Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Munin on September 01, 2010, 10:38:45 PM
-
I looked around a bit, but couldn't find anyone else who had noticed this. Either means I'm seeing things that aren't there, or that I'm more observant than everyone else. Either one is possible.
In the first interlude (with Ishikk, the fisherman), I noticed that the strangers looking for Hoid seem a lot like the characters from Elantris. Grumpy is "thick limbed" and "completely bald", Blunt is "taller", and from the description is built like a soldier. These two are dark-skinned. To me, Grumpy sounds a LOT like Galladon. Most tellingly, his last words in the interlude are Alavanta kamaloo kayana. And "kayana" is a word that Galladon uses in Elantris (if I remember correctly, it meant "crazy"). Blunt might be the soldier Elantrian (his name escapes me at the moment, and I don't have my copy of the book on hand to look it up).
And I would assume "Thinker" is Raoden, since the name and description appear to fit him.
-
And I would assume "Thinker" is Raoden, since the name and description appear to fit him.
I dunno, for this to be true, Raoden would be very very pale (i.e. completely white) which I think would have been something of note that would have been mentioned. IIRC, Ishikk DID mention they were all pale, but just sort of off handedly, making it sound like they were "pale from not much sun exposure" not "albino pale"
Also, given brandon's history, i would think that hoid and the shards would be the only factors tying them to the other stories. however, i certainly can't say for sure that he didn't decide to start adding in characters from other books.
-
And I would assume "Thinker" is Raoden, since the name and description appear to fit him.
I dunno, for this to be true, Raoden would be very very pale (i.e. completely white) which I think would have been something of note that would have been mentioned. IIRC, Ishikk DID mention they were all pale, but just sort of off handedly, making it sound like they were "pale from not much sun exposure" not "albino pale"
Well, it's possible that being insanely far from Elantris would mean he wouldn't be albino anymore. Bear in mind that in the book, the Aons were weakened when he got further from Elantris, so it wouldn't surprise me if the other aspects of being an Elantrian were similarly dampened.
I will admit I'm a lot less sure on Raoden and Dashe (I think that was his name). But it seems a lot more likely that Grumpy is Galladon, given his resemblance to the character and, most tellingly, his use of the Dula language.
-
Wow, at first I passed this off as rampant theorizing but going back to read the chapter....
"No, no stories, friend," Grump said. "We want only the truth."
"We'll I've given it to you."
"You swear it by Nu Ralik, that god of yours?"
"Hush!" Ishikk said. "Don't say his name. Are you idiots?"
Grump frowned. "But he is your god. Understand? Is his name holy? Not to be spoken?"
Now, let me write that passage again, with the common words translated to Dula.
"No, no stories, sule," Grump said. "We want only the truth."
"We'll I've given it to you."
"You swear it by Nu Ralik, that god of yours?"
"Hush!" Ishikk said. "Don't say his name. Are you idiots?"
Grump frowned. "But he is your god. Kolo? Is his name holy? Not to be spoken?"
When taken in translation, that DOES sound a lot like Galladon doesn't it?
Not to mention that their names are given ad Vao and Temoo... Not to creative if it's Raoden considering his last disguise name was "Kaloo"
Interesting theory to say the least...
-
Yeah, I noticed the way he talks, too. It really seems to fit him.
Also, it's worth noting that as an Elantrian, Galladon is immortal, so this doesn't necessarily mean that WoK takes place around the same time as Elantris.
EDIT: Oh, and the word "kamaloo" that Grumpy says is very similar to "kaloo", which is a (very weak) connection to the Dula language.
Two things I'm unsure of: was Dashe dark-skinned, like Blunt? And did Raoden end up with a scar along his scalp? The first wouldn't mean much, but the second would support the Elantrian theory.
-
I don't know if he did, I haven't read Elantris since last year.
And I don't know if Galladon and Dashe (Saolin died in Elantris right? Cuz I know he was the original soldier in Raoden's crew) were dark skinned. I THINK Dula's were dark-skinned people but I can't be sure.
-
I know Galladon was dark-skinned. I remember some kind of reference to him looking really distinctive when compared to other Elantrians, since most of them were light-skinned.
I actually was thinking of Saolin, not Dashe. I forgot that he was put into the pool. Did Dashe even appear anywhere outside of the Elantris short story? It's still possible it's him, but it's considerably less likely if he's that minor of a character, in my opinion. I just can't think of any other prominent male characters that fit the description... unless it's Uncle Kin (and I have no idea if he was dark-skinned).
-
Kiin DEFINITELY wanst darkskinned... he was Teoish and wouldnt match Blunt's description anyway.
I have no idea who it would be though....
-
Might even be Galladon's son or something, depending on how long it's been since the events of Elantris.
Although that's really just a wild guess on my part.
-
They did seem familiar to me, but I hadn't placed them as possible Elantrians. Interesting... I don't think I'd buy the theory, but there is some evidence that could suggest it.
Clearly though, if they're looking for Hoid and know of his other names... something crazy is going on.
-
Frankly, I don't see any way it's not Galladon.
Grumpy looking like Galladon could be a coincidence. Him being grumpy could be a coincidence.
Him speaking Dula is a clear reference.
It's the other two I'm unsure of.
-
I'm of the opinion that you're reading too much into this. Brandon has a bunch of characters, some whose mannerisms overlap is bound to happen eventually.
But, just to throw fuel on the discussion, they could be on a mission for some Shard or another and using their power to fuel their magics and disguise themselves.
-
I'm of the opinion that you're reading too much into this. Brandon has a bunch of characters, some whose mannerisms overlap is bound to happen eventually.
An overlap in mannerisms is one thing.
An overlap in mannerisms accompanied by an overlap in a specific fictional language along with looking the same and having the same personality... I see three possibilities.
1. Brandon wasn't thinking. This one is really, really unlikely. There's no way that'd slip by editors.
2. Brandon is trying to mislead us. Possible, I suppose, but I don't he'd do it in this way.
3. It's Galladon.
-
There was no language overlap, Grump never once said kolo or sule. He simply used a similar sentence structure to Galladon, with the use of understand and friend in the same way Galldon would use kolo or sule, respectively. I believe you're mixing up your notes here.
-
There was no language overlap, Grump never once said kolo or sule. He simply used a similar sentence structure to Galladon, with the use of understand and friend in the same way Galldon would use kolo or sule, respectively. I believe you're mixing up your notes here.
He said "kayana" at the end of the interlude. Re-read my first post.
Basically any time Raoden came up with any plan in Elantris, Galladon would sigh and say "You're kayana, sule."
I'm definitely not mixing up my references here. In fact, if it hadn't been for that line in WoK, I probably wouldn't have even thought of the Elantris.
-
I can tell you this one: you're onto SOMETHING but you're looking at it a little too specifically. But, good for your thinking.
-
I can tell you this one: you're onto SOMETHING but you're looking at it a little too specifically. But, good for your thinking.
Yeah. Brandon was actually dropping some major hints about this scene at the signing i just got back from.
-
I can tell you this one: you're onto SOMETHING but you're looking at it a little too specifically. But, good for your thinking.
I'm not really sure how to phrase this tactfully... it's not something I've ever been good at.
I've noticed that some people on these forums have access to "insider information". I assume you're one of them?
Let the wild guesses commence!
Umm... maybe it's just a Dula, and not Galladon specifically? The only thing that pointed to him was temperament, and even that wasn't made too clear.
Am I getting warmer?
-
I've noticed that some people on these forums have access to "insider information". I assume you're one of them?
Yeah, there is a significant number of people around here with insider info. It's one of those things you get used to after a while (that is, not getting to be one of the "cool kids" :P)
-
I've noticed that some people on these forums have access to "insider information".
Hehe, we talked about this at the signing yesterday. They're not quite on the inside but also not on the outside either. They're stuck in the wall. Me, I'm slightly farther outside, but I'd like to think I'm not quite on the outside either.
Maybe she means that you're being too specific with the characters, or perhaps where they're from. I don't know, she hasn't informed me on this specific tidbit.
-
I think fRR's statement is needlessly confusing.
If you ask the right yes/no question to Brandon at a signing, he might say something about your theories.
-
I've noticed that some people on these forums have access to "insider information".
Hehe, we talked about this at the signing yesterday. They're not quite on the inside but also not on the outside either. They're stuck in the wall. Me, I'm slightly farther outside, but I'd like to think I'm not quite on the outside either.
Maybe she means that you're being too specific with the characters, or perhaps where they're from. I don't know, she hasn't informed me on this specific tidbit.
yeah, there's different levels of being "in" around here, too. For example, peter is brandon's assistant, so he knows just about everything, inkThinker (who doesnt come around TOO terribly often these days) is like brandon's "idea buddy" i think, that is, brandon bounces ideas off of him before he actually writes them down. Which of course puts him pretty deeply in. Miyabi has a pretty deep connection i think, too. As far as I know, those three are the deepest in the "i cant tell you this" stuff, but there could be more i could be forgetting :D
-
If you ask the right yes/no question to Brandon at a signing, he might say something about your theories.
Well, the Mystery Galaxy Bookstore signing on the tenth is pretty close to me, so I'll see if I can make it then and ask him.
Thanks for the tip.
EDIT: Hmm... so, anyone have any idea about the question I should ask? "Are these characters from Sel" might be a bit too specific if I'm wrong.
-
If you ask the right yes/no question to Brandon at a signing, he might say something about your theories.
Well, the Mystery Galaxy Bookstore signing on the tenth is pretty close to me, so I'll see if I can make it then and ask him.
Thanks for the tip.
EDIT: Hmm... so, anyone have any idea about the question I should ask? "Are these characters from Sel" might be a bit too specific if I'm wrong.
At the signing here in st. louis, he hinted that some of the parts involving Hoid MAY or MAY NOT contain shardbearers from other books mentioned specifically by name. Someone asked if any of the previous shardbearers were named in this book within the hoid scenes, and he kinda did the hem-hawin' back and forth and gave a "maybe". I don't know if this helps, but it seems pretty pertinent to the current situation we're talking of.
-
I have to admit, I'm not too clear on the terminology here.
What exactly is a shardbearer, outside of the context of Roshar? Does that just mean someone from one of the worlds with a shard active on it?
-
I have to admit, I'm not too clear on the terminology here.
What exactly is a shardbearer, outside of the context of Roshar? Does that just mean someone from one of the worlds with a shard active on it?
A shardbearer is someone who HAS one of the shards. Such as ruin or preservation. They were both shardbearers. The shardbearer from elantris hasn't been named yet, i dont think, so i dunno who's the shardbearer there. They're essentially the "Gods" of the worlds, where they aren't actually a god, per say, they just have god-like powers because of the shards.
That should be mostly correct, did i get any part of that wrong, anyone else who remembers this stuff more readily than me?
-
Ah, yes, that sounds right.
I just don't think well in the mornings.
-
Oh, I thought Ruin and Preservation actually WERE shards. Shardbearer is confusing to me since that's what they call those who wield Shardblades.
-
Ah, yes, that sounds right.
I just don't think well in the mornings.
No prob. Also, as we know we are obviously on to something here, i will say this.
Last night at the signing, brandon said that there are references to elantris, as well as hints to the nature of the shards from elantris, and direct references to elantris events, so i think we are on to something here. He said most people who haven't read the other books will likely just ignore and pass up these sections as nothing in particular, so i presume they're fairly subtle.
-
Ah, yes, that sounds right.
I just don't think well in the mornings.
No prob. Also, as we know we are obviously on to something here, i will say this.
Last night at the signing, brandon said that there are references to elantris, as well as hints to the nature of the shards from elantris, and direct references to elantris events, so i think we are on to something here. He said most people who haven't read the other books will likely just ignore and pass up these sections as nothing in particular, so i presume they're fairly subtle.
Well, there was the mention that Rayse spent time on Sel (and that it ended disastrously).
-
Oh, I thought Ruin and Preservation actually WERE shards. Shardbearer is confusing to me since that's what they call those who wield Shardblades.
No, i dont think they WERE shards, i think they were just people who HAD shards.
[spoilers] Thus why both of them were able to "Die" and sazed was able to take up both of their powers[/spoilers]
Also, i suppose it is a confusing distinction, isn't it....
-
Ruin had a body so he was clearly a shard but did Preservation have a body, I mean before Vin?
-
Ruin had a body so he was clearly a shard but did Preservation have a body, I mean before Vin?
Yes. There was a part where it talks about some guy falling out of nowhere and falling dead right after vin took his power. That was supposed to be preservation's body, IIRC.
-
Now I remember, Thanks
-
Now I wish Brandon had used a different term for people with Shardblades.
This is gonna get really confusing.
-
I always referred to Ati, Laras, etc as Shardholders.
Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth were Shardbearers.
-
I wonder if we'll see our friendly-neighborhood Terrisman in one of these books. I hope so
-
I always referred to Ati, Laras, etc as Shardholders.
Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth were Shardbearers.
Probably a better distinction.
-
If there /are/ Dula around I'd assume they came through the Shadesmar. Or maybe that's how they got to the world Elantris takes place on, which is escaping me right now. I want to say Sel, but that may be Warbreaker.
-
Elantris is on Sel, yeah.
Or maybe they used the teleportation Aon. We saw in Elantris that it can take people beyond the range that Aons are effective. It might work for interplanetary travel, although to be honest, that seems like a bit of a stretch.
-
Elantris is on Sel, yeah.
Or maybe they used the teleportation Aon. We saw in Elantris that it can take people beyond the range that Aons are effective. It might work for interplanetary travel, although to be honest, that seems like a bit of a stretch.
That's a possibility, but that would be a very one way trip. Unless something really significant happened that we're not aware of, I doubt Raoden and Galladon would be willing to up and leave the whole planet like that.
-
Wait, I've read on forums that Elantris is set on the planet Opelon, and others that say on Sel. Which is the correct one, and if one is correct, then what is the other word/world then?
Do the people on their respective planets know what their world is called, out of curiosity?
-
Opelon is the continent. Sel is the world.
And no, not necessarily. The Steel Ministry, for example, did not call the planet Scadrial.
-
Elantris is on Sel, yeah.
Or maybe they used the teleportation Aon. We saw in Elantris that it can take people beyond the range that Aons are effective. It might work for interplanetary travel, although to be honest, that seems like a bit of a stretch.
That's a possibility, but that would be a very one way trip. Unless something really significant happened that we're not aware of, I doubt Raoden and Galladon would be willing to up and leave the whole planet like that.
True.
Of course, since Raoden and Galladon are immortal, we have no idea what kind of timeframe we're talking about. For all we know, the chapter 2 epigraph is a reference to Rayse completely destroying Sel.
Although, again, it's unlikely.
It's also possible that (they think) that Hoid can take them back once they find him.
-
When brandon says sections refer to Elantris, I think he's talking about the mention of Aona (Aon, get it?) and Skai dieing as a result of Rayse's visit to Sel.
Also, I'd like to make a distinction: Ruin and Preservation ARE shards. Ati and Leras were the people who held them. They BECAME Ruin and Preservation once they took up the shards, so technically now Sazed could be call both Ruin and Preservation.
Since Ati and Leras both gave their names to the metals that are their body (Lerasium and Atium), what can we make of Aona's name, which is surely the root of Aon? Are Elantris shards bound in language somehow? And is there any 'Skai' sounding word in the book?
I don't think it's Galladon. Roshar is too far away for them to cover up their Elantrianness with illusion. Also, going to Teod does not make Raoden appear less Elantrian, so I think their appearance is not tied to the city once they have fully transformed... Clubs is every bit as grumpy as Galladon, and yet they are not considered the same person.
I think what fRR post means, is that those three ARE from another world, but not characters we know...
-
And is there any 'Skai' sounding word in the book?
Scadrial is all I can think of, but... I think the similarity there is just a coincidence.
I don't think it's Galladon. Roshar is too far away for them to cover up their Elantrianness with illusion. Also, going to Teod does not make Raoden appear less Elantrian, so I think their appearance is not tied to the city once they have fully transformed... Clubs is every bit as grumpy as Galladon, and yet they are not considered the same person.
True, but Clubs doesn't speak Dula. And he doesn't look exactly like Galladon, either.
At the very least, the similarity is highly suspicious.
Also, it's possible that getting further from Sel (and therefore the Dor) would cause the "Elantrian-ness" to fade. Going away from Elantris means moving away from the hub of the AonDor. Moving away from Sel separates you from the Dor.
Maybe.
-
We can't really be sure what the time line is. If this is significantly after the time line of Elantris they may have learned a way to use there Aons even when they are not near Elantris. Perhaps they would be able to make some kind of Bridge and tie it to another location and connect it to Elantris somehow. I know I am reaching some but I am just saying we can't count anything out. It would be cool if you didn't just have Elantrians but Elantrians who could use Aon Dor.
-
There is a word related to Skai. It's "Skaze". It appears in Elantris exactly once.
-
This is a spoiler if you haven't read through Section 2.
Really, it is.
I mean it.
.
.
.
Ok. The section 2 epigraphs, assuming they're written by Hoid as seems extremely likely, say that the pursuers are "from the 17th shard". I don't know what that is, but if I were to conjecture wildly, I'd say it's an agglomerate of shardholders who hold the "17th shard", or servants of a single person who holds the same. In that case, the searchers probably aren't from a world we know.
-
I'm really not convinced that the part 2 epigraphs are written by Hoid. The only connection is the sarcastic tone and the knowledge of shards... and to be honest, we don't even know how much Hoid knows about the shards, and he's hardly the only sarcastic character around.
-
I'm pretty sure that there are only 16 shards of adonalasium, I've heard people saying something about the 17th shard being a group of people that investigates the activites of the 16 shards. I think that's info direct from Brandon, but I don't have a source.
-
I've heard people saying something about the 17th shard being a group of people that investigates the activites of the 16 shards. I think that's info direct from Brandon, but I don't have a source.
That's my understanding of it. They are planet-hoppers like Hoid, or something. However, I couldn't venture a guess why they are apparently immortal.
-
I've heard people saying something about the 17th shard being a group of people that investigates the activites of the 16 shards. I think that's info direct from Brandon, but I don't have a source.
That's my understanding of it. They are planet-hoppers like Hoid, or something. However, I couldn't venture a guess why they are apparently immortal.
Unless they're Elantrians.
Or infused with the power of a shard, like Rashek.
-
Well, naturally.
-
we have to consider that the timelines in this case likely stretch for millons or perhaps more/less years. The facts are that adulansium shattering made the other shards . But we are still in the dark (i presume) on how one gets a shard and creates life on a planet. Were ati and lerus from another planet and made scadriel? what about austure? we don't know enough about where the enitial "gods" come from. and brandon has said there is a distinct timeline with i believe liar of partanel( forgive spelling) at the begining. asking him question about timelines would be good. the shadesmere may be unique to roshar as well. we don't know enough about that yet. We need to find out how many shards there are. if some one could compile a "head count" of the shards we could start detirming how many potential planets in the cosmere support shard-holder dieties. Of corse if the shards can go to different planets and create different magic systems that one shard might be two dieties at different times in the cosmere timeline. lots of unorganized thought here sorry.
"edit"Appearently my editing brain has turned off for the weekend, i apologize again. "edit"
-
Are we sure he was speaking dula? The words sound similar yes, but brandon could also just be re using bits of languages that are still whirring around in his head.
Also, did we establish somewhere that Ruin and Preservation created humans from what they had seen before (or, I guess, what the used to be). Perhaps the similar languages ended up on separate worlds in the same way, they came originally from the shards. It's a loose guess, but just an idea.
Also, as per them losing there "Elantrian-ness" (can we find a better word), my whole point is I don't think that is possible. When they go to Teod, their powers are SIGNIFICANTLY weaker, and yet their appearance is, as far as we know, EXACTLY the same. If it were possible to change back in appearance, you think it would have happened at least slightly on their journey to teod, perhaps a slight darkening of the skin, or hair, but we saw none of that. Aon dor is involved in the CHANGING of a mortal into an Elantrian. Once they are an Elantrian, they are one. Getting cut off from aon door completely turns them into leper style elantrians (as we saw with the "It was so beautiful" man in the book). The interlopers were not Leper style, so unless they can work illusion on Roshar, I don't think the seekers could be Elantrians.
I know the man isn't clubs by the way, I was just trying to make the point that similarity does not mean two people are the same ;)
-
What most convinces me that Hoid wrote the section 2 epigraphs is this one, from Chapter 26, page 368:
I am being chased. Your friends from the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.
The pursuers are chasing the author of the epigraphs. When we met them back in the interludes, we learned they were chasing Hoid. So, the author of the epigraphs is Hoid.
-
What most convinces me that Hoid wrote the section 2 epigraphs is this one, from Chapter 26, page 368:
I am being chased. Your friends from the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.
The pursuers are chasing the author of the epigraphs. When we met them back in the interludes, we learned they were chasing Hoid. So, the author of the epigraphs is Hoid.
You're assuming that they were the pursuers he was talking about.
It's certainly possible, but it's not confirmed.
I know the man isn't clubs by the way, I was just trying to make the point that similarity does not mean two people are the same ;)
Well, the clincher for me is that the words aren't just similar, they're exactly the same. And the fact that he looks like Galladon, talks like Galladon (understand, friend?), and has a similar personality (if the nickname is accurate) makes it unlikely that Brandon would accidentally throw in such a major similarity.
If it were Kaladin or Dalinar or some other character using a Dula word, then yeah, I'd let it go.
But if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck...
-
What most convinces me that Hoid wrote the section 2 epigraphs is this one, from Chapter 26, page 368:
I am being chased. Your friends from the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.
The pursuers are chasing the author of the epigraphs. When we met them back in the interludes, we learned they were chasing Hoid. So, the author of the epigraphs is Hoid.
You're assuming that they were the pursuers he was talking about.
I'd say that it isn't certain. I would say that it is extraordinarily likely, especially given that author of the epigraphs claims that he has successfully laid down a false trail, which is exactly what we see happening with the searchers. They are looking for Hoid in one place while Hoid is halfway across the continent doing his own thing. Again, it's not certain that Hoid is the author of the epigraphs. It's just extremely likely and fits the situation as shown absolutely perfectly. So your skepticism is logically sound, unlikely to convince anybody else, and not terribly useful.
As for the identity of the searchers---it's hard to come to conclusions with so little to go on. It does make sense that they are from other worlds, though, so we can't absolutely rule out that one of them really is a Dula. The language does seem to fit, especially the word kayana, especially in context. So I'm half convinced that one of the searcher (the grumpy one) is a Dula. I wouldn't dare put a name to them, though. The arguments against them being Elantrians seems pretty strong.
-
The main reason that I'm convinced the Dula is Galladon is because most Dula are described as being unfailingly optimistic. Now, I'm sure there are more exceptions than just Galladon, but it still makes it more likely to be him.
And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the part 2 epigraphs are written by Hoid. But again, I think there's not enough specific evidence there to really get behind the idea.
-
I agree with Grumpy being Galladon, and I think that Shundel might be Blunt. Oh, and I think Raoden and Galladon were in the prologue talking to Elohkar. I just need to find page references.
Maybe whatever Odium did is what made Raoden not-glowy. Maybe he destroyed Elantris. That would probably explain it.
-
I agree with Grumpy being Galladon, and I think that Shundel might be Blunt. Oh, and I think Raoden and Galladon were in the prologue talking to Elohkar. I just need to find page references.
Maybe whatever Odium did is what made Raoden not-glowy. Maybe he destroyed Elantris. That would probably explain it.
Ehhh, I think that has more to do with them being far from Elantris than anything else. It seems most likely that Odium already went to Sel before the events of Elantris.
-
I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid. Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude. The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating.
The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it. I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.
Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous. Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe.
I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid. Not sure about that. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?
-
I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid. Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude. The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating.
The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it. I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.
Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous. Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe.
I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid. Not sure about that. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?
Since some people don't believe the epigraphs were written by Hoid, this interlude could be considered solid evidence for Hoid's authorship of the epigraphs. In that sense, it does serve a narrative purpose.
Also, it adds scope to the series. That's nontrivial as well.
-
I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid. Not sure about that. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?
Hehe... if you can find the quote, that would certainly hurt this theory.
I'm pretty certain that Elantrians are looking for Hoid. Whether one of them is Galladon or not (and I'm betting that he is), there had to have been a reason for Brandon to put this into an interlude. The whole section offers very little except to show that people are looking for Hoid (which is made obvious by an epigraph elsewhere)... unless this section is added just so that we can do what we're doing now: speculating.
The narration draws attention to the line that the fisherman overhears, the one with the Dula language in it. I think Brandon wants us to wonder if they're from Elantris or not, and he probably has it all in there specifically for his hardcore fans.
Considering that there are already mentions of shards visiting Sel and creating disaster, another Elantris mix doesn't seem too ridiculous. Especially considering that Brandon's made it very clear that all his epic fantasy fiction goes into one single universe.
I do seem to recall someone asking if other characters from other worlds will show up again in tWoK, and I think the answer may have been "no," except Hoid. Not sure about that. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?
Since some people don't believe the epigraphs were written by Hoid, this interlude could be considered solid evidence for Hoid's authorship of the epigraphs. In that sense, it does serve a narrative purpose.
Also, it adds scope to the series. That's nontrivial as well.
Yeah, the interludes are primarily there to add scope.
But hey, happyman, if you can falsify the idea that Hoid wrote that letter and if you propose another candidate, I'd love you forever :P
-
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).
But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
-
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).
But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
Well, I definitely don't think its another Shardholder, because Shardholders never seem to refer to other Shardholders by their original name, but by the Shard itself. Shards talk about each other not in terms of Ati, Leras, and Rayse, but Ruin, Preservation, and Odium. It's too consistent of an effect.
Whoever wrote the epigraphs is someone separate from Shardholders.
-
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).
But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid. That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more. You're overstating your case, Munin.
The person writing the letter has the following attributes:
(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards. This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.
(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds. References to Sel and Ati make this clear.
(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.
(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.
(5) Seriously needs help.
(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.
Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily. This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1). Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen. This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything. Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.
By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name. This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.
Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity. Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.
In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around? All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard. The reference pool really is quite small here.
-
That... that rigorously describes my feelings in a far clearer way than I ever could have written :P
If, um, you aren't going to join 17thshard.com, can I repost what you just said there on those forums? Your argument is fantastic.
-
That... that rigorously describes my feelings in a far clearer way than I ever could have written :P
If, um, you aren't going to join 17thshard.com, can I repost what you just said there on those forums? Your argument is fantastic.
Go ahead. It's far from bulletproof, but it's the best we can do at the moment. Hoid really is the best candidate by a long shot.
-
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).
But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid. That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more. You're overstating your case, Munin.
The person writing the letter has the following attributes:
(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards. This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.
(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds. References to Sel and Ati make this clear.
(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.
(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.
(5) Seriously needs help.
(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.
Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily. This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1). Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen. This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything. Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.
By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name. This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.
Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity. Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.
In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around? All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard. The reference pool really is quite small here.
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.
And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.
-
The main reason that I'm convinced the Dula is Galladon is because most Dula are described as being unfailingly optimistic. Now, I'm sure there are more exceptions than just Galladon, but it still makes it more likely to be him.
And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if the part 2 epigraphs are written by Hoid. But again, I think there's not enough specific evidence there to really get behind the idea.
I think it might be a dula. However i doubt it's Galladon. He would have said kolo and sule not friend. there is no reason to hide their language on another planet. If he said something truly in the dula language he would have said more than one word.
-
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.
And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.
Uhhh, well, Brandon said that Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. Thus, he's the only such candidate we know of who could possibly remember that their names were Ati or Rayse.
If you interpret things this way, certain other quotes no longer seem enigmatic. To wit:
“People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.”
He's come to Roshar, to chase an old acquaintance--Rayse--but he ends up spending his time hiding from instead, since Rayse controls Odium, and if Rayse finds him, Hoid will die.
Makes sense to me.
Furthermore, we know that the Seventeenth Shard planet hops, so if there are planet hoppers searching for Hoid, it's pretty logical that it's the Seventeenth Shard.
-
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.
And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.
Uhhh, well, Brandon said that Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. Thus, he's the only such candidate we know of who could possibly remember that their names were Ati or Rayse.
If you interpret things this way, certain other quotes no longer seem enigmatic. To wit:
“People see in stories what they’re looking for, my young friend.” He reached behind his boulder, pulling out a pack and slinging it on his shoulder. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.”
He's come to Roshar, to chase an old acquaintance--Rayse--but he ends up spending his time hiding from instead, since Rayse controls Odium, and if Rayse finds him, Hoid will die.
Makes sense to me.
Furthermore, we know that the Seventeenth Shard planet hops, so if there are planet hoppers searching for Hoid, it's pretty logical that it's the Seventeenth Shard.
Fair enough. I wasn't aware that Hoid was present at the Shattering.
-
Falsifying it is as impossible as proving it, at this point, without a direct reveal from Brandon (which I don't see happening).
But the author could be any other Shardholder, really. Or anyone else with the ability to travel between worlds.
Oh, I'm firmly of the belief that the person writing the letter is Hoid. That interlude is the best evidence around, although there is plenty more. You're overstating your case, Munin.
The person writing the letter has the following attributes:
(1) Knew the Shardbearers personally before they bore the shards. This is supported by the references to Ati and Rayse.
(2) Has observed the events on multiple worlds. References to Sel and Ati make this clear.
(3) Has a quest of some sort, some goal he is trying to reach, which involves personal motivations against Rayse and Bavadin.
(4) Is being chased by the 17th shard, but has successfully laid down a false trail for them.
(5) Seriously needs help.
(6) Is directly involved in the events of the war that is presumably coming.
Hoid satisfies all of these conditions easily. This is more rigid than you might think; Sazed, for instance, is ruled out by condition (1). Most entities who would satisfy conditions 1-3 and 5-6 would have to be somebody new, somebody we have never yet seen. This isn't impossible, but we just don't know enough to propose anything. Condition (5) does suggest that the author is not uberpowerful, but given what Odium has done this probably doesn't mean much.
By contrast, condition 4 is ridiculously specific, and exactly what we see in the interlude under discussion, where the searchers look for Hoid by name. This point alone suggests Hoid as the author, barring really strong evidence otherwise.
Also, Hoid has been seen to directly interfere on Shardworlds, whereas we have no canonical evidence of other interference, so condition 6 suggests Hoid much more strongly than it does any other entity. Condition 3 would go a long way to explaining Hoid's behavior in other books.
In addition, just how many planethoppers are there floating around? All we've seen is Hoid and the 17th shard. The reference pool really is quite small here.
Maybe I'm missing something about Hoid, but how do we know that he fulfills conditions 1 , 3, 5, and 6? So far, he hasn't seemed like he was seeking help. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't expressed personal knowledge of any of the shardholders. He hasn't mentioned any motivations involving Rayse or Bavadin. And we don't know for sure if the people looking for him were from the 17th shard.
And it's unclear if he's even directly involved. At best, he's been an observer so far. A sarcastic observer, true, but that's basically it.
Hmmm. My support for #1 and #3 are from Brandon's statements about Hoid, not from the text of the books. Apparently, Brandon said Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered, which makes him a very good fit for #1. He also said that Hoid had his own goals and motivations that he was pursuing in the background of the other shard-world stories. Basically, Hoid is not a passive character. He just never ran into the main characters before except in passing. That's why #3 is a good fit.
Note especially his discussion with Kaladin, where he said he came "there" (presumably, Roshar) in order to find an old friend, but now he spends all his time avoiding him. (This is compatible with him avoiding Odium, or even the person the letter was to.) Hoid is doing something. He's not just an observer. Or do you think he name-drops Adonalsium just for kicks? (Incidentally, that negates your argument about him not knowing anything about the shards. Anyone who knows that name is involved.) No, regardless of what else you think, Hoid is an active character.
#5 is compatible with Hoid. It doesn't rule him out. I was just trying to carefully distill the contents of the epigraphs.
#6 is also compatible with Hoid, especially the way he showed up in the right place and the right time to greet the last Herald as he returned. Again, it doesn't rule him out. His actions, when interpreted in the context of #6, make sense. Yes, he could have been there for some other reason (do you really believe that?) I mean, his whole conversation in the epilogue is headed towards the ending of the book---he was waiting for the Herald to show up, and seemed dismayed at the trouble he was bringing with him. No, Hoid is up to his ears in the War, even if you don't accept that he's the author of the epigraphs.
As for the people searching not being the 17th shard, give me a break. Get real. I've seen this kind of argument before on the internet, and I don't intend to get stuck in it because it doesn't go anywhere. Can't prove a negative, that kind of thing. You can't prove to me that I'm not a hallucinating turnip, either. Seriously pointless. I grant you the technicality: Brandon didn't come and say outright that the searchers were from the 17th shard; he just implied it heavily. So what? That doesn't change the fact that that's who they are and Hoid is who they're are chasing. As I said, #4 is the real kicker for showing who the sender is, and this is why.
This is a classic case of Occam's razor. Assuming that the author is Hoid doesn't answer all the mysteries, but all the pieces we do have, fit. Assuming it is someone else leaves pieces dangling all over the place, to absolutely no purpose, narrative or in-world logic. Rather than having two sets of planet-hoppers (Hoid, 17th shard), we would have three (Hoid, 17th shard, whoever the searchers in pure lake were). Rather than having one set of planet-hopping searchers lost, we would have two lost groups of searchers, in almost identical situations, just with different targets. (One would be hunting for Hoid, and the other for the mysterious author.) Hoid would be on Roshar trying to stop Odium (assuming Hoid is doing anything esle seems... unlikely), and so would this unknown author. We create double sets of extremely distinctive traits simply for the sake of not making assumptions... not bloody likely.
-
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.
My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.
-
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.
My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.
Although, to be fair, we only know how Hoid talks, not how he writes. For a lot of people (including myself), those two can differ greatly.
-
Although, to be fair, we only know how Hoid talks, not how he writes. For a lot of people (including myself), those two can differ greatly.
True. I talk in a low monotone voice but write in a high pitched melodical voice.
-
Munin, you said before (too lazy to quote it, sorry :P), that the difference between Galladon and clubs and Galladon and this unkown dula (I'll give you that), is that galladon and clubs are similar and Galladon and this dula guy are exactly the same. This is untrue, as we've already found one major difference: their appearance. You've created a theory for why the appearance could be different, but that theory is not proof, as there is no evidence for it, as I explained in my last post. The only evidence that HAS been given for this theory so far, is that Elantrians MUST change back into humans when visiting other worlds because Galladon did, but that's not proof because we don't know if it's Galladon. You need to either know A) That Galladon is the searcher, or B) that Elantrians change back into humans when on Roshar in order to use them as proofs, you can't use them to prove eachother.
Yes the 'Dula' is grumpy and bald, but his non silvery metallic skin means he's probably not Galladon. The evidence we have says Elantrians don't change unless cut off from the Dor completely, and when that happens they don't change back into humans, but into hairless, wrinkly, zombie things. Also, upon reading this, if these people are Dula (and they do seem to be races not from Roshar, as Ishikk has trouble classifying him), I realized that Blunt is the same race as Grumpy, which means there are two 'Dulas.' This means the other one can't be Dashe or Saolin, even if this theory of Elantrians reverting turns out to be true. It could, however be them if Aon Dor worked on Roshar, which I think might be more likely than them reverting.
Reading this with Galladon and Raoden in mind, it does make me think of them though. Perhaps, with more EVIDENCE I could be convinced :)
This is why I respectfully disagree with your theory that it is Galladon. :)
I'm sure Hoid is the writer of the epigraphs, I don't have evidence that is not yet given, but my gut says it is him.
-
I have another idea for why Galladon isn't shiny. It seems like shiny skin would be rather conspicuous . Perhaps Galladon (or his companions) are using Aon Shao, the one that lets Raoden pretend to be Kaloo. That Aon seemed to work even before Elantris was back up. It might work on another planet.
-
Munin, you said before (too lazy to quote it, sorry :P), that the difference between Galladon and clubs and Galladon and this unkown dula (I'll give you that), is that galladon and clubs are similar and Galladon and this dula guy are exactly the same. This is untrue, as we've already found one major difference: their appearance. You've created a theory for why the appearance could be different, but that theory is not proof, as there is no evidence for it, as I explained in my last post. The only evidence that HAS been given for this theory so far, is that Elantrians MUST change back into humans when visiting other worlds because Galladon did, but that's not proof because we don't know if it's Galladon. You need to either know A) That Galladon is the searcher, or B) that Elantrians change back into humans when on Roshar in order to use them as proofs, you can't use them to prove eachother.
Partially true, but the fact remains that he looks the same as Galladon, except he doesn't glow.
And for all we know, the Elantrians can voluntarily stop glowing.
Furthermore, we know that AonDor weakens the further from Elantris. Logically, it's not unreasonable to think that the Dor would weaken the further you get from Sel.
Yes the 'Dula' is grumpy and bald, but his non silvery metallic skin means he's probably not Galladon. The evidence we have says Elantrians don't change unless cut off from the Dor completely, and when that happens they don't change back into humans, but into hairless, wrinkly, zombie things. Also, upon reading this, if these people are Dula (and they do seem to be races not from Roshar, as Ishikk has trouble classifying him), I realized that Blunt is the same race as Grumpy, which means there are two 'Dulas.' This means the other one can't be Dashe or Saolin, even if this theory of Elantrians reverting turns out to be true. It could, however be them if Aon Dor worked on Roshar, which I think might be more likely than them reverting.
This goes back to Occam's Razor, though. Is it more likely that there's someone that speaks Dula, looks like Galladon, is uncharacteristically grumpy, but is not Galladon... or is more likely that Galladon isn't glowing for some reason?
Definitely can't be Saolin, by the way, unless he came back from the dead (well, technically he was just put in the pool, but still).
-
Finally! I tracked down all the page numbers I wanted to.
WoK:
Prologue: Elhokar, the king's son and heir, sat at the high table, tuling the feast in his father's absence, He was in conversation with two men, a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek and a thinner, Alethi-looking man who kept glancing over his shoulder.
Interlude:
169: There were three of them. Two were dark-skinned Makabaki, though they were the strangest Makabaki he'd ever seen. One was thick limbed where most of his kind were small and fine-boned, and he had a completely bald head. The other was taller, with short dark hair, lean muscles, and broad shoulders. In his head, Ishikk called them Grump and Blunt, on account of their personalities.
The third man had light tan skion like an Alethi. He didn't seem quite right either, though. The eyes were the wrong shape, and his accent was certainly not Alethi. He spoke the Selay language worse than the other two, and usually stayed quite. He seemed thoughtful, though. Iskikk called him Thinker.
Wonder how he earned that scar across his scalp Ishikk thought....
..said tall, stiff Blunt. He had the build and air of a soldier though none of the three carried weapons.
Elantris:
Blunt:
132: Next Kiin pointed through the slightly open door toward a man with dark brown skin and delicate features. "That man beside Eondel is Baron Shuden."
Grump: (Galladon)
9: A man, his smooth bald head reflecting the morning light... The man's skin bore the telltale black splotches od the Shaod, but the unaffected patches weren't pale, they were a deep brown instead... Tall and firm-framed, the man had wide hands and keen eyes set in a dark-skinned face.
Thinker? (Raoden)
316: He was a taller man...The gray parts of his skin were a little lighter than those on th other Elantrians
539: He had pale Aonic skin, sandy brown hair, and keen blue skin.
I also think it may be someone else besides Thinker. Brandon has another Elantris book planned that will be set 10 years in the future. It will focus on Daorn and Kaise (Kiin's kids) and the imminent invasion of Fjordel. I think that WoK may be after this novel, which would explain who has a scar on their scalp and who is Jindoese that's a soldier (although I'm inclined to believe that it is indeed Shuden). However, thinker might be Daorn, who isn't quite as good with languages as his sister. Maybe it's Raoden and Galladon in the prologue, then six years later, it's Galladon, Shuden, and Daorn.
Although I am inclined to believe that it is indeed Galladon. Who else is a pessimistic, bald, sturdy Dula?
For lack of shininess- I think either they used Aon Shao (which is the Aon Raoden used to disguise as a Dula), or that distance from Elantris tuned down the shininess, or that since the shards that Aona and Skai Splintered, the magic system collapsed, returning Elantrians to normal people.
For distance- I think that the Selians are either using Aon Tia to transport, or they have figured out how to use Shadesmar to move from planet to planet, much like I assume the Radiants did to move within Roshar.
For author of letter: Hoid is being chased by other worlders, the writer of the letter is being chased by 17th shard. Hoid knows about Shards and is interfering (see WoA, when he leads the Terrisman refugees), writer is interfering.
-
I'm with comatose. These are correlations but none of the comparisons are proof. It's likly that you are speculating and extrapilating too much.
-
Happyman, I completely agree with your assessment. I think it all makes sense.
My one concern is that the epigraphs aren't written in a very Hoid style. Remember how distinctive the epigraphs in MB3 were in revealing the mystery? I worry that we are wrong, somehow. Granted, I don't see how we could be. Perhaps the change in Hoid's tone is simply because he's in deep trouble.
One thing that we absolutely must take into account when we think about this is context.
Basically, almost every other time we have seen Hoid, he is acting. Playing a role. A role largely determined by the culture he finds himself in.
Pre-WoK, the only really long bit (in published canon) where he speaks in anything like his own voice in Warbreaker, when he info-dumps for Siri. This is a very formalized type of storytelling, with certain conventions, not to mention deference, required.
The other extended sequences are as King's Wit, where he is most definitely playing a role (he clearly enjoys it, but it is a role), and his talk with Kaladin.
Of all of these, I would only take the discussion with Kaladin as being really representative of Hoid's voice. I don't think we get enough of it to say whether the epigraphs are his or not. People react very differently around different people, especially depending on how well they know each other.
-
This goes back to Occam's Razor, though. Is it more likely that there's someone that speaks Dula, looks like Galladon, is uncharacteristically grumpy, but is not Galladon... or is more likely that Galladon isn't glowing for some reason?
Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but actually, you've got your logic backwards for using Occam's razor. With Occam's razor, anything that can be explained as something that happens naturally, or can be tested/shown is not considered a complexity when consider how simple the statement is. Anything you have to take of faith, or a hunch IS considered a complexity. (this is why when using Occam's razor, the idea of the big bang is considered more simple than saying some sort of deity created the universe, despite the fact that saying "*insert god name here* did it!" seems more simple than describing particle physics)
Occam's razor defines the "simpler" solution as the one that requires the least amount of new assumptions to be extrapolated. It requires basically no extrapolation for someone to speak dula (speaking a language is common among the people who speak it, so it requires not special assumption on our part), the appearance, the similarities we have are dark skin, bald head, and thick frame. These are all very common traits as well, and require no special assumption or explanations on our part again. The same goes with being grumpy. Yet another similarity that is a particularly common trait among people in general. The description could, theoretically, match a large number of people, though one we know in specific does match it, but it doesn't mean it's him. If i said I met a tall, thickly build, blond hair guy who was rude to me, and you said you met someone of similar appearance, we wouldn't automatically assume they were the same person, because too many special circumstances are required for it to actually BE the same person. A coincidence of appearance is more likely.
However, with the other scenario, Galladon not glowing for some reason, this requires a large amount of special reasoning on our part. This is because for Galladon to be not glowing, he has to have some special way to hide it we aren't aware of, or for distance from his power to act differently than we've seen so far when it lessens. So far, from what we've seen, when an Elantrian is cut off from the power (or its lowered to a trickle) they become, as stated previously, shriveled nasty zombie guys. For the theory for him being cut off reverting him, this would have to completely flip-flop the understanding we have so far when taken into consideration.
As far as setting up some sort of glamer disguise before hand, we would have to assume that, despite prior evidence again, the Aon's wont weaken as they flow of the Dor is lessened (which, previously, they did when they were practically cut off from the Dor, but still had a small trickle)
Anyways, that's how i see it. Assuming they stopped glowing for some reason is way more complex an idea than allowing for there to be more than one person of similar looks and personality by coincidence.
Phew. That went longer than expected.
[/rant]
-
One thing you should think on though is this, when the Elantrians were nasty blotchy Zombie-guys, the Dor wasn't slowed to a trickle, it was broken. It wasn't as much a pipe with less water pressure, but more of a pipe that's half clogged with muck. When the Aons were fixed, the "muck" was cleaned out. You got all the water, and it wasn't murky and disgusting.
However, if you go very, very far away, you will still get a trickle of that water, but it'll be clean. If you go incredibly far away, then wouldn't that water be no longer able to effect you? You would revert to normal.
This is, of course, going on the somewhat large assumption that the Elantrians genetic code and physical makeup aren't changed when they become Elantrians, instead they are saturated with the Dor. (And when the Dor was broken, the saturation was ineffective.)
-
One thing you should think on though is this, when the Elantrians were nasty blotchy Zombie-guys, the Dor wasn't slowed to a trickle, it was broken. It wasn't as much a pipe with less water pressure, but more of a pipe that's half clogged with muck. When the Aons were fixed, the "muck" was cleaned out. You got all the water, and it wasn't murky and disgusting.
However, if you go very, very far away, you will still get a trickle of that water, but it'll be clean. If you go incredibly far away, then wouldn't that water be no longer able to effect you? You would revert to normal.
This is, of course, going on the somewhat large assumption that the Elantrians genetic code and physical makeup aren't changed when they become Elantrians, instead they are saturated with the Dor. (And when the Dor was broken, the saturation was ineffective.)
Hrmmm....i'm not so sure where you're getting the "filled with muck" part of it. As far as im aware, all we know about the breakage was that the Dor flowing through was slowed to a trickle, where/when was it said that it was being tainted as well?
Afterall, all that was done to "fix" it was to open the floodgates and let it pour back out. There wasn't any particular "cleansing" done that i remember, just a reopening of the "channels" so to speak.
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
Of course, no elantrian has ever been fully without the Dor in some sense, so it's impossible for us to say what would happen (hey! anyone going to a signing anytime soon? This sounds like a beauty of a question to ask him!)
-
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.
-
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.
But what of the elantrians who were all ready transformed? The same happened to them, did it not? IIRC, they were put into the exact same state as the newly transformed ones.
-
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.
But what of the elantrians who were all ready transformed? The same happened to them, did it not? IIRC, they were put into the exact same state as the newly transformed ones.
Which is where my theory comes from, with the Elantrians being sustained by the Dor, instead of transformed by it.
On the "Muck" thing, what I mean isn't as much that there was actual "Muck" in the Dor, merely that the break caused the Dor to react as a water pipe would when clogged with filth.
And again, this is just wild speculation based loosely on facts.
-
Once again, i'm just convinced that "once an elantrian, always an elantrian" is how it would be working, since getting even a trickle of the power (tainted or not) they retain their physical changes (just lose their powers), and not "slightly revert" back to being normal
I would argue that's a different situation, though. When you become an Elantrian, you go through a transformation. In this case, it was just that there wasn't enough power to complete the transformation. That's why, for instance, the Elantrians' hearts didn't beat until the Aons were fixed.
But what of the elantrians who were all ready transformed? The same happened to them, did it not? IIRC, they were put into the exact same state as the newly transformed ones.
We know that SOMETHING happened to them. But I don't think we get a description of the old man (who is the only one we met).
-
All of the Elantrians alive when the chasm was created suffered the same affliction that newer ones did afterward. Everything related to the Dor was affected. The Dor was not tainted, nor was it weakened, but the basic symbol needed for it to interact with the world was changed. Remember the first time Raoden used a glyph that worked? The pressure that built up was enormous.
As for whether or not they would lose their coloring with distance, I would say the glow of their skin would certainly wane as they got further from elantris. It would then be easy enough to disguise your skin and hair. Also remember that Raoden was able to disguise himself completely even before he added the chasm line to Elantris itself. It would seem that very little power is needed to affix a disguise.
Earongal:
I have to disagree with you. Occam's Razor is fine, but all facts have to be put into account, and I feel you are missing a couple of things in this instance. First, Brandon goes out of his way to describe Grump, making sure to include that, while he had the skin color of the Mubakanaki(??), he was not built like one. in fact, it is noted that none of the three strangers really fit in with any nationality the viewpoint character knows. Second, do you remember the epigraphs from HoA? Brandon likes giving special characters a unique way of speaking so they can be identified more easily. As for the tall grumpy blonde analogy, it works if your in Sweden, but if you were in China, there's a good bet it's the same guy, especially if he speaks in a unique pattern, and even more especially when the author goes out of his way to make the guy speak one of the four or five words of his native tongue that is known to the reader.
-
All of the Elantrians alive when the chasm was created suffered the same affliction that newer ones did afterward. Everything related to the Dor was affected. The Dor was not tainted, nor was it weakened, but the basic symbol needed for it to interact with the world was changed. Remember the first time Raoden used a glyph that worked? The pressure that built up was enormous.
Right. It's more like putting your thumb over a faucet tap and restricting what comes out, rather than tainting or weakening of it.
As for whether or not they would lose their coloring with distance, I would say the glow of their skin would certainly wane as they got further from elantris. It would then be easy enough to disguise your skin and hair. Also remember that Raoden was able to disguise himself completely even before he added the chasm line to Elantris itself. It would seem that very little power is needed to affix a disguise.
Oh, i have no qualms with them losing their shiny from distance, but I don't think they'd lose their color. However, this also comes back to my life-support analogy. If greatly restricted flow of the Dor because of the Shaod causes them to practically zombify, and their lives to essentially "freeze", when they move completely out of range for the flow of Dor to even reach them (which i'm assuming being lightyears away would do), wouldn't this basically kill them?
Earongal:
I have to disagree with you. Occam's Razor is fine, but all facts have to be put into account, and I feel you are missing a couple of things in this instance. First, Brandon goes out of his way to describe Grump, making sure to include that, while he had the skin color of the Mubakanaki(??), he was not built like one. in fact, it is noted that none of the three strangers really fit in with any nationality the viewpoint character knows. Second, do you remember the epigraphs from HoA? Brandon likes giving special characters a unique way of speaking so they can be identified more easily. As for the tall grumpy blonde analogy, it works if your in Sweden, but if you were in China, there's a good bet it's the same guy, especially if he speaks in a unique pattern, and even more especially when the author goes out of his way to make the guy speak one of the four or five words of his native tongue that is known to the reader.
First, Quick Nitpick - It's Eerongal with two E's, not Ea (not a big deal, just FYI) :)
well, currently, we only know one person who's a native Dula speaker. Galladon. So it's hard to say if he has a unique way of speaking, or if he talks like any other dula.
I accept that he's speaking dula, and indeed that these people are likely from Sel (of that i'd had no doubt), and they indeed dont fit physically into the race they appear to be, but this would be true of almost anyone who pretended to be of a native race elsewhere (take your swedish in china example, if he dressed up and tried to look chinese, it would be obvious he wasn't chinese, generally)
Also, another thought occurs to me. Wasn't Galladon pessimistic and grumpy BECAUSE of the Shaod? Like when he was reminiscing about being a farmer, didn't he talk about missing the care-free days or something, though not fitting in with others? With the Shaod fixed, wouldn't he likely become a much happier, nicer person anyways? This is all speculation, but it certainly doesn't SEEM like a far leap in logic, and we have nothing to go on for this to be true, since we don't really get any extended time with them after everything is fixed up.
Also, yet another thought that occurs to me when writing this: Generally, yes, brandon likes dropping hints about other works in his current works. However, so far only 1 character has had any crossover action. Hoid. And that's because he is in all of brandon's (shard) books. While the stuff pertaining to Hoid may be as an "on the side" nature to the events in WoK, it seems a pretty bold step to be bringing other characters directly from his other works just to build some anticipation for anything upcoming that involves hoid and the shards themselves, especially since brandon's official stance on his other works is that none of his works are required reading for others, even if they all have elements in common.
To some extent, this would make Elantris required reading to make sense of these little outlier scenes involving characters from Elantris, if they are indeed characters actually from Elantris.
Now brandon may very well break his usual form and do so, he certainly is allowed to if he wants to, but to me, the idea of Raoden and Galladon showing up in WoK for foreshadowing just really seems to break the usual way he does things.
It wouldn't surprise me to get some hot cross-over action as soon as hoid and the shards become the main focus of a book, but until then, i can't really see brandon reusing some older characters in a new book until that focus is shifted.
Thoughts on these couple of things? These are both obviously personal speculation, and attempting to logic all the info we have together, so i could very well be wrong on both accounts, but I feel they're actually both worth considering.
-
Here is my understanding of what happened to the Elantrians:
Pre-Reod: Shaod transformed them into silver skinned white haired super beings.
Reod: The most powerful were overwhelmed by the Dor trying to get out through them, and all were changed into blotchy zombies (if the man looked different, dont you think someone would have noticed? It's his comments that set him apart, not his appearance).
*Sub point: I believe the Reod was the disaster on Sel spoken of by the epigraph writer who I think is Hoid.
Post Reod: The shaod continues to take change people, but into zombie things. Aon Dor does not work, and those closest to getting it to do so (Raoden) are overwhelmed with the Dor trying to push through them.
Chasm Line Addition: The Dor is released, but weaker than it should be (besides the initial surge), and the Elantrians are still unchanged.
The Elantris Aon Rao is repaired: Elantrians are restored to what they were pre-reod.
When Raoden goes to Teod: His power is reduced, but as far as we know his appearance stays exactly the same. Only the aon's power is weakened.
IT is my conclusion from these events that if the Dor was blocked again, they would revert to zombies. If the dor was reduced because of distance, they would remain the same in appearance but be unable to use aons.
Thus, if the man in the interlude is Galladon, he is using AonDor, which might work on Roshar (perhaps different planets are not subject to the distance rule, who knows?) or possibly makeup to disguise his Elantrian appearance.
PS: Why would Raoden have a scar if he has healing abilities?
-
this is all assuming that the poeple looking for Hoid are Elantrians (Grumpy is accounted for imho the rest is all too vague):
I assume that there is one main time-line in the cosmere. Which means that the Elantris Sequel happens before WoK. Right now that does not spoil that much of Elantris II, but there might come a point where Brandon just has to write Elantis II just because some WoK stuff (like Hoid finally meeting up with the Elantris gang), significantly interferes with his plans on Elantris II.
This all goes to the Question of how Hoid got to be a World-Hopper. There really should be no reason for others not to be able to learn the same feat. And we still have to find out what exactly the relationship between Hoid and his apprentice Worldsinger Sigzil is/was. There is definitely more there.
-
Munin, looks like you caught something here. I just got back from the San Diego WoK signing, and Brandon pretty much confirmed that (1) Grumpy is a Dula and (2) the Hoid-hunters are the 17th Shard.
Me: Could a Dula be a member of the 17th Shard?
BS: Why would you ask that?
Me: Grumpy uses the term 'kayana'
BS: [laughs] There's no reason a Dula couldn't be a member of the 17th Shard.
Then he mentioned that it was the first time someone he'd been asked about that (sorry if you were planning to ask him later in the tour; I made sure to mention that I wasn't the one who caught it). At this point, I think it's really likely that Grumpy is Galladon.
-
Munin, looks like you caught something here. I just got back from the San Diego WoK signing, and Brandon pretty much confirmed that (1) Grumpy is a Dula and (2) the Hoid-hunters are the 17th Shard.
Yeah, I was at the same signing, one of the last ones in line. He mentioned someone else had asked him that.
Me: Could a Dula be a member of the 17th Shard?
BS: Why would you ask that?
Me: Grumpy uses the term 'kayana'
BS: [laughs] There's no reason a Dula couldn't be a member of the 17th Shard.
Then he mentioned that it was the first time someone he'd been asked about that (sorry if you were planning to ask him later in the tour; I made sure to mention that I wasn't the one who caught it). At this point, I think it's really likely that Grumpy is Galladon.
My exchange went something like this...
Me: So, in Way of Kings, there's a character named Grumpy in the first interlude. He acts like Galladon, looks like Galladon, and apparently has the same personality. And he says a Dula word.
Brandon: A Dula word? He says several.
Me: So... is it Galladon?
Brandon: Well... there are certainly facts there. [I forget the exact wording after this, but it's basically what you'd get from a politician or a lawyer if you tried to nail them down on a tricky issue]
So, it's confirmed that he's speaking Dula. We know that a Dula could be a member of the 17th shard (thanks for asking that, it didn't occur to me). And he seemed very evasive, so unless he's like that with incorrect theories, too, I'd say we have a much more solid basis for the Galladon theory.
I didn't ask about Raoden or Shuuden, though.
-
You were at the SD signing? Heh, that's pretty awesome. You weren't the guy who passed out during the Q&A I hope.
Anyways, I figured asking something too direct would get a RAFO. Still, from his answers, I'd say it's pretty safe to say that Grumpy is Galladon. As for the other 17th Sharders, I get the feeling that they're characters we probably haven't seen before. Really though, I'm basing this on my desire for the makeup of the 17th Shard to be more than just Elantrian.
-
You were at the SD signing? Heh, that's pretty awesome. You weren't the guy who passed out during the Q&A I hope.
Fortunately, no. I was near the door (right next to the counter) , so you probably didn't see me.
Anyways, I figured asking something too direct would get a RAFO. Still, from his answers, I'd say it's pretty safe to say that Grumpy is Galladon. As for the other 17th Sharders, I get the feeling that they're characters we probably haven't seen before. Really though, I'm basing this on my desire for the makeup of the 17th Shard to be more than just Elantrian.
At the very least, I'd say it's now almost certain that the people in the first interlude are members of the 17th shard, and that the organization is made up of people from worlds with other shards on them.
-
I imagine the 17th shard is made up of people from several planets, as they can planet hop. It seems kind of counter-productive to have an organization that can planet hop, and then not take advantage of potential members from other planets.
While I think the conversation with Brandon about Galladon makes it more likely, I still think it's more likely that it's just a Dula. But I've been wrong before, and where Galladon likely won't be making any more major appearances on Sel, he could very feasibly become a member of the 17th shard.
-
I imagine the 17th shard is made up of people from several planets, as they can planet hop. It seems kind of counter-productive to have an organization that can planet hop, and then not take advantage of potential members from other planets.
Yeah, I had assumed the same, but now we're sure of it.
Although it might be that someone or something else is in charge of it.
-
While I think the conversation with Brandon about Galladon makes it more likely, I still think it's more likely that it's just a Dula.
Yes, but Brandon went to such lengths explaining how Galladon's pessimism was unique that I find it hard to believe that Grumpy the Dula is anyone but Galladon.
-
i think grumpy is a dula but there is still no proof outside of phonetics that hints he is galladon. NOTHING... i will ask directly at the signing on tuesday but i would bet it is another dula (fun fact: there is more than one pessimestic asian too)
-
i think grumpy is a dula but there is still no proof outside of phonetics that hints he is galladon. NOTHING... i will ask directly at the signing on tuesday but i would bet it is another dula (fun fact: there is more than one pessimestic asian too)
Asking directly won't do any good. I did the same thing, and he didn't tell me.
Instead, ask if Elantrians would stop glowing and/or die if they were on another planet.
-
i think grumpy is a dula but there is still no proof outside of phonetics that hints he is galladon. NOTHING... i will ask directly at the signing on tuesday but i would bet it is another dula (fun fact: there is more than one pessimestic asian too)
Asking directly won't do any good. I did the same thing, and he didn't tell me.
Instead, ask if Elantrians would stop glowing and/or die if they were on another planet.
^this ^
We know he's Dula, we DON'T know if he's Elantrian. If he's Elantrian, we have a strong case for it being Galladon. If we find out he can NOT be Elantrian, it likely isn't Galladon.
This question will let us know if he is or isn't Elantrian, but straight asking if he is Galladon will get you an evasive, non-commital reply you get when someone doesn't want to give up info in the affirmative or negative.
-
Better yet, don't even mention WoK so that Brandon won't get suspicious.
[/paranoid]
-
Better yet, don't even mention WoK so that Brandon won't get suspicious.
[/paranoid]
once again, likely a good idea. Something like "In elantris, you say that the farther elantrians are from elantris, the weaker they get. What would happen if they, say, discovered space travel, and went to another planet? Would they become zombie like again? Or would they become normal? or would they die?"
That's how i'd phrase it, or something like that. Just to seem like an innocent "man, i really like elantris and put too much thought into weird questions about it!" kind of question.
-
Would they become zombie like again? Or would they become normal? or would they die?"
The problem with this idea is that the Shaod predates the city of Elantris. As per the Elantris annotations, the city of Elantris strengthened abilities that were already present. So taking an Elantrian away from the city would reduce their power, but it wouldn't turn them into zombies.
-
Would they become zombie like again? Or would they become normal? or would they die?"
The problem with this idea is that the Shaod predates the city of Elantris. As per the Elantris annotations, the city of Elantris strengthened abilities that were already present. So taking an Elantrian away from the city would reduce their power, but it wouldn't turn them into zombies.
The question isn't about taking them away from Elantris, it's about taking them away from the Dor, which originates on Sel.
-
Would they become zombie like again? Or would they become normal? or would they die?"
The problem with this idea is that the Shaod predates the city of Elantris. As per the Elantris annotations, the city of Elantris strengthened abilities that were already present. So taking an Elantrian away from the city would reduce their power, but it wouldn't turn them into zombies.
Right, but thats in terms of the context of anywhere on the planet. Anywhere on the planet, the flow of the dor is stronger than it was when the Reod was present, since only a small trickle came through. The Reod was a result of almost no Dor getting through to the elantrians. Presumably, as they move away from the planet, the Dor will slow to a trickle again, because the Dor is coming from the shards.
-
The question isn't about taking them away from Elantris, it's about taking them away from the Dor, which originates on Sel.
Heh. It's not about taking them away from Elantris, or about taking them away from the Dor. It's about taking them away from the power of Aona.
The Dor doesn't originate on Elantris. AonDor is a way to *access* the Dor. Just like Mistborn don't get power from the metals they burn, but rather, burning the metals gives them access to the power.
In Elantris, there's references to the Jeskeri having a true understanding of the Dor. In Liar of Partinel, Hoid was a Jesk.
Hoid in TWoK made the smoke of the fire dance when he told a story. That sounds similar to the Lightweaving used in LoP, only vastly simpler. Maybe some of the shard powers can be used anywhere, and some only work in proximity to the shard, but I suspect that AonDor is only as strong as it is in Elantris because Elantris is a huge focus for their power.
-
In Liar of Partinel, Hoid was a Jesk.
The use of Jesk in Liar isn't a connection to Elantris. From this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5165.15):
Ookla, you have a very good point on Jesk/Hoid. I should probably change jesk. It's a left-over from Dragonsteel Prime, but right now it's kind of a distraction.
He just used the same name, and never changed it since Dragonsteel didn't get published.
-
Ok, so here is my theory on the identities of the three travelers in the interlude.
First off, Grump is Galladon. I can't believe people are even debating this one. The fact that his skin isn't glowing or silver isn't even a consideration. Elantrians can create food out of thin air, I'm sure they can come up with a good disguise or change their shapes.
Second: I think Blunt is Shuden. He matches the description and when he spoke in the books he was, well Blunt.
Third, I think Thinker is Kiin. He matches the description and towards the end of Elantris he is fighting half a dozen soldiers and they stop him by smashing him in the head with a rock, thus the scar.
Also, he seems to talk like Kiin. In Elantris when his friends start to argue, he interrupts them, starting his sentence with the word "Gentlemen." Thinker does the same. Also, Kiin has an unusual background that I think makes him an interesting choice. Its hinted at that he should have been king and its said that he's one of the most well traveled men, with various relics from his traveling days. Who better to take if you're going to another world?
I"ll admit, Shuden as Blunt is pretty weak. Mainly because Blunt is described as a solider and Shuden didn't strike me as the solider type.
Then again, part of me wants to say that one of them is Ham. I could see Thinker being Ham. (Ham also took at head wound at the end of HoA).
-
Ok, so here is my theory on the identities of the three travelers in the interlude.
First off, Grump is Galladon. I can't believe people are even debating this one. The fact that his skin isn't glowing or silver isn't even a consideration. Elantrians can create food out of thin air, I'm sure they can come up with a good disguise or change their shapes.
Second: I think Blunt is Shuden. He matches the description and when he spoke in the books he was, well Blunt.
Third, I think Thinker is Kiin. He matches the description and towards the end of Elantris he is fighting half a dozen soldiers and they stop him by smashing him in the head with a rock, thus the scar.
Also, he seems to talk like Kiin. In Elantris when his friends start to argue, he interrupts them, starting his sentence with the word "Gentlemen." Thinker does the same. Also, Kiin has an unusual background that I think makes him an interesting choice. Its hinted at that he should have been king and its said that he's one of the most well traveled men, with various relics from his traveling days. Who better to take if you're going to another world?
I"ll admit, Shuden as Blunt is pretty weak. Mainly because Blunt is described as a solider and Shuden didn't strike me as the solider type.
Then again, part of me wants to say that one of them is Ham. I could see Thinker being Ham. (Ham also took at head wound at the end of HoA).
Not sure about Shuden or Kiin, as I haven't read Elantris in a while. I do however agree with you on the glowing; it would be easy to change. There are so many possible explanations! Maybe it happens when they are too far away, maybe it doesn't. Either way, it doesn't matter. Creating a disguise that would last separated from the Dor shouldn't be too hard, plus think of this. They are part of an organization that is called the 17th shard, and likely has members that use nearly every one of Brandon's magic systems, including ones we don't yet know about. Shouldn't it be relatively simple for the 17th shard to find one way to disguise one of their members, so that they could use a skilled and knowledgeable operative without him glowing and scaring off he locals?
-
Ok, so here is my theory on the identities of the three travelers in the interlude.
First off, Grump is Galladon. I can't believe people are even debating this one. The fact that his skin isn't glowing or silver isn't even a consideration. Elantrians can create food out of thin air, I'm sure they can come up with a good disguise or change their shapes.
Second: I think Blunt is Shuden. He matches the description and when he spoke in the books he was, well Blunt.
Third, I think Thinker is Kiin. He matches the description and towards the end of Elantris he is fighting half a dozen soldiers and they stop him by smashing him in the head with a rock, thus the scar.
Also, he seems to talk like Kiin. In Elantris when his friends start to argue, he interrupts them, starting his sentence with the word "Gentlemen." Thinker does the same. Also, Kiin has an unusual background that I think makes him an interesting choice. Its hinted at that he should have been king and its said that he's one of the most well traveled men, with various relics from his traveling days. Who better to take if you're going to another world?
I"ll admit, Shuden as Blunt is pretty weak. Mainly because Blunt is described as a solider and Shuden didn't strike me as the solider type.
Then again, part of me wants to say that one of them is Ham. I could see Thinker being Ham. (Ham also took at head wound at the end of HoA).
I hadn't considered Kiin, but that would make some sense. Though the other candidates (Raoden and Ham) fit the name better.
Blunt is the real mystery to me. Sure, it could be Shuden, but the only connection there is skin color. I just don't think we hear enough about this guy to know who he is.
It's also entirely possible that Thinker and Blunt (and Grumpy, for that matter) are entirely new characters. That being said, I'm still reasonably confident that Grumpy is Galladon.
So, Erik, have you finished WoK now? I know you said you were still going through it at the signing...
-
LOL, no. I'm barely a few chapters past the interlude :D
-
LOL, no. I'm barely a few chapters past the interlude :D
You're braver than I am, then. I would have been too afraid to step into this thread for fear of spoilers.
-
I think it's worth remembering Brandon's philosophy on magic systems as sciences: we'll never know everything. It'd be silly to think Raoden would suddenly lose interest in discovering all he could about AonDor. Finding a way to detach distance from the equation for accessing the Dor doesn't seem terribly unlikely.
As for losing silveriness -- if Elantrians are at all like the Returned, perhaps they can eventually learn how to interact with their "divine" aspects. I.e. [Warbreaker Spoiler] Vasher's inverted breath [/spoiler].
-
I'm pretty sure that we can't know that Grump is Galladon. His speech patterns are somewhat similar to how Gallandon speaks, but it's hardly unique to him. Part of it is just Brandon's voice leaking through, folks. Blasphemy, I know, but Kaladin often uses "Friend" in the same way Grump does here. It's just not compelling enough. We don't know enough, people!
Is he a Dula from Sel? Probably.
-
This might be nitpicking a bit but this is really bothering me. I think you guys have the whole Reod thing wrong. The Elantrins didn't become "zombies" because the dor was cut off or slowed down. They became zombies because after the chasm was added to landscape the Aon was suddenly INCOMPLETE, thus their transformation into elantrins got "stuck" halfway through. Now I have no idea what would happen if they went to another planet. But they wouldn't become zombies again. That was a very unique set of circumstances. (Which it now seems was orchestrated by odium)
-
This might be nitpicking a bit but this is really bothering me. I think you guys have the whole Reod thing wrong. The Elantrins didn't become "zombies" because the dor was cut off or slowed down. They became zombies because after the chasm was added to landscape the Aon was suddenly INCOMPLETE, thus their transformation into elantrins got "stuck" halfway through. Now I have no idea what would happen if they went to another planet. But they wouldn't become zombies again. That was a very unique set of circumstances. (Which it now seems was orchestrated by odium)
Well, the issue there seemed to be that they were getting the Dor "wrong", or perhaps not enough.
The question is how reliant Elantrians are on the Dor to survive.
-
This might be nitpicking a bit but this is really bothering me. I think you guys have the whole Reod thing wrong. The Elantrins didn't become "zombies" because the dor was cut off or slowed down. They became zombies because after the chasm was added to landscape the Aon was suddenly INCOMPLETE, thus their transformation into elantrins got "stuck" halfway through. Now I have no idea what would happen if they went to another planet. But they wouldn't become zombies again. That was a very unique set of circumstances. (Which it now seems was orchestrated by odium)
Well, the issue there seemed to be that they were getting the Dor "wrong", or perhaps not enough.
The question is how reliant Elantrians are on the Dor to survive.
Exactly, I never read anything in Elantris that implied they required the Dor OR the Aon that Elantris formed in order to actually survive. They simply received their power ( and for a while their curse ) through it. I feel like if an Elantrin were to venture far enough away from the Elantris aon then they would simply revert back to whatever they would be if the city of Elantris had never been built. Which could very well be the non-glowy guys we saw in the interlude.
The question I ask is that if their powers are so vastly reduced as they travel away from Elantris (that's a fact) then what power are they using to planet-hop? As far as we know there is no actual 17th shard, that's probably just some romantic name that the group came up with. And if they can't use the AonDor, then we have to assume the Elantrins ( if they are indeed Elantrins and not just some random people from Sel) have discovered quite a bit more about the cosmere than they previously knew.
-
The question I ask is that if their powers are so vastly reduced as they travel away from Elantris (that's a fact) then what power are they using to planet-hop?
They could have just used the teleporting Aon to make a one-way trip from Sel.
-
The question I ask is that if their powers are so vastly reduced as they travel away from Elantris (that's a fact) then what power are they using to planet-hop?
They could have just used the teleporting Aon to make a one-way trip from Sel.
I doubt this. No one wants to be lost so far away from home. They probably have a way to get back, maybe being helped by the person in charge of the 17th shard (the person Hoid's letter is addressed to?).
-
The question I ask is that if their powers are so vastly reduced as they travel away from Elantris (that's a fact) then what power are they using to planet-hop?
They could have just used the teleporting Aon to make a one-way trip from Sel.
I doubt this. No one wants to be lost so far away from home. They probably have a way to get back, maybe being helped by the person in charge of the 17th shard (the person Hoid's letter is addressed to?).
Yeah, I just meant that they couldn't get back by the same means. I'm sure they know of a way to get back, though.
-
Using the teleportation Aon requires knowing the precise direction and distance to your destination. Figuring out that information for an interplanetary jump with sufficient precision to neither land underground (and instantly die) nor high in the air (and probably die from impact) nor in outer space (and die from cold, lack of air, and friction of reentry) strikes me as implausibly difficult. Assuming most of real-world physics and cosmology is followed in the Cosmere, you would also have to account for the relative velocities of the two planets - which would require both changing your velocity drastically at the same time as the teleport and timing it correctly with microsecond or even nanosecond precision. Good luck with that.
The 17th Shard definitely does, as an organization, have a means of interplanetary travel, but I really doubt that particular Aon is involved.
-
Using the teleportation Aon requires knowing the precise direction and distance to your destination. Figuring out that information for an interplanetary jump with sufficient precision to neither land underground (and instantly die) nor high in the air (and probably die from impact) nor in outer space (and die from cold, lack of air, and friction of reentry) strikes me as implausibly difficult. Assuming most of real-world physics and cosmology is followed in the Cosmere, you would also have to account for the relative velocities of the two planets - which would require both changing your velocity drastically at the same time as the teleport and timing it correctly with microsecond or even nanosecond precision. Good luck with that.
The 17th Shard definitely does, as an organization, have a means of interplanetary travel, but I really doubt that particular Aon is involved.
Fair enough.
-
I think I remember reading that the plan was to write the Stormlight Archive later but that Brandon felt comfortable doing it now. Maybe the mystery would be solved or somewhat explained by the Elantris sequel or some other book that hasn't been written yet.
-
Among the Elantrians' numbers is a math savant and an idea man. Also: if they ARE Elantrians (in the interlude), perhaps they're hunting Hoid because he's their ride home!
As for the nature of the Aons and the Elantrians, my understanding: the city is constantly affected Elantrians, every moment, with constant superbuffs. Screw up the main Aon, and you're buffing everyone incorrectly (like the woman who was healed improperly in the story whose aftereffects sounded exactly like the Zombie-elantrians).
I dunno about you, but that seems like a critical weakness to the Elantrians. One Raoden would be trying hard to close up. If his fix also makes the Dor easily accessible on other planets, I won't be surprised.
-
I know that Brandon is thinking of writing a few standalone books in addition to the stormlight archive, so I hope we may see a sequel to either Elantris, Warbreaker or both sometime in the next ten years