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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: jjb on September 06, 2010, 07:24:58 AM

Title: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: jjb on September 06, 2010, 07:24:58 AM
I don't know if I completely missed something in the discussions or if no one cares about them, but I just reread the Prelude and now I'm interested in what has happened to the Heralds.

I know that nine of the ten abandoned the Oathpact, but what does that mean? They were immortal, so does that mean that they still live on Roshar, but just decided to stay out of the problems of the world? Or did they become mortal when they gave up their swords and they're 4500 years dead.

The one Herald who didn't betray the Oathpact, Talenel, died once again at the end of WoK, so now Roshar is completely on its own. His sword did not vanish at the end, so I assume that means he's out of the cycle of life, death, hell, life.

Does whoever picks up his sword take his place as a Herald or did they just win a Shardblade 2.0 with no responsibilities?



Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Nightfire107 on September 06, 2010, 07:55:16 AM
was the guy that dies talanel? i missed that.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: jjb on September 06, 2010, 08:18:29 AM
Yup.


Quote
p. 16
"Talanel," Kalak said. His was the only Blade unaccounted for."

Quote
p. 1001
"Who am I? I... I am Talanel'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty. The Desolation has come. Oh, God... it has come. And I have failed."
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Comatose on September 06, 2010, 09:33:26 AM
And how do the heralds fit in with shards and such?  Are they a higher or lower being?  Might hoid be one of the heralds?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 03:47:24 PM
Two other things that I'm curious about.

First off, what's the significance of Talanel having dark eyes? Hoid implies that there's something about the difference between lighteyes and darkeyes that's significant, but doesn't elaborate further.

Also, in the prologue, when Szeth is going to assassinate the king, he notes that the statue of Shalash is missing from the set of the ten Heralds. Do we know anything about this guy? Szeth says it's because the king is "too devout" in his Vorin worship.


You also might want to change the thread title to "major spoilers", since we're mentioning that Talanel shows up at the end and dies (maybe).
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: happyman on September 06, 2010, 04:53:30 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Talanel is not dead.  We're supposed to think he is at the end of the book, but that's because we've been carefully primed with all the Shardblades floating around.

Dawnblades act differently.  When their bearer dies, the blade disappears.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 05:20:04 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Talanel is not dead.  We're supposed to think he is at the end of the book, but that's because we've been carefully primed with all the Shardblades floating around.

Dawnblades act differently.  When their bearer dies, the blade disappears.
And even if Talanel died, that doesn't mean he won't come back. Kalak mentioned dying many times in the past, and he was still around.

No bets on how long it takes for him to return, though.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Chaos on September 06, 2010, 06:05:54 PM
I... I never read it as Talanel dying... Maybe I wasn't paying attention, however.

I don't know if I completely missed something in the discussions or if no one cares about them, but I just reread the Prelude and now I'm interested in what has happened to the Heralds.

I know that nine of the ten abandoned the Oathpact, but what does that mean? They were immortal, so does that mean that they still live on Roshar, but just decided to stay out of the problems of the world? Or did they become mortal when they gave up their swords and they're 4500 years dead.

The one Herald who didn't betray the Oathpact, Talenel, died once again at the end of WoK, so now Roshar is completely on its own. His sword did not vanish at the end, so I assume that means he's out of the cycle of life, death, hell, life.

Does whoever picks up his sword take his place as a Herald or did they just win a Shardblade 2.0 with no responsibilities?

Since its an "Oathpact", and it says that they chose their burdens willingly, they probably decided to create this Oathpact as a way to bind Odium/Voidbringers. Sounds reasonable to me.

And how do the heralds fit in with shards and such?  Are they a higher or lower being?  Might hoid be one of the heralds?

I'd imagine that the Heralds were given powers from the Almighty. Thus, the Heralds and the Knights Radiant below them have powers coming from that Shard.

I do not think Hoid could possibly be a Herald.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Fireborn on September 06, 2010, 06:15:24 PM
Well, depending on the time frame of when the Almighty made those visions that Dalinar is just now having, he could have died and the Heralds are Splinters, even though I'm not sure what that means exactly.

Where does it say that Talanel is Darkeyes?  Cuz that would be SO cool!
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
Where does it say that Talanel is Darkeyes?  Cuz that would be SO cool!
Last page of the book.
Quote
He steadied himself against the gate door, and a lock of hair moved from the side of his face, exposing his eyes. Dark brown eyes, like a man of the lower class. Those eyes were wild, dazed.

And yeah, I'm not convinced he died, either. That being said, do we know for sure that Dawnshards vanish when their wielders die?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Chaos on September 06, 2010, 06:43:09 PM
Reading it again, it seems like Taln just collapsed. That doesn't mean he died.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 06:51:13 PM
Reading it again, it seems like Taln just collapsed. That doesn't mean he died.
Well, it depends. If Dawnblades vanish when their wielder dies, then he's still alive. If they act like Shardblades and vanish when you go unconscious, and clatter down next to your body when you die, then he's a goner.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: happyman on September 06, 2010, 07:34:27 PM
Reading it again, it seems like Taln just collapsed. That doesn't mean he died.
Well, it depends. If Dawnblades vanish when their wielder dies, then he's still alive. If they act like Shardblades and vanish when you go unconscious, and clatter down next to your body when you die, then he's a goner.

Here's the relevant quote, from the prelude (page 16):

Quote
Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground.  Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns.  He recognized each one.  If their masters had died, the blades would have vanished.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: jjb on September 06, 2010, 07:41:45 PM
Reading it again, it seems like Taln just collapsed. That doesn't mean he died.
Well, it depends. If Dawnblades vanish when their wielder dies, then he's still alive. If they act like Shardblades and vanish when you go unconscious, and clatter down next to your body when you die, then he's a goner.

Here's the relevant quote, from the prelude (page 16):

Quote
Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground.  Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns.  He recognized each one.  If their masters had died, the blades would have vanished.

I guess I assumed too soon that Telanel had died. Him collapsing combined with saying that he had failed seemed to indicate to me that he was dead (the Desolation had come before and that didn't mean the Heralds had failed). But since the sword didn't vanish, he's probably still alive.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 08:51:23 PM
Reading it again, it seems like Taln just collapsed. That doesn't mean he died.
Well, it depends. If Dawnblades vanish when their wielder dies, then he's still alive. If they act like Shardblades and vanish when you go unconscious, and clatter down next to your body when you die, then he's a goner.

Here's the relevant quote, from the prelude (page 16):

Quote
Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground.  Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns.  He recognized each one.  If their masters had died, the blades would have vanished.
Well, it's also technically possible that Talanel was using a Shardblade instead of his Dawnshard, but I agree that he's probably not dead.

Not yet, at least.

This should prove very interesting in the second book. Will people not believe him because he's a darkeyes? Will they think he stole the blade? I could easily see him getting locked up somehow and separated from his sword... and I don't know if the Heralds have any other powers that would let him escape.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Chaos on September 06, 2010, 09:33:58 PM
Man, I sure hope he's a major viewpoint character in a later novel. That would be awesome.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 06, 2010, 09:49:43 PM
Man, I sure hope he's a major viewpoint character in a later novel. That would be awesome.
Agreed.

Although I'm afraid he won't be. He knows too much, and seeing things from his point of view could easily spoil plot points. I remember how limited the Vasher chapters were in Warbreaker, to avoid spoiling the surprise that he was a good guy. I mean, they still turned out well, but you didn't learn much about his character until you started seeing him through Vivenna's eyes.

We can still hope, though.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Chaos on September 06, 2010, 09:55:11 PM
Well, there's going to be ten different viewpoint characters like Kaladin (though there may be a second Kaladin book). Dalinar and Shallan, obviously, will get books. Szeth will get a book (squee!). Even with a second Kaladin book, that's five out of ten Stormlight Archive novels. [Source: that interview Josh, Mi'ch, and I did with Brandon for 17th Shard, which, um, hasn't come live yet. Soon!]

I'd think that Taln would get a very late book. Without him, we wouldn't get a unique perspective on certain things that have been lost forever. We wouldn't know as much about Hemalurgy in MB3 without Marsh's viewpoints, for example. I think that he will be a major character, but not for a while.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 07, 2010, 12:21:41 AM
So, no one has any ideas about the missing statue of Shalash in the prologue?

All I can think of is that maybe Shalash is female, and her statue doesn't fit modern standards in some way (not wearing the glove, etc.). But that's just me grasping at straws.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Nightfire107 on September 07, 2010, 01:11:08 AM
how do you know they are called dawnshards? what have i missed?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Comatose on September 07, 2010, 01:19:56 AM
Sudden thought:  We know the almighty is dead, right?  What if the Almighty is not a mere shard but is the severed concienceness of Whole Adonalsium?  The way he just repeats things in a loop to Dalinar in the visions kind of reminded me of the description of the Mistspirit?  I'm not sure what that would mean for the heralds though...

Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 07, 2010, 01:42:54 AM
how do you know they are called dawnshards? what have i missed?
There are several reference to dawnshards throughout the book. The first one to come to mind are when the Almighty is finally explaining things to Dalinar.
Sudden thought:  We know the almighty is dead, right?  What if the Almighty is not a mere shard but is the severed concienceness of Whole Adonalsium?  The way he just repeats things in a loop to Dalinar in the visions kind of reminded me of the description of the Mistspirit?  I'm not sure what that would mean for the heralds though...
I think it's more likely that the visions are just a recording.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Elusive Fehler on September 07, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
I think it's more likely that the visions are just a recording.

Mal. Guy killed me, Mal. He killed me with a sword. How weird is that?

Sorry but the idea of them being a recording makes sense, but this is what got stuck in my head.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: sdelu on September 08, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
Didn't Brandon explain a long time ago that there would be a viewpoint character who was an immortal breaking under the strain of saving the world (or some such thing?).  I think that sounds like it could very well be Taln....

As for the rest of the Heralds, well, I for one do not believe for a second that they are dead.

Well, there's going to be ten different viewpoint characters like Kaladin (though there may be a second Kaladin book). Dalinar and Shallan, obviously, will get books. Szeth will get a book (squee!). Even with a second Kaladin book, that's five out of ten Stormlight Archive novels. [Source: that interview Josh, Mi'ch, and I did with Brandon for 17th Shard, which, um, hasn't come live yet. Soon!]

Eh.  I'm not sure I'm very excited about that :(  10 viewpoint characters will eventually mean some are left out of the later books.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: jacobfake on September 08, 2010, 06:28:40 AM
As far as the Heralds being alive or not goes, if they die they're blades vanish, (quoted somewhere earlier in this thread) so if they're still alive, then where are the blades? It's possible they're like off in a distant land (wherever the prelude takes place) but if the Parshmen are voidbringers that would be like shattered plains or the Parshendi homeland, plus on US Hardcover 997 the Almighty says "And...without the Dawnshards...Well, I have done what I can." seeming to imply that the Dawnshards are no longer accessible to humans, as in gone because the Heralds are dead. Also, in the prelude Kalak says that the Heralds freely took up the burden of being heralds, as in they were normal men before, which would seem to imply that once they abandon the oathpact they go back to being mortal and die.
    -one thing, though, is that the Almighty seems to imply that there will be no Dawnshards available to humans and yet when Taln shows up it seems like it's "Oh hey I just got released from suffering because another desolation is here." which would seem to mean that he will be fighting on their side and that that shardblade will be available to them. But maybe the Almighty just meant like without all the shardblades.

     -also, what's up with the Heralds even suffering in between Desolations in the first place? That seems to be the Oathpact, but I originally read it like suffering in hell, which would seem more like guys on Odium's side than the Almighty. It's possible they like agreed to suffer in order to wield amazing powers, and that's what the Oathpact was, except where are they suffering and why would Odium ever agree to that deal/ if he didn't then who did?

      -also, if he came back for the last desolation, why does he collapse? What's he so tired out from, and how could he not have failed? Does anyone want to take a guess on what his time line is for the story? As in, first he's betrayed and sent to suffer. Then the last desolation comes and he's released. Then he goes to Kholinar to help out. Except, what happened immediately before going to Kholinar or if nothing then what does he think he did wrong?

I guess I'm mostly just looking for more theories on these things.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Fireborn on September 08, 2010, 07:15:17 AM
I think it's more likely that the visions are just a recording.

Mal. Guy killed me, Mal. He killed me with a sword. How weird is that?

Sorry but the idea of them being a recording makes sense, but this is what got stuck in my head.
lol
Didn't Brandon explain a long time ago that there would be a viewpoint character who was an immortal breaking under the strain of saving the world (or some such thing?).  I think that sounds like it could very well be Taln....

As for the rest of the Heralds, well, I for one do not believe for a second that they are dead.

Well, there's going to be ten different viewpoint characters like Kaladin (though there may be a second Kaladin book). Dalinar and Shallan, obviously, will get books. Szeth will get a book (squee!). Even with a second Kaladin book, that's five out of ten Stormlight Archive novels. [Source: that interview Josh, Mi'ch, and I did with Brandon for 17th Shard, which, um, hasn't come live yet. Soon!]

Eh.  I'm not sure I'm very excited about that :(  10 viewpoint characters will eventually mean some are left out of the later books.
What he means is, and I heard Brandon say this at one of his signings (in answer to a question I asked! squee!), that each book focuses around a particular character.  But that person is not the only viewpoint we get.  In WoK, the main character is Kaladin.  He gets the majority of the pages, all the flashbacks are for his storyline, the major character climaxes tend to be his, etc.  The way he put it is that WoK is "six short stories (interludes), a novella(Szeth's chapters, interludes, and the prologue) and three novels (Shallan, Dalinar and Kaladin, but with the emphasis on Kaladin) all in one book."  Each book will have a different character be presented in the way Kaladin is here.  And we're going to get a ton more of different viewpoints as the story goes on in the form of interludes and major characters like Shallan and Dalinar.  Overall, a freakin buttload of stuff.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Minor Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 20, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
So, no one has any ideas about the missing statue of Shalash in the prologue?

All I can think of is that maybe Shalash is female, and her statue doesn't fit modern standards in some way (not wearing the glove, etc.). But that's just me grasping at straws.

The whole thing with the statue of Shalash bothered me too, but we never got any hints about it.  Another thing I was bothered by that we get no explanation on:
Quote
Tiny, near-invisible spren were floating out of the beast’s body, vanishing into the air. They looked like the tongues of smoke that might come off a candle after being snuff ed. Nobody knew what kind of spren they were; you only saw them around the freshly killed bodies of greatshells.

I posted this in another thread, but figured it bore repeating since it was mentioned in this one.  Seems from this interview, that Taln will a POV character:  http://yetistomper.blogspot.com/2010/09/brandon-sanderson-interview-stompingmad.html
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: zarepath on September 20, 2010, 02:49:40 AM
Is it possible that the guy is just freaking exhausted from suffering infinite torment for hundreds of years? 

The fact that it looked as if he had just swam a great distance seems, to me, to suggest that he just zapped in from wherever shardblades come from... you know, how they're coated in moisture when they first zap in?  He was coated in moisture, too. 

Of course, there's also the mention of the twigs and leaves in his beard, which is pretty friggin' weird, too.  Don't know how to explain that.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 20, 2010, 03:25:31 AM
Is it possible that the guy is just freaking exhausted from suffering infinite torment for hundreds of years? 

The fact that it looked as if he had just swam a great distance seems, to me, to suggest that he just zapped in from wherever shardblades come from... you know, how they're coated in moisture when they first zap in?  He was coated in moisture, too. 

Of course, there's also the mention of the twigs and leaves in his beard, which is pretty friggin' weird, too.  Don't know how to explain that.
Maybe he was fighting in a forest, then traveled through the Shardrealm (for lack of a better word)?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 20, 2010, 07:54:10 AM
I have a wild theory.

The Heralds entered into an oathpact which basically helps stop the voidbringers from taking over, but we have no idea what it is.

From what I have thought about, I think the oathpact basically states that the Heralds will fight the voidbringers on Roshar using a splinter from one of the shards (whether or not it is the Almighty or another shard I don't know) which is physically manifested in the dawnshard. But once the desolation is over they must go to this mysterious other place (Shadesmar possibly) and endur years of torture, in which that time the voidbringers are powerless, mindless creatures known as parshmen. But after some time the Heralds can no longer take the torture and return to Roshar, at which time the voidbringers come again, they fight, they win and return for more torture in an endless cycle.

Talenel has thus failed because he finally cracked under the torture and the voidbringers are returning for another desolation.

***

Completely separate, I think the Heralds that gave up on the Oathpact are still alive. When I read the prelude all those months ago I was under the impression that the Heralds could only be killed, not die from natural deaths, and their dawnshards are untouchable by anyone but them, just sitting there waiting for them to return and claim their blades. However I have no proof for this other than making a nice story.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 20, 2010, 07:57:08 PM
that doesnt explain the parshendi, but it is a really good idea, and i have been hoping that all of the heralds are still around, i was actually hoping that the interlude characters were the heralds, or some of them were.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 21, 2010, 05:04:48 AM
that doesnt explain the parshendi, but it is a really good idea, and i have been hoping that all of the heralds are still around, i was actually hoping that the interlude characters were the heralds, or some of them were.

The parshendi are just those parshman that have already been activiated into 'voidbringer' mode. Taln may have given up years ago, but it may have taken years for him to finally manifest on Roshar. I have a theory on another post which pretty much says that the strange things that people are saying when they're about to die are related to Taln's soul trying to get back on Roshar. Notice how alot of the quotes somehow focus on Taln or the heralds. Since these events started happening the same time the parshendi appeared, this might be when Taln finally broke under the torture and tried to escape/return to Roshar.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 21, 2010, 07:07:52 PM
that doesnt explain the parshendi, but it is a really good idea, and i have been hoping that all of the heralds are still around, i was actually hoping that the interlude characters were the heralds, or some of them were.

The parshendi are just those parshman that have already been activiated into 'voidbringer' mode. Taln may have given up years ago, but it may have taken years for him to finally manifest on Roshar. I have a theory on another post which pretty much says that the strange things that people are saying when they're about to die are related to Taln's soul trying to get back on Roshar. Notice how alot of the quotes somehow focus on Taln or the heralds. Since these events started happening the same time the parshendi appeared, this might be when Taln finally broke under the torture and tried to escape/return to Roshar.

Parshendi don't seem quite as simple as "parshmen activated into voidbringer' mode", they seem to have too much society and culture, and if their only goal was the destruction of the other races, they aren't going about it in a very effective way.  Really, only one quote seems to focus on Taln, one on the Heralds, and 1 that looks like it might on Heralds or Radiants (you went with Heralds).  I suppose you could credit a few vague ones with them, but it's far from definite. 

Did the Parshendi not start growing armor until after they started battling on the Shattered Plains?  I don't see it mentioned in the books Shallan was reading or by Dalinar when Jasnah asked him to retell the story of their first encounter with the Parshendi, even though they mention their high quality weaponry in both places.

I wonder if Thresh traded Szeth directly to the Parshendi, or if there were more trades between.  How exactly did Szeth know that the end of the world was coming soon back in the Prologue?  These last two things might be unrelated.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: MissGnomer on September 21, 2010, 09:43:06 PM
I have a wild theory.

The Heralds entered into an oathpact which basically helps stop the voidbringers from taking over, but we have no idea what it is.

From what I have thought about, I think the oathpact basically states that the Heralds will fight the voidbringers on Roshar using a splinter from one of the shards (whether or not it is the Almighty or another shard I don't know) which is physically manifested in the dawnshard. But once the desolation is over they must go to this mysterious other place (Shadesmar possibly) and endur years of torture, in which that time the voidbringers are powerless, mindless creatures known as parshmen. But after some time the Heralds can no longer take the torture and return to Roshar, at which time the voidbringers come again, they fight, they win and return for more torture in an endless cycle.

Talenel has thus failed because he finally cracked under the torture and the voidbringers are returning for another desolation.

***

Completely separate, I think the Heralds that gave up on the Oathpact are still alive. When I read the prelude all those months ago I was under the impression that the Heralds could only be killed, not die from natural deaths, and their dawnshards are untouchable by anyone but them, just sitting there waiting for them to return and claim their blades. However I have no proof for this other than making a nice story.

Ooh, that's really good.  Why else would the Heralds agree to torture, if not for the sake of Roshar?  If your theory is correct, when one Herald cracks, do they all come back...??  How could Taln have lasted 4500 years?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 22, 2010, 01:01:24 AM
I have a wild theory.

The Heralds entered into an oathpact which basically helps stop the voidbringers from taking over, but we have no idea what it is.

From what I have thought about, I think the oathpact basically states that the Heralds will fight the voidbringers on Roshar using a splinter from one of the shards (whether or not it is the Almighty or another shard I don't know) which is physically manifested in the dawnshard. But once the desolation is over they must go to this mysterious other place (Shadesmar possibly) and endur years of torture, in which that time the voidbringers are powerless, mindless creatures known as parshmen. But after some time the Heralds can no longer take the torture and return to Roshar, at which time the voidbringers come again, they fight, they win and return for more torture in an endless cycle.

Talenel has thus failed because he finally cracked under the torture and the voidbringers are returning for another desolation.
There's more than one Dawnshard, since the Almighty uses the word as a plural.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 22, 2010, 11:20:35 AM
Ooh, that's really good.  Why else would the Heralds agree to torture, if not for the sake of Roshar?  If your theory is correct, when one Herald cracks, do they all come back...??  How could Taln have lasted 4500 years?

Maybe time in "Hell" (as I will call it for lack of a better word) is different from Roshar time. So while 4500 years passed on Roshar, maybe less time passed in 'Hell'.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: lordofsoup on September 22, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
There are people in Roshar that live a ridiculously long time.  There was that weird scholar dude, who could change his skin color that was immortal beyond normal people. 
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 22, 2010, 04:37:22 PM
There are people in Roshar that live a ridiculously long time.  There was that weird scholar dude, who could change his skin color that was immortal beyond normal people. 
Maybe Axies is a Knowledgespren!
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 22, 2010, 05:28:15 PM
axies is kind of strange, it seems like he had already been alive for centuries, and the prospect of living a few more didnt seem to bother him, and i highly doubt that his entire race was able to live that long or there would be a lot more around
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 22, 2010, 08:36:37 PM
The parshendi are just those parshman that have already been activiated into 'voidbringer' mode.

The Parshendi are intelligent Parshman, but we don't know if they're completely into voidbringer mode. Several times, they're called creatures of ash and flame. Jasnah thinks this is because their description has become more fantastical over the millennium, but we also have death quotes where they're described as burning/flaming.

Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 23, 2010, 07:53:12 AM
Oh, I came up with a funny/dumb theory about Shalash's missing statue in the prologue.  It works though, assuming that the Heralds are immortal and have powers beyond the average person.
Quote
Szeth left the feasting chamber behind. Just outside, he passed the doorway into the Beggars’ Feast. It was an Alethi tradition, a room where some of the poorest men and women in the city were given a feast complementing that of the king and his guests. A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly—though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell.
“Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin. So it was drink after all. Szeth brushed by, continuing past a line of statues depicting the Ten Heralds from ancient Vorin theology. Jezerezeh, Ishi, Kelek, Talenelat. He counted off each one, and realized there were only nine here. One was conspicuously missing. Why had Shalash’s statue been removed? King Gavilar was said to be very devout in his Vorin worship. Too devout, by some people’s standards.

The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on September 23, 2010, 09:43:04 AM
After such a long time, you have to be a little bit queer.
I like your theory CN.
The one about the suffering of the heralds bindig the voidbringers makes a lot of sense too.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Kykeon on September 23, 2010, 09:47:48 AM
The parshendi are just those parshman that have already been activiated into 'voidbringer' mode.

The Parshendi are intelligent Parshman, but we don't know if they're completely into voidbringer mode. Several times, they're called creatures of ash and flame. Jasnah thinks this is because their description has become more fantastical over the millennium, but we also have death quotes where they're described as burning/flaming.


Here is what I think:
The parsheman is the core being, that needs to be "fueled" to develop intelligence.
Maybe that's what they need the gemhearts for, to provied magical energy for their next transformation.
Or maybe each voidbringer needs an entire gemheart
 implanted in them to work as their stormlight storage.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: gideon on September 23, 2010, 03:51:34 PM
I agree that the Heralds aren't dead.  I also think there is something to the fact that Talenel returned to Alethkar.  I wonder if the other Heralds are "ruling" in some form the other kingdoms.  Could Taravangian be a Herald?  Remember that they all broke.  As for where the battle in the Prelude was fought, I suspect it was the shattered plains.  Subtle things as I re-read it made me think of that.  In particular, that the Heralds met at the tower, so I think their swords are there, but covered in stone(crem).

Also, why do people assume Jasneh was correct that the voidbringers are the Parshendi?  That's her theory, but the thunderclast in the Prelude seems more like an actual voidbringer.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on September 23, 2010, 05:49:42 PM
I've always thought it likely that Voidbringer doesn't refer to a specific creature, but rather to a group of creatures, encompassing Thunderclasts, likely the Parshendi, and whatever other fighters are working during the desolations.
I can't see Thunderclasts as being the only Voidbringer, as Nohadon, when talking to Dalinar in his vision, mentions that the desolation lasted for eleven years. Also remember from the pre-prologue that everyone who could hold a weapon was fighting. Only someone with incredibly heavy equipment or a shardblade can engage a thunderclast, so if they are the only voidbringer, why have spearmen and the like fighting?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 24, 2010, 07:54:24 AM
Oh, I came up with a funny/dumb theory about Shalash's missing statue in the prologue.  It works though, assuming that the Heralds are immortal and have powers beyond the average person.
Quote
Szeth left the feasting chamber behind. Just outside, he passed the doorway into the Beggars’ Feast. It was an Alethi tradition, a room where some of the poorest men and women in the city were given a feast complementing that of the king and his guests. A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly—though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell.
“Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin. So it was drink after all. Szeth brushed by, continuing past a line of statues depicting the Ten Heralds from ancient Vorin theology. Jezerezeh, Ishi, Kelek, Talenelat. He counted off each one, and realized there were only nine here. One was conspicuously missing. Why had Shalash’s statue been removed? King Gavilar was said to be very devout in his Vorin worship. Too devout, by some people’s standards.

The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.

I actually like that theory. When I first read that passage and noticed the missing statute, I was like somethings going on here. I though maybe Shalash was in Alethi at the time and hid the statute to not be recognised, but I never considered the drunk to be Shalash.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 24, 2010, 08:18:18 AM
Quote
I actually like that theory. When I first read that passage and noticed the missing statute, I was like somethings going on here. I though maybe Shalash was in Alethi at the time and hid the statute to not be recognised, but I never considered the drunk to be Shalash.
It's been 4 and half thousand years, it's questionable how well the statues actually resemble them at this point. Their names have been altered to fit the religious principles, after all.  Honestly, it's not a great theory, but it's the best I can come up with at this point.  And it's funny.  Shalash is probably upset that Galinar's assassination overshadowed his practical joke, and will go into hiding the rest of the series, as he sulks.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 24, 2010, 08:29:28 AM
Also, why do people assume Jasneh was correct that the voidbringers are the Parshendi?  

Two reasons.

1) We have so many blank spots in our knowledge that to simply discount her statement leaves us with little to work with.

2) We're told repeatedly that she's intelligent and dedicated scholar, and that she's spent a large amount of time and effort studying accounts of the Voidbringers. I doubt she's 100% accurate (we're only 1/10th of the way through the story) but for her to be completely off undermines her character and the impact of that scene.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 24, 2010, 07:04:57 PM
I was under the impression that Shalash was a girl and did not have her safe hand covered, and since that is pornographic in Alethi culture, the statue was hidden from view
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 24, 2010, 07:19:55 PM
I was under the impression that Shalash was a girl and did not have her safe hand covered, and since that is pornographic in Alethi culture, the statue was hidden from view
I don't think we know that for sure. I posted that as a guess at one point, but that theory was basically pulled out of thin air.

Personally, I think there is something more going on.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Morsker on September 24, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.

I had something like this idea on one of the other fan sites, and the main objection I got was that Shalash is almost certainly female, because of the similarity to Shallan's name, and because 5/7 remaining Heralds are female. The drunk was standing between Szeth and a row of Herald statues when he asked, "Have you seen me?" though, which I think is very suspicious. So even if he isn't Shalash, maybe this guy is a Herald who tried to hide as a beggar and forget his past, then got too drunk and started blabbing it to Szeth.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 24, 2010, 08:45:58 PM
The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.
I guess the theory makes a lot of sense, but t seems kind of silly to me, why would a herald be around an Alethi peace treaty? one would think Hoid would recognize him.  The druk guy could be Dalinar, he said that when his brother was killed he was dead drunk
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Raketen on September 24, 2010, 08:51:23 PM
The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.
I guess the theory makes a lot of sense, but t seems kind of silly to me, why would a herald be around an Alethi peace treaty? one would think Hoid would recognize him.  The druk guy could be Dalinar, he said that when his brother was killed he was dead drunk

Long time lurker first time posting bla bla bla.

Can we even be certain Hoid is a herald and on a simular note, was he the wit back then? It is refered to in the book that he has been the wit for longer then most but I think he was training Sigzil at that point, thoughts?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 24, 2010, 08:53:26 PM
I dont think Hoid is a herald, and I guess it does make sense that he wasnt wit at the time
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: rjl on September 24, 2010, 09:20:17 PM
The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.
I guess the theory makes a lot of sense, but t seems kind of silly to me, why would a herald be around an Alethi peace treaty? one would think Hoid would recognize him.  The druk guy could be Dalinar, he said that when his brother was killed he was dead drunk

Long time lurker first time posting bla bla bla.

Can we even be certain Hoid is a herald and on a simular note, was he the wit back then? It is refered to in the book that he has been the wit for longer then most but I think he was training Sigzil at that point, thoughts?
I think we can be pretty certain that Hoid is not a herald...

I think what guy was getting at was that Hoid would likely recognise a Herald and would probably be there as Wit.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 24, 2010, 10:28:14 PM
I assumed the drunk at the party was Dalinar.

He remarks later that he's angry at himself because while his brother was killed, he was passed out from drinking.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on September 24, 2010, 10:30:10 PM
If you reread the prologue, you'll notice that Szeth recognizes "the King's brother" at one of the tables, either very drunk or already passed out (can't remember which). The "Have you seen me?" drunk is not Dalinar.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 24, 2010, 10:33:48 PM
Thank you. I'd forgotten that.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 24, 2010, 10:59:36 PM
The drunk guy is actually Shalash, and he got rid of his statue using his Heraldic powers because he thought it would be a good practical joke.  He's not actually speaking in gibberish, just a language unknown to Szeth.

I had something like this idea on one of the other fan sites, and the main objection I got was that Shalash is almost certainly female, because of the similarity to Shallan's name, and because 5/7 remaining Heralds are female. The drunk was standing between Szeth and a row of Herald statues when he asked, "Have you seen me?" though, which I think is very suspicious. So even if he isn't Shalash, maybe this guy is a Herald who tried to hide as a beggar and forget his past, then got too drunk and started blabbing it to Szeth.

It's not a great theory or anything, it's just all I can come up with on the limited information we have.  I'm glad and amused to read that I'm not the only one who has thought it up.   Shalash does sound like one of the more feminine names, but there isn't really enough to make a definitive statement.

Where/when did we get a gender breakdown of the Heralds?

Nevermind, I found it. 
Quote
He began walking, leading Adolin around the back rim of the temple chamber. They passed statues of the Heralds, five male, five female. In truth, Adolin knew very little of what Kadash was saying. He’d never had much of a mind for history that didn’t relate directly to the command of armies.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Dryone on September 25, 2010, 11:36:06 PM
Shalash is Baxis' mistress in one of the interludes. She's on a quest to destroy any picture or statue of herself, that's why her statue is missing.

Thanks for the quote with the gender breakdown, I missed that!
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Raketen on September 26, 2010, 01:22:26 AM
Shalash is Baxis' mistress in one of the interludes. She's on a quest to destroy any picture or statue of herself, that's why her statue is missing.

Oh my! I overlocked that completely. I always wondered what that interlude was about, makes sence now! Thank you.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 26, 2010, 02:02:31 AM
I agree there. There is too much coincidence between a missing statute of Shalash and a woman who destroys artworks. Note that the first painting she destroyed was of Epan, Lady of Dreams. This could be another name for Shalash, especially if she has been around for the last 4,500 years.

I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 26, 2010, 04:46:39 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 26, 2010, 05:00:26 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.
Which would make you wonder, what was so shaming that she no longer wants people to look at her>
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Morsker on September 26, 2010, 05:07:57 AM
Which would make you wonder, what was so shaming that she no longer wants people to look at her>
Maybe she realizes the True Desolation is coming, and expects everyone to hate her and the other 8 heralds that abandoned Taln. So she'd rather be forgotten instead.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 26, 2010, 05:48:25 AM
My personal theory is that Shalash is the Herald associated with one of the Soulcasting orders of the Radiants.  More specifically, the Soulcasting order that used the same form as Shallan.  We know that there's something magical about Shallan's drawings, and the way she transfers a Memory, which seems to have some paranormal significance the way she thinks about it, into her art.  There's some kind of magic or power in these Memories and they go into her artwork, and I think it has to be tied to her form of Soulcasting.  Maybe its storing power in the artwork or maybe its fueling certain mystical properties in the artwork...either way, I think the same thing happened with pictures or representations of Shalash or her various incarnations, like this Epani, Lady of Dreams.  (Seems like it could be a fitting title for a Herald who Soulcasts and has possible ties to a magical art form as well).  I think that all these statues or paintings of her were Memories of her that were put into art work by whatever you would call these Soulcasting artisans...and maybe this took some power away from her, or imprisoned some of her power amongst the representations of her, or maybe she had it done to store some of her power, like a safe for Stormlight or whatever fuels her particular power or brand of magic...a way to preserve it over the millennia.  And either way, now that the final Desolation is on its way, she needs this power back, and so is systematically destroying representations of herself and recovering the Memories or pieces of herself or her power that are contained within the artwork.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 26, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.
Which would make you wonder, what was so shaming that she no longer wants people to look at her>
Abandoning the Oathpact, of course.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 26, 2010, 06:20:59 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.

Or she's 4,500 years old, and nuts.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 26, 2010, 09:03:00 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.
Which would make you wonder, what was so shaming that she no longer wants people to look at her>
Abandoning the Oathpact, of course.

Then why not destroy the artworks earlier? Or stop them from ever being created?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Dryone on September 26, 2010, 10:50:41 AM
I think she destroys the artworks because she's vain and doesn't like how they make her look.
Or because she's ashamed of what she did, and doesn't like other people looking at her.
Which would make you wonder, what was so shaming that she no longer wants people to look at her>
Abandoning the Oathpact, of course.

Then why not destroy the artworks earlier? Or stop them from ever being created?

The heralds were already worshiped before they left the oathpact, so there should be plenty statues and images around. I guess she tried to live a "normal" live for some time, but then needed some kind of quest/hobby to keep her from going insane - err, even more insane.

And of course the bloody people keep on creating statues - there is a complete set of herald statues in Kholin's warcamp.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 26, 2010, 05:01:44 PM
Shalash is Baxis' mistress in one of the interludes. She's on a quest to destroy any picture or statue of herself, that's why her statue is missing.

Thanks for the quote with the gender breakdown, I missed that!

Super delicious, I love it.  This is now the theory I'm supporting.  The other thing was funny, but way too weak.

also, epigraph:
Quote
16.“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.”—Dated Palahevan,
Quote
“The Heralds aren’t gods,” Teft scoffed.
“To you they aren’t,” Sigzil said. “Others regard them differently. The Emuli have what your scholars like to call a splinter religion—containing some Vorin ideas. But to the Emuli, you would be the splinter religion.” Sigzil seemed to find that amusing, though Teft just scowled.
Quote
Yes, the mistress claimed that the palace servants would be busy getting the new guest wing ready, but this was the home of Ashno of Sages himself. One of the richest and holiest men in all of Emul. He had hundreds of servants. What if one of them walked down this hallway?

Doesn't explain why she seems to take satisfaction in the destruction, but maybe that's just her personality. (A shardblade might be too easy, she states.)

Edit: added some quotes.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Morsker on September 26, 2010, 05:45:19 PM
Baxis' mistress is definitely a better explanation for the missing statue, but it leaves the beggar unexplained.

I already had one guess for why she's destroying them, but another is that she sees it as penance for her betrayal, and she's trying to redeem herself and believes she should suffer as long as Taln suffers. Doing it with a Shardblade would make it too easy, not painful enough to serve as penance.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Dryone on September 26, 2010, 05:54:07 PM
The beggar could be Jezrien. Man in his 30ies with black, short trimmed beard + 4500 years = beggar with long black/gray beard.

It would also fit the "King becomes beggar" theme BS used in Elantris.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Munin on September 26, 2010, 06:10:20 PM
The beggar could be Jezrien. Man in his 30ies with black, short trimmed beard + 4500 years = beggar with long black/gray beard.

It would also fit the "King becomes beggar" theme BS used in Elantris.
Yeah, but the only connection there is that they both have beards.  By that reasoning, Rock could also be Jezrien.

Although, now that I think about that, Rock as a Herald would be completely awesome.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Morsker on September 26, 2010, 07:22:47 PM
I considered Jezrien too, but I think the discrepancy between black and gray/black beards rules him out. If Baxis' mistress is a Herald, we can be pretty sure they don't age.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 26, 2010, 08:42:04 PM
See  "Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*" topic for additional evidence for Baxil's mistress being Shalash.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: ErikHolmes on September 26, 2010, 11:05:38 PM
Ok, I have a wild theory about he Heralds. Its just complete speculation at this point but I'll post it anyway.

So we know that Jezrien is called the Stormfather by some, but when we see him he doesn't seem very stormfatherish. One the other hand, that face Kaladin sees during the highstorm seems pretty Stormfatherish to me.

We know there is a connection between Kaladin and his powers and Syl. My thought is that maybe there is a connection between the Heralds and even more powerful Sprens.

This is just a guess but I'm thinking that the face we see in the storm is a powerful spren and that its Jezrien's spren. My guess is that each of the Heralds is connected to some godlike spren, which in turn makes them godlike themselves.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 26, 2010, 11:26:56 PM
Hmm, that's possible.  There clearly are spren much larger and more powerful than Syl, such as the sea spren in Axies the Collector's interlude, and that could actually be the point of that particular interlude....showing us a glimpse of these godlike spren that bond with the Heralds. 

In fact, a few people have proposed that spren are splinters of the Almight's shard, much like Seons are thought to be the splinters of Aona's in Elantris...the problem with this theory has always been that spren and the Heralds and the Knights Radiant seem to be in existence while the Almighty is still alive, before Odium kills him....but is there anything to say that the Almighty couldn't have splintered his own power or shard long before his death?  Not enough to leave him powerless, but definitely carving off slivers of his own Shard or power to share amongst the Heralds and Orders in the form of spren, segmenting his own divinity as it were.  This could be what enables Odium to kill him in the first place...his power is too spread out, shared amongst his Heralds and throughout the world in the form of lesser spren to effectively fight back.

I'm thinking about how Brandon's confirmed that the Returned in Warbreaker are supposedly Splinters, but nothing in the book or elsewhere suggests there is another Shard on that world other than Endowment, who definitely seems to be alive still, at least as there's a voice that talks to the Returned before they are sent back.  Who says Shardholders have to be dead for their Shards to be splintered?  Maybe they can splinter their own voluntarily.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 05:56:53 PM
if the heralds were bound to those superspren, then where are the spren now? one would think they would be able to bond with another person, making them heralds, rather than just leaving nine out of ten of them gone from the face of the earth
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 06:51:32 PM
Well that could be the point, that the Heralds aren't gone.  The speculation about Shalash being Baxtil's mistress would seem to indicate that they haven't performed their duties, but they're still very much alive and wandering the earth...which would mean their superspren (lol) are still bonded to them and not really evident to other people.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 06:56:14 PM
well then what happens to the spren when the heralds go to whatever hell they go to while waiting for the desolations? I suppose the spren Axies saw could be Talns, but then why does it look towards the origin whenever it appears?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on September 27, 2010, 07:02:06 PM
Because that's where Taln will come from?
If it is indeed Taln's superspren, and waiting for him.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 07:04:40 PM
I thought that heralds return where they died, because all of the desolations take place on the shattered plains, which is why Talenel was at the shattered plains at the end
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on September 27, 2010, 07:08:51 PM
No... Talanel was met by Hoid at Kholinar, the Alethi capital. I suspect that he had just ridden a Highstorm* from the origin of storms to somewhere in Alethkar, landed in a place with lots of bushes/trees (a Rosharian forest, perhaps) then run to the closest place where he knows where civilization will be, to the nearest dawncity. Kholinar.
Having ridden a highstorm and crashlanded, then run some distance, he is absolutely exhausted and collapses after entering the city.

*I seem to remember one of the mythological powers ascribed to the Knights Radiant was riding on the storms.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 07:55:27 PM
or he could have teleported, but why was he so exhausted, it would be pointless to teleport if it made you pass out, and if he was that exhausted before, I dont think he could have teleported. therefore the shattered plains is where he appeared
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Erunion on September 27, 2010, 10:20:10 PM
WHoa whoa whoa... That's a bit of a leap. If he was teleporting, he could have appeared anywhere. If he was going to appear on the Shattered Plains, why didn't Hoid just wait for him there? Wouldn't it have been easier?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Galavantes on September 27, 2010, 11:55:16 PM
 I'm not sure I support the idea that the heralds have bonded superspren.....because its sort of cheesy.....but mechanically it DOES fit. After all syl has gotten noticably larger in just the short time she has been bonded to Kaladin, so it is fair to presume that after 4500 years they could get pretty damn big.

Personally I don't think there were any spren around when the Heralds were active, the herald in the proloque ( I suck at remembering names) never mentioned them, even in passing. He didn't think of his own spren, or note any pain/fear spren on a giant battlefield. Also dalinar doesn't mention a single spren in any of his visions...

My first thought is that if the almightys shard truely is splintered...then spren are a likely candidate for being the result, which is why they aren't in dalinars visions, since the almighty was still active then.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 28, 2010, 02:01:38 AM
if the heralds were bound to those superspren, then where are the spren now? one would think they would be able to bond with another person, making them heralds, rather than just leaving nine out of ten of them gone from the face of the earth

I don't think Herald's bonded superspren as much as the Herald's spren became superspren. Look at Syl. At first she was a small spren, easily mistaken for a windspren, with no form and only a bit of power to bond things together.

By the end of the book she has formed consciousness, taken a more substantial form, is now much bigger and more powerful (though this power manifests through Kaladin.

I think the power of the bond is what makes spren stonger and larger.

And I doubt Axies is a herald. If he was, Brandon would've given at least a little hint about it. But he is special. That much is true.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Never on September 28, 2010, 03:14:27 AM
No... Talanel was met by Hoid at Kholinar, the Alethi capital. I suspect that he had just ridden a Highstorm* from the origin of storms to somewhere in Alethkar, landed in a place with lots of bushes/trees (a Rosharian forest, perhaps) then run to the closest place where he knows where civilization will be, to the nearest dawncity. Kholinar.
Having ridden a highstorm and crashlanded, then run some distance, he is absolutely exhausted and collapses after entering the city.

*I seem to remember one of the mythological powers ascribed to the Knights Radiant was riding on the storms.

He's not a windrider, that's a different order.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: jacobfake on September 28, 2010, 03:36:22 AM


Personally I don't think there were any spren around when the Heralds were active, the herald in the proloque ( I suck at remembering names) never mentioned them, even in passing. He didn't think of his own spren, or note any pain/fear spren on a giant battlefield. Also dalinar doesn't mention a single spren in any of his visions...



Nohadon said "alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" in one of Dalinar's visions.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Galavantes on September 28, 2010, 05:10:10 AM


Personally I don't think there were any spren around when the Heralds were active, the herald in the proloque ( I suck at remembering names) never mentioned them, even in passing. He didn't think of his own spren, or note any pain/fear spren on a giant battlefield. Also dalinar doesn't mention a single spren in any of his visions...



Nohadon said "alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" in one of Dalinar's visions.

Hmm yeah I'd forgotten about that. Still there is a conspicuous lack of spren everywhere else, I'm not willing to believe Brandon just forgot to include them. There has to be a reason they aren't mentioned.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Ari54 on September 28, 2010, 07:54:18 AM
Nohadon said "alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" in one of Dalinar's visions.

Hmm yeah I'd forgotten about that. Still there is a conspicuous lack of spren everywhere else, I'm not willing to believe Brandon just forgot to include them. There has to be a reason they aren't mentioned.

It could just be the "white room effect" where Dalinar simply wasn't paying attention to the Spren, but it is a little suspicious. I wouldn't call it a huge thing, though.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: jcats on September 28, 2010, 09:14:27 PM
an idea I had, which I'm sure no one else will like,  what if Spren, are Cultivations Magic/Gift?   I know, I know, it would be nice if their Just the Almighty's shards, but what if?

My theory runs this way, spren are Drawn to Extreme States of Being.  in essance, Pain, Anger, Death, Honor, Life etc.  Syl is the only Spren we've seen that's Bonded to a person, so I'm basing this theory on her Actions.   how does she act?  mostly, like a conscious, or guide, prodding Kaladein out of his Depressions, and away from Suicidal thoughts.  She grows over the course of the book, gaining memories, personality, and understanding, which she uses on Kaladein to enhance his life.  This might be the Purpose of Spren, as Guides to Enhance/Grown/Cultivate people into "better" versions.   Honorspren are Attracted to people who display Honor, and they Encourage it.  Truthspren seem to also function the same way,  Shallen had to speak a "Truth" in order to use her gift, but she didn't Lose that Truth, instead she has to Face it, Remember it, and Grow from Using it.

this brings to mind a possibility, the most commen Spren seen in Elhkoars presence has been Gloryspren, one wonders what ability's they have?


anyway, that's my crazy theory, please, shoot holes in it?
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: KhyEllie on September 28, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
sorry to jump right over your questions, but I don't have many theories on that:)

it just made me think: what do we know about Szeth? does he/did he have an honorspren bonded to him? After finishing, i had automatically assumed that Szeth had a spren, and just wasn't mentioning it, but maybe that's not right. I'm just delving into all the ideas on WoK now, so I might be behind on some things, sorry:)
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 29, 2010, 12:51:59 AM
sorry to jump right over your questions, but I don't have many theories on that:)

it just made me think: what do we know about Szeth? does he/did he have an honorspren bonded to him? After finishing, i had automatically assumed that Szeth had a spren, and just wasn't mentioning it, but maybe that's not right. I'm just delving into all the ideas on WoK now, so I might be behind on some things, sorry:)

I think there are about 2 or 3 different posts discussing this at the moment. I'm pretty sure that to use stormlight you must have some sort of spren bond.

Personally, I think Szeth's Oathstone is a fabriel-like contraption made by the stone sharman that traps the spren and allows him to surgebind.

Other's believe that he has so much honour that he is definitely bonded to an honourspren, just like Kaladin.

Then others think differently again. Just take your pick, or feel free to create your own theory.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 29, 2010, 06:14:50 PM
feel free to create your own theory.
thank you, I think I will.  Szeth can surbind because he is clearly the descendent of a Herald, that explains the whole voidbingers do/do not exist conflict of his, the heralds founded Shin and told everybody that the voidbringers were gone, he discovered that they were lying through their teeth and called them on it, hence he became a truthless!
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 30, 2010, 02:38:54 AM
feel free to create your own theory.
thank you, I think I will.  Szeth can surbind because he is clearly the descendent of a Herald, that explains the whole voidbingers do/do not exist conflict of his, the heralds founded Shin and told everybody that the voidbringers were gone, he discovered that they were lying through their teeth and called them on it, hence he became a truthless!
Possible, I like the latter part of the theory, but I don't think someone can surgebind just because their ancestors could. I think a more direct bond with spren is needed.
Title: Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
Post by: RicksterBLM on September 30, 2010, 07:11:19 PM
crazy idea:

Heralds are bonded to deathspren.

trapped in death/undeath.