to the extend where this cooperation plays a major part in the saving of the world... *Kykeon favours the room with one of his more sardonic smiles*
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.)
It's in the text on the back of the book, and it says "one of the four will destroy us", the four being Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin and Szeth, it doesn't say who the "us" are, it doesn't necessarrily mean destroy the world.
I've been trying to figure that one out as well. Honestly, even after reading the book, I could see it taken ways where any of the four could either "save" or "destroy" us.
I was hoping to see Amaran show up at some point. It said he was coming to the Shattered Plains, right? Really looking forward to see how that little reunion pans out.
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I have a feeling that Amaram really isn't going to be the guy we all want to hate. It seemed like he genuinely regretted his decisions, and he probably legitimately believed he had a responsibility to do what he did. I'm definitely curious to see what Brandon does with his character, because there is a lot of potential with that guy beyond "scumbag who deserves to die".
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I have a feeling that Amaram really isn't going to be the guy we all want to hate. It seemed like he genuinely regretted his decisions, and he probably legitimately believed he had a responsibility to do what he did. I'm definitely curious to see what Brandon does with his character, because there is a lot of potential with that guy beyond "scumbag who deserves to die".
That's how I imagined him as well, and why I kept hoping we'd see him again before the book was over.
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Ten books, people.
It really isn't hard to see that we're being set up for at least a few long-range plot and character arcs.
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I really didn't think any of the "villains" were that villainous... I mean, Szeth SEEMS the worst, because he mows down people for what some might say is "no reason at all", but he clearly, and I mean, really clearly, can't control himself. The Oathstone literally forces him to do things. Maybe in a realistic novel, where some murderer is saying "my Oathstone made me do it" would be wacky, but in a fantasy novel, its completely acceptable, and I for one am very excited to see how Szeth's character plays out. I don't think he is, or ever will be, entirely, a villain.
The other characters you talked about were d!cks, I'll admit, but none of them were that villain from a comic book, who does evil stuff just to be evil. I think we have yet to see who the real villain of WoK is. Although only mentioned a few times, Odium does seem to have influence (much like Ruin) on the people of Roshar. I have a feeling he will be showing up a lot more often in the future. Most of the people did what they did because it is the best way for personal gain, which is repeatedly shown to be core of Alethi culture.
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...The Oathstone literally forces him to do things. ...
No, it does not, his honor forces him to obey. Chapter 71:
I probably needn’t say it, but I order you not to harm me.
and
Or I could kill him, Szeth thought. I could stop this.
He nearly did it. But honor prevailed, for the moment.
His honor, not his oathstone stopped him from breaking a command.
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Or at least, that's what he thinks. :o
He could just be making up reasons for him wanting to obey, with his honour being the strongest. A similar concept can be found in WOT, where people who are compelled must make up reasons in their own heads to obey the orders, and that the most effective compulsion is telling you to do something that you already would do normally. In this case, Szeth could be "Compelled" to obey his oathstone, and as he considers it an "Honourable" thing to do, he does it and tells himself that his "honour" is prevailing.
Just a thought.
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My top five are:
1) Odium- okay I know he can't be killed except for maybe by Hoid or Sazed ( other shardholders) but he is really evil.
2) King Taravangian- the most evil human on Roshar!!!
3)The Ghostbloods
4)Szeth- not really bad but he still probably needs to be chopped down in order to get to Taravangian.
5) Amaran
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Aside from the obvious (Odium), I don't think we've met 5 villains who *need* to die. Sadeas is up there, but he's got redeeming qualities. We don't know enough about Amaram, the Ghostbloods, or others to know how they'll play out. I see Nan Balat becoming quite a villain in later books and in need of killage (from Shallan of course), but that's just conjecture at this point. Taravangian seems pretty sinister, but I can also see him as someone who's made bad choices. As for Szeth... I see him being a hero; redemption is always a strong story.
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These would be my 5:
Odium (Not much to say there)
Thaidakar (Ghostblood leader dude. He's probably really evil, even though we don't know much about him yet)
Taravangian (I would prefer that Szeth get over his 'honor' and just kill this guy, rather than anyone else doing it. He got so close...)
Roshone (I can't wait to see his reaction when he finds out what's become of Kaladin)
Amaram (He's on his way to the Shattered Plains at the end of the book. Lets have him and Kaladin meet in some hugely epic way and perhaps get him and Adolin dueling)
Sadeas deserves to die, but I don't really see it happening anytime soon. With him gone, we'd lose one of Elhokar's most loyal, and that could get Dalinar in a whole mess of trouble...
Szeth can't die until he redeems himself at least slightly by killing someone who deserves it. I know that he can get redeemed.
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I agree with you on that last note. Sadeas deserves to die but he definitely needs to be there to be an antagonist for Dalinar.
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@Erunion
I don't want to start splitting hairs, but the type of compulsion you speak of is a weave developed from the intuitive weaves of wilder novices and exclusively used by Verin Mathwin.
Most other forms simply instill an irresistable urge to obey in the victim.
That being said; it's not a bad idea, but I'd be a little bit dissapointed.
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@Erunion
I don't want to start splitting hairs, but the type of compulsion you speak of is a weave developed from the intuitive weaves of wilder novices and exclusively used by Verin Mathwin.
Most other forms simply instill an irresistable urge to obey in the victim.
That being said; it's not a bad idea, but I'd be a little bit dissapointed.
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If the Oathstone works like compulsion, I'd be a little put out as well. I think it's much cooler that Szeth's sense of honor is so strong that it keeps him living a life he hates to maintain it.
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.) My bet is on Kaladin. He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.
I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else. I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.
Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin? Oh, boy.
Random oaths? Like, say, "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves?"
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If the Oathstone works like compulsion...
It doesn't, see reply #33 in this thread from me. There is ample evidence in the book that they are not compulsion.
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If the Oathstone works like compulsion...
It doesn't, see reply #33 in this thread from me. There is ample evidence in the book that they are not compulsion.
You say true, I say thank you.
However, some folks (namely Erunion) tried to argue 'around' that fact. ;D
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But if these people died, we'd lose pretty well all the most interesting characters in the series.
Like EODO, the only character on the list that I really didn't like was Roshone. I really liked Sadeas throughout the book, and the Taravingian reveal at the end is awesome.
In fact, I can't help but like Taravingian. Here's a guy who believes in the Almighty, as evidenced by his debate with Jasnah early in the book, knows he's completely dooming himself by his actions to whatever doom these guys believe in, and yet continues his actions because he believes his saving the world. And for all we know, he might be right with what he's doing. He calls these people his dear friends, and is still willing to sacrifice them. Evil? Completely. But he might be just what the world needs at this point.
Yeah, I would much prefer a Taravingian book to a Shallan, Adolin, or another Kaladin book, but I don't think it's happening. Some characters need to remain mysterious.
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Roshone is simply out of money and options and fated to be no more than an unceasing misfortune to all those around him - I don't think anyone in his world and plane of reality likes him either. Is he a Villain? As much as the next grouchy old man who harasses the neighbors.
Sadeas is socially accepted opportunist who can't see the use of taking the good path when the bad is more convenient/quicker - he's a politician.
Amaran has disturbing logic in the events we've witnessed - he's focused on appearances rather than actuality in any given moral dilemma we've seen him confront. Who knows - we haven't seen very much of him so maybe he'll show some redeeming behavior as the tale progresses?
Szeth obviously has a backstory (which will come out later) and has a lifestyle that does not give him many options. Didn't his viewpoints make it seem like he ENJOYED having his abilities underestimated so he wouldn't be used? He's sickened by what Taravangian is doing - obviously his moral compass points the right way...he simply doesn't have free will to act as his convictions direct him (or at least believes he doesn't). I don't see him as evil so much as exploited and unable to escape a cycle of violence and destruction - he's a tool in the hands of whoever lays hold of his stone. Would I like to see what he can/would do without a master forcing his hand.
So...right now I think he's an Anti-Villain but not really by choice.
Taravangian is really the surprise bad guy here...but he's got it all rationalized and he's got overall good intentions (to save the world from the doom which is obviously coming). Do I think he's our biggest mortal foe? No. Definitely an Anti-Villain by choice.
So I see two who I don't believe should be on the list...YET
Szeth...has not acted on his own, as he would choose - yet.
Amaran - I don't feel we have enough information. Obviously he's not the most exemplary individual we'll ever meet but he's not necessarily a full fledged Villain.
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I agree with the points made about Taravangian. I really hate him, but I can understand him too. He does what he does in an attempt to save the world. His moral compass is obviously very flawed, but whatever he discovers could be a serious help to saving the world. I wish there was another way to find out the things he's looking for, but that's the only option he's got. He could probably do it more patiently, and with only the terminally ill, so there is reason to say he's just plain evil.
As for the 'One of them may save the world. One of them will destroy it.' My votes go toward Dalinar and Szeth, respectively. Szeth's skewed version of honor could very easily mean the end of everything.
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As for the 'One of them may save the world. One of them will destroy it.' My votes go toward Dalinar and Szeth, respectively. Szeth's skewed version of honor could very easily mean the end of everything.
I think that both of these refer to Szeth.
I think Szeth won't let Taravangian do what he intends, which is to save the world from the voidbringers. Before long, Szeth won't stand by and watch Taravangian kill women and children. He'll have to confront his own part in what he's been doing, which may destroy him, but it may also destroy everything Taravangian's worked for.
On the other hand, the world can't survive on a foundation in which it is okay to do such evil things for any reason. The ends cannot justify the means. Is letting the voidbringers win better than what Taravangian is doing? I think it is. By destroying the King, he may yet save us all.
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I think the dynamic between Szeth and Taravangian is really interesting, and I hope we're going to get to see more of it. Taravangian actually reminds me a lot of Szeth in some ways - compelled by ways and reasons we don't yet understand to kill people that he doesn't want to kill. I almost wonder if he made Szeth kill all those innocents so that he'd have a closer understanding of what Taravangian was doing. Just a spur-of-the-moment impression. :)
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As long as we're discussing murderers, liars, and thieves who are merely victims of circumstance... Shallan.
<.<
>.>
Jus' sayin'. Well intentioned she may seem, but I bet she ends up doing more harm than good. Kill her now, before she develops crazy superpowers. It's the only way to be sure.
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I agree about Shallan unintentionally doing more bad than good and she wasn't exactly my favorite character, but I still wouldn't want her killed off. She's pretty much our best resource of learning more about Soulcasting and Shadesmar, and I'd love to see what happens to her family and if she uses her powers to help them. Usually I'm all for killing people off GRRM style, but the characters in WoK are just so good... even if I don't like them, I want to know more about them and their motives before I would want them dead.
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Oh, yeah -- as I reader, I definitely love seeing Shallan's viewpoint and would hate to see her die. (In-character, though... she's trouble. Probably even supports rights for Spren.)
The only one I wouldn't mind seeing bumped off would be Sadeas, just to rub that smug smile off his face. "Haha! Yet again I triumph in some small way at great expense to you. You will rue the day you underestimated my crafty-- " *random Thunderclast appears* *crunch* *splat* *dies*
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If the Oathstone works like compulsion...
It doesn't, see reply #33 in this thread from me. There is ample evidence in the book that they are not compulsion.
You say true, I say thank you.
However, some folks (namely Erunion) tried to argue 'around' that fact. ;D
Yup. I personally think it would be better storywise that Szeth is compelled only by his innate sense of honour.
But I like playing Devil's Advocate, it encourages discussion! ;)
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I don't think Szeth needs to die, at least not yet, he's an interesting character and as somebody said, his moral compass clearly points in the right direction.
Sadeas needs to die in some suitably embarrassing way.
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.) My bet is on Kaladin. He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.
I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else. I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.
Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin? Oh, boy.
It's on the back of the hardcover, and you're forgetting Szeth, who is the most probable character to go off destroying things at this point.
It seems to me that Kaladin and Szeth will end up being very opposite, I mean, Kaladin is embracing the Oaths, and Szeth is following an 'honor' of a very different sort. Personally, I think that while Szeth is far more practiced, Kaladin will be an even match for him relatively soon since these Oaths seems to be giving him power.
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Szeth cant die, he is one of the new Night radiances (spelling??) He and Kaladin must survive and unite.
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You know how it says, somewhere, that one of the three viewpoint characters would ruin the world? (I don't remember where, but that means that either Dalinar, Shallan, or Kaladin are going to do something really stupid.) My bet is on Kaladin. He just seems too easily embittered, and while he did a ton of good in this first book, I can easily see him turning into a much shadier guy as we get deeper into the series.
I mean, once he gets his powers developed, he'll be just as unstoppable as Szeth--but without any random oaths to anybody else. I can see him going Loose Cannon on Roshar brightlords sometime in the future.
Dalinar or Adolin might never kill Sadeas, but Kaladin? Oh, boy.
It's on the back of the hardcover, and you're forgetting Szeth, who is the most probable character to go off destroying things at this point.
It seems to me that Kaladin and Szeth will end up being very opposite, I mean, Kaladin is embracing the Oaths, and Szeth is following an 'honor' of a very different sort. Personally, I think that while Szeth is far more practiced, Kaladin will be an even match for him relatively soon since these Oaths seems to be giving him power.
Don't forget that, as Teft noticed, Kaladin is a master of the spear. He hasn't used Stormlight as much as Szeth, but his other practice might manage to make up for it, as well as the oaths.
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Sorry if I am doing necromancy here ;D, but this talk about Taravingian reminds me of a proverb:
'History needs its butchers as well as its shepherds'
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I don't think Sadeas is going to end up being a bad guy. >>' I have a feeling he'll be one of the main heroes in the end. . . he just needs to open his eyes.
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That could play out really interestingly. Because it would require Dalinar to forgive him, and after what happened that would require friggin' divine levels of honour and mercy. Of course, if there's any character to display such a thing...
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You could shank Dalinar and say sorry and he'd forgive you.
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You could shank Dalinar and say sorry and he'd forgive you.
:D
I seriously don't think Dalinar's gong to forgive Sadeas for his latest stunt anytime soon.
And Kaladin isn't going to forgive Sadeas for using the bridgemen as cannon fodder anytime soon either.
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That could play out really interestingly. Because it would require Dalinar to forgive him, and after what happened that would require friggin' divine levels of honour and mercy. Of course, if there's any character to display such a thing...
Ha, he'd be so crowded in Stupidityspren that he couldn't see anything and walk off the ledge of a chasm... ;D
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That could play out really interestingly. Because it would require Dalinar to forgive him, and after what happened that would require friggin' divine levels of honour and mercy. Of course, if there's any character to display such a thing...
Ha, he'd be so crowded in Stupidityspren that he couldn't see anything and walk off the ledge of a chasm... ;D
Well you can forgive someone without necessarily having to trust them again. There are people in my past that really hurt me; I don't nurse a grudge against them, but I wouldn't trust them not to do the same thing again without some kind of proof. A large part of the point of Dalinar's viewpoints is that you can be honorable without being stupid.
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Well you can forgive someone without necessarily having to trust them again. There are people in my past that really hurt me; I don't nurse a grudge against them, but I wouldn't trust them not to do the same thing again without some kind of proof. A large part of the point of Dalinar's viewpoints is that you can be honorable without being stupid.
That's very true. Besides, Sadeas' crimes don't deserve death....just lots and lots of pain. Hearing him scream and plead for mercy would be entertaining and satisfying, death would not. ;D
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Well you can forgive someone without necessarily having to trust them again. There are people in my past that really hurt me; I don't nurse a grudge against them, but I wouldn't trust them not to do the same thing again without some kind of proof. A large part of the point of Dalinar's viewpoints is that you can be honorable without being stupid.
That's very true. Besides, Sadeas' crimes don't deserve death....just lots and lots of pain. Hearing him scream and plead for mercy would be entertaining and satisfying, death would not. ;D
So... you want him to become of the new heralds and scream in agony for a few millennium between each desolation?
but yeah, I agree. Sadeas will most likely end up redeeming himself in some way.
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In fact, I can't help but like Taravingian. Here's a guy who believes in the Almighty, as evidenced by his debate with Jasnah early in the book, knows he's completely dooming himself by his actions to whatever doom these guys believe in, and yet continues his actions because he believes his saving the world. And for all we know, he might be right with what he's doing. He calls these people his dear friends, and is still willing to sacrifice them. Evil? Completely. But he might be just what the world needs at this point.
Yeah, I would much prefer a Taravingian book to a Shallan, Adolin, or another Kaladin book, but I don't think it's happening. Some characters need to remain mysterious.
Actually, I find that this makes Taravingian even more disturbing, because he has been warned against this behaviour by an authority figure he clearly trusts but in his own self-aggrandizing arrogance thinks that ethics are for other people, not him, and he's got to do whatever it takes to win. He may have given up what he perceives as his ultimate reward, but by doing so he's undermined the whole foundation of what he believes in and no longer has a coherent philosophy to stand on. In short, he's not just a person going to monstrous lengths to do something that's probably good, he's also a hypocrite.
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Well you can forgive someone without necessarily having to trust them again. There are people in my past that really hurt me; I don't nurse a grudge against them, but I wouldn't trust them not to do the same thing again without some kind of proof. A large part of the point of Dalinar's viewpoints is that you can be honorable without being stupid.
That's very true. Besides, Sadeas' crimes don't deserve death....just lots and lots of pain. Hearing him scream and plead for mercy would be entertaining and satisfying, death would not. ;D
So... you want him to become of the new heralds and scream in agony for a few millennium between each desolation?
but yeah, I agree. Sadeas will most likely end up redeeming himself in some way.
I don't necessarily want him to become one -- although the millennia of torture would be great -- but I do think that he will eventually become one just because he'd crap monkeys if Dalinar did something that he couldn't.
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I don't think anybody deserves millennia of torture for anything. I just want him to be humiliated, preferably by being forced to beg Kaladin and Bridge 4 for his life. In front of all his underlings. Being made to publically beg for mercy from a bunch of the darkeyes that he exploited would be the ultimate karmic punishment for him. Wouldn't need to be any pain involved. The abject humiliation would be enough.
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Good point andygal. I'd be happy with abject humiliation. But I'm still not giving up my dream of pushing Sadeas into the great pit of Carkoon.
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OK, I just finished listening to the Way of Kings audio book and it took my breath away. Was that the best ending ever or what? :o Brandon is getting better and better with every book he writes, and Mistborn was already one of the best books I’ve read.
One thing that really got to me was just how much I hated the villains in the book. I really wanted to just reach into the book and strangle those rat bastards, didn’t you? I’m not truly sure why I disliked those villains more than villains from other books… maybe I hated them more because they seemed more realalistic than the typical mustache twirler?
Anyways, here’s my list in order of villains that need to die. Forgive my spelling of some of the names because I have only listened to the audio book so far and haven’t read my hardcover copy yet.
(the King of Kharbranth, right?)
Sadious = Sadeas
#1 King Taravangian – a true bastard
#2 Szeth – I can’t wait for Kaladin to take him out. He knows what he is doing is horribly wrong, but he does it anyway in the name of his hooky religion or culture or whatever.
#3 Sadeas - I can't believe he betrayed Dalinor even after having his life saved
#4 Amaran
#5 Brightlord Roshone
Roshone is just straight-up scum and needs to be strung up by his gonads.
Szeth isn't a villain; he's a tool and hates how he's being used. He's kinda ignorant and naive, though; these are things that let him be used. It's odd that he won't break his oath no matter what.
I don't think Taravangian is really as evil as he seems. I think Taravangian is exercising some brutal, nefarious means to his ends but he believes he is just. IS he a force for good, simply misled? Is he purely evil? This hasn't been expressed.
Amaram isn't bad. True, he did a bad thing by killing Kaladin's friends and exiling him into slavery, but based on the judgment he gave he actually did the right thing by taking the shard. You don't just throw away a Shardblade and Plate. They're just too powerful and they mean too much to give away. I don't blame Amaram for t aking them but I wish he could have found another way.
Sadeas... yeah, Sadeas needs to die. Definitely. He's scum of the highest order, just another spoiled, money-grubbing nobleman with a penchant for violence and brutally oppressing his lessers.
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Roshone is petty, small-minded and bitter. I feel bad for Laral, being stuck married to him...especially since he's 3 times her age.
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Taravangian seems to believe his cause is good. I think he really does believe that whatever he finds from all these little snipets is going to save the world. But that doesn't for a moment excuse the way he's going about doing it.
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sacrificing a few to save many? and the 'few' are mostly people who are dying or terminally ill or so ill they wouldn't survive on their own. pretty messed up, but what he's doing could end up saving the world.
Considering that, I see him like Szeth: good at heart but sorely misguided. Used.
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sacrificing a few to save many? and the 'few' are mostly people who are dying or terminally ill or so ill they wouldn't survive on their own. pretty messed up, but what he's doing could end up saving the world.
Considering that, I see him like Szeth: good at heart but sorely misguided. Used.
Besides the homeless, prostitutes and foreigners he kidnaps and kills to keep the sayings coming...
If he only used the terminally ill, he might still want to hide what he was doing, all things considered. But I doubt people here would consider it nearly so brutal.
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oh. I forgot that he kidnapped people, too.
Does that put him in the 'insane' category, then? What if he's just so hung up on his own self preservation he doesn't care who he hurts? That would go along with the assertion that he's a villain, and why he's sewn chaos by killing so many foreign leaders (through Szeth), and also his MO for kidnapping those foreigners & prostitutes.
"Sick people, whores, foreign aliens... nobody will miss them. Let's see what they can tell us in death..."
Yeah. Yeah that sounds about right. He's not nearly as powerless as Jasnah made him out to be, either. Hell, maybe the thugs in that one alley near that theater were actually EMPLOYED by Taravangian.
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Yeah. Yeah that sounds about right. He's not nearly as powerless as Jasnah made him out to be, either. Hell, maybe the thugs in that one alley near that theater were actually EMPLOYED by Taravangian.
It's possible, but I doubt it. I don't have much confidence that street thugs could keep their mouths shut about something like this. Whoever Taravangian employed, it's someone he can trust to be discreet.
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Yeah. Yeah that sounds about right. He's not nearly as powerless as Jasnah made him out to be, either. Hell, maybe the thugs in that one alley near that theater were actually EMPLOYED by Taravangian.
But for what? Kill rich theater-goers? Cause that's what they did... The assault on Jasnah definitely wasn't planned - no sane plan relies on waiting for the victim to randomly choose to wander into a dangerous alley without protection.
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Yeah. Yeah that sounds about right. He's not nearly as powerless as Jasnah made him out to be, either. Hell, maybe the thugs in that one alley near that theater were actually EMPLOYED by Taravangian.
But for what? Kill rich theater-goers? Cause that's what they did... The assault on Jasnah definitely wasn't planned - no sane plan relies on waiting for the victim to randomly choose to wander into a dangerous alley without protection.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the thugs were just thugs. Who were subsequently unlucky enough to become the subject of a creative philosophy lesson. And now somebody has a new realistic statue.