Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: zebobes on September 01, 2010, 07:15:53 AM
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This is definitely going to be a big area of exploration in future books, but I thought the whole idea for the Parshmen and Parshendi to be already very interesting. They definitely weren't the usual Trolloc or Orc evil characters... in fact, I had a hard time figuring out what they were supposed to be until towards the end of the book. A reread is in order now that all the proper nouns in the books are acquiring definitions in my head.
I really liked the way Brandon came up with Parshendi. It definitely was quite different from the humanoid monsters in most fantasy-I just took them to be a different human race, just with shell growing abilities. It definitely fits in well with the whole world building aspect of it, with the shellish/chitinous construction of everything.
I also liked the parallels to the Roman empire, where the majority of the society was slaves, and the sinister threat underneath it all of the slaves overpowering their masters.
I also liked the mysterious nature of having these humanoid creatures, the parshmen, being so... animalistic. Shen seemed to act almost like a robot, but with tiny hints of a personality. I look forward to future books, where the parshmen become "unlocked", and I think it will be fascinating for someone like Shen to develop a personality.
In some ways, they have a very "insect" feel, especially with their hive mind capabilities.
Can't wait to see where Brandon will take all of this... but unfortunately, I will HAVE to wait... at least two to three years for the next update. Sigh.
By the way, I don't know how Brandon can be such a prolific writer. I know that he was way ahead work wise, but seriously, two huge books coming out in the same year. And an Alcatraz book to come. He's a scary man. Slow and steady writers, shake in your boots with fear.
I think his humanity will be more apparent if he can't get AMOL finished by next year. Is that actually possible? He's not going to start writing until the beginning of next year... surely he won't be able to make a November publication...
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I think part of how people stay such prolific writers is basically that it's what you do to enjoy yourself when you're alone, and successfully cutting out some less productive hobbies helps. (It's not so hard with the way most TV is now anyway :P)
I liked the Parshendi too, especially how it was more incidental that the Parshmen were slaves. It'll be interesting to see if the Parshendi change as well when Odium wakes them up, or if they're already under control and this is how the Voidbringers always acted. If it's the latter it's probably great for them as antagonists, although it would be quite hard to fit them to the theme of hatred that you'd expect from a Shard named Odium.
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It might just be that Odium is more detached than we think.
We know that Ati (Ruin) was changed from a caring and compassionate person into an incredibly destructive force. Even if Odium is Rayse, it's possible that his personality changed, too.
Maybe he just likes to watch people die in a more distant way. Not necessarily... bloodthirsty, but still disturbing.
At this point, it's just as likely that he's content to sit back and watch the humans and the parshmen kill each other.
This is me just pulling stuff out of thin air, of course. I would actually be quite surprised if I were right...
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I don't for a second believe that the parshmen are the Voidbringers, not completely in any sense. I think there's much more to this that we can't possibly know yet.
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I don't for a second believe that the parshmen are the Voidbringers, not completely in any sense. I think there's much more to this that we can't possibly know yet.
I understand this gut-feeling response, but I think that in this case, Brandon is not leading us astray so much as not telling us the whole story. The Parshmen probably are the Voidbringers, but what that means is not yet clear.
Some of the chapter bumps are pretty clearly from Jasnah's (sp?) notes. There's a whole series of them devoted to describing the Voidbringers. Try rereading them without the chapters in-between and I think you'll see what I'm getting at.
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I do think that the Parshendi are Voidbringers, but like Chaos, I don't think it's that obvious. And unlike Jasnah, I think there is definitely a supernatural component to it. The real question is whether, or more accurately, how, Odium figures into the Parshmen's behavior.
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I don't think the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, or of they are, I think they are being forced or tricked to. It seems that they have too much respect to attempt the decimation of the humans.
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I imagine the parshendi/parshmen collective is/are the foot soldiers referenced in the introduction.
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I don't think the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, or of they are, I think they are being forced or tricked to. It seems that they have too much respect to attempt the decimation of the humans.
Well, this really is the rub, right? That's what I mean by not knowing what being a Voidbringer really means.
The Parshendi's behavior in the book is utterly bizarre. They apparently assassinate Gavilar for no reason any human understands, and contrary to all reason, but do so "honorably"---hiring an assassin dressed all in white so that everybody can see him coming and then admitting to the assassination after the fact. They then withdraw to an apparently prepared holdout---a very effective one, too. They then engage with fights with the Alethi at just the right rate to keep the Alethi busy and distracted---but "honorably" so, or something like that.
They also were apparently looking for something. The end of the fight between Dalinar and the Parshendi shardbearer was very strange indeed.
Something is up with them. They probably are Voidbringers. What that means, or why it should be true, I haven't got the foggiest notion. Maybe they were created by one Shard and then perverted by another? Maybe they're really on the "good" side, and we just don't see the whole story? Who knows?
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I don't think the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, or of they are, I think they are being forced or tricked to. It seems that they have too much respect to attempt the decimation of the humans.
The Parshendi's behavior in the book is utterly bizarre. They apparently assassinate Gavilar for no reason any human understands, and contrary to all reason, but do so "honorably"---hiring an assassin dressed all in white so that everybody can see him coming and then admitting to the assassination after the fact. They then withdraw to an apparently prepared holdout---a very effective one, too. They then engage with fights with the Alethi at just the right rate to keep the Alethi busy and distracted---but "honorably" so, or something like that.
They also were apparently looking for something. The end of the fight between Dalinar and the Parshendi shardbearer was very strange indeed.
Well, the Almighty does mention that Odium is bound by certain rules. Maybe the Parshendi's honorable behavior is a part of that.
Also, I'd assume they were looking for the black crystal sphere that Gavilar gave to Szeth. Which I'd assume is something infused with "black Stormlight". Dalinar did mention seeing a "dark highstorm" in one of his visions, and it's possible the orb was infused by that.
Maybe.
Something is up with them. They probably are Voidbringers. What that means, or why it should be true, I haven't got the foggiest notion. Maybe they were created by one Shard and then perverted by another? Maybe they're really on the "good" side, and we just don't see the whole story? Who knows?
Another possibility is that they want shardblades, and they figured that getting Elhokar to go to war with them was the best way to lure out a lot of Shardbearers.
Although I'm basically pulling that theory out of thin air, so take it with a massive pile of salt.
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Something is up with them. They probably are Voidbringers. What that means, or why it should be true, I haven't got the foggiest notion. Maybe they were created by one Shard and then perverted by another? Maybe they're really on the "good" side, and we just don't see the whole story? Who knows?
Another possibility is that they want shardblades, and they figured that getting Elhokar to go to war with them was the best way to lure out a lot of Shardbearers.
Although I'm basically pulling that theory out of thin air, so take it with a massive pile of salt.
That's not a bad theory. I still think their behavior is weirder than that, but it's a good answer.
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Personally, I think the black sphere is more likely than shardblades. It seems to have significance, from the way Gavilar treats it.
The only part that doesn't fit is that the Parshendi didn't tell Szeth to recover it. And Gavilar probably wouldn't have given it to an assassin working for the Parshendi, unless he didn't know that they were after it, and he was trying to keep it from someone else.
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My thinking is that if the Parshendi are looking for the black sphere (nice theory about the dark stormlight, BTW) that not having Szeth grab it fits into their "honor" system. Maybe Gavilar stole it from them? And he and Dalinar look enough alike that the Parshendi Shardbearer thought he found Gavilar when confronting Dalinar. But, wait, they killed Gavilar. Just ignore my ramblings.
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My thinking is that if the Parshendi are looking for the black sphere (nice theory about the dark stormlight, BTW) that not having Szeth grab it fits into their "honor" system. Maybe Gavilar stole it from them? And he and Dalinar look enough alike that the Parshendi Shardbearer thought he found Gavilar when confronting Dalinar. But, wait, they killed Gavilar. Just ignore my ramblings.
Maybe they assumed Dalinar would have the sphere?
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Probable.
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Personally, I think the black sphere is more likely than shardblades. It seems to have significance, from the way Gavilar treats it.
The only part that doesn't fit is that the Parshendi didn't tell Szeth to recover it. And Gavilar probably wouldn't have given it to an assassin working for the Parshendi, unless he didn't know that they were after it, and he was trying to keep it from someone else.
Gavilar did not suspect the parshendi of sending the assasin. I think he wanted to keep the black sphere from someone else.
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The three-diamond society, maybe? (I forget what Jasnah called them.)
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Personally, I think the black sphere is more likely than shardblades. It seems to have significance, from the way Gavilar treats it.
The only part that doesn't fit is that the Parshendi didn't tell Szeth to recover it. And Gavilar probably wouldn't have given it to an assassin working for the Parshendi, unless he didn't know that they were after it, and he was trying to keep it from someone else.
Gavilar did not suspect the parshendi of sending the assasin. I think he wanted to keep the black sphere from someone else.
True, but just because he wasn't trying to keep the sphere from the Parshendi doesn't mean they weren't looking for it.
The three-diamond society, maybe? (I forget what Jasnah called them.)
Hm.
Now that's a definite possibility.
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Gavilar did not suspect the parshendi of sending the assasin. I think he wanted to keep the black sphere from someone else.
True, but just because he wasn't trying to keep the sphere from the Parshendi doesn't mean they weren't looking for it.
i suppose. But that means he wanted them no one to get it. Also what did the assasin send with it?
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i suppose. But that means he wanted them no one to get it. Also what did the assasin send with it?
Huh?
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my bad the quote system hates me appearently. I was saying that the parshendi we're likly not looking for the sphere. Gavilar was suspicious of other factions not the parshendi. They also did not send szeth for it.
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my bad the quote system hates me appearently. I was saying that the parshendi we're likly not looking for the sphere. Gavilar was suspicious of other factions not the parshendi.
Just because Gavilar didn't know they were looking for it doesn't mean they weren't. Keep in mind that nobody knows anything about the Parshendi.
They also did not send szeth for it.
True. But keep in mind that:
My thinking is that if the Parshendi are looking for the black sphere (nice theory about the dark stormlight, BTW) that not having Szeth grab it fits into their "honor" system.
It's still a possibility, although I agree it's less likely.
It might also be that they didn't know Gavilar had it, but would be interested in it if they knew.
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I'd like to point out that even if the Parshendi/Parshmen are Voidbringers, and even if they are of Odium, that doesn't mean they like it. Ruin's creatures certainly tried to avoid serving their master.
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Shardblades were supposably given to the radiants to fight the voidbringers, so the voidbringers having them seems strange.
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Shardblades were supposably given to the radiants to fight the voidbringers, so the voidbringers having them seems strange.
Not really. You're assuming the voidbringers never managed to kill a single radiant, which is unlikely.
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Well, wait a minute. Why can't the Parshmen be voidbringers, and the Parshendi be something else? Or maybe the parshmen can be controlled by voidbringers, or whoever it is that enslaves them?
The Parshendi act strange. Beyond strange, really, but what if they're really GOOD "people"?
Crackpot Theory Alert.
Consider:
- The Parshendi are not hostile when first they meet humans.
- The Parshendi arrive around the same time that people start saying crazy stuff while dying
- The Parshendi then have Gavilar assassinated, take the blame for it, and run.
- The Parshendi draw the ten highprinces of Alethkar out in a (supposedly) unified war against them
- The Parshendi fight with "honor"
- The Parshendi Shardbearer recognizes Dalinar, and doesn't kill him.
- The Parshendi leave Kaladin be when he exhibits Surgebinding powers.
It seems as if the Parshendi have a "hive mind" like others have mentioned. Wouldn't this, then, imply that all their memories could be "preserved" over the years? This would explain why they recognize Kaladin for what he is, or what his magic represents... a Radiant.
Why would the Voidbringers NOT attack a Radiant?
No, no, something is wrong with that.
The Parshendi killed Gavilar to draw the highprinces out to war. They recognize Dalinar, the man who is charged with uniting Alethkar. They recognize -- and almost revere -- Kaladin's abilities. They have weapons far more sophisticated than they should - remnants from the older wars? They arrive when people start predicting the Desolation. Just because two events occur at the same time does not mean one caused the other.... Perhaps when the "death talks" happened it occurred within their own people as well, and they recognized it for what it was and set out?
It seems as if they're trying to push Alethkar into becoming what it once was: a nation of united fighters who will stand together against the voidbringers. (Which begs the question, is this really a GOOD thing? Taravangian seems to think not. Hmm....)
My thought? They fought on the side of the Radiants, and they remember it, and they're certainly NOT what they seem.
Of course, none of that makes any sense when you consider that they're killing Alethi people. But it is the beginning of an explanation, at least.
The Parshmen, though, aren't the same as the Parshendi. And they very well COULD be the voidbringers.
And I think there's certainly something to their "respect of the dead." There's definitely something to that... but what?
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Some slightly disorganized thoughts it would be cool if anyone could comment on:
On when they run after Kaladin's lashing, it's possible they freak out because they pass down stories or legends about the radiants.
The talking before death thing is because the Everdesolation or whatever (you know what I'm talking about, I hope) is about to come.
what happened to parshendi surge binders?
wait how would parshendi surge binders even work, without the radiant ideals, did they also bind with spren?
It seemed like Parshendi were just Parshmen after they got set off.
assassinating Gavilar didn't help the unification effort at all
-if anything, they are acting perfectly to prevent unification, because if the highprinces were at home then Dalinar could be conquering and Elhokar could be taking over, versus on the plains they stayed in the state of disarray for 6 years.
-this was why I was thinking they could be acting from Odium's commands, intended to prevent the unification that might enable the Alethi to stand against the Everstorm. Of course, the honor thing still doesn't make sense.
-why didn't the parshendi have Szeth come back to them after killing Gavilar? They just gave him up?
we don't actually know what the parshendi shard bearer would have done with dalinar, having been interrupted, he might have been planning to question him, beat him up, etc. and then kill him.
where did the parshendi come from?
how does parshendi surge binding work? (prologue says they can hold storm light in without leaking)
the one thing that really doesn't seem to add up, though, is still the conflict between the Parshendi being honorable versus fighting on the side of the thunderclasts and the Almighty stepping in on the side of alethkar
-are the Thunderclasts like super strong or something? Because the parshendi definitely don't seem to be on par the total ownage described alongside the desolations
PLEASE put more theories on why they are honorable & why they respect the dead so much
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-this was why I was thinking they could be acting from Odium's commands, intended to prevent the unification that might enable the Alethi to stand against the Everstorm. Of course, the honor thing still doesn't make sense.
Remember what the Almighty said about Odium: "He is bound by some rules". That could mean Odium has a sense of honor.
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Thunderclasts and Voidbringers are not the same thing. In the Prelude, Kalak describes an enormous stone beast, that's a Thunderclast.
The Parshendi don't have Surgebinders. They have those little bits of gems in their beards that have Stormlight in them, that may be what you're thinking of.
The only reason that the Parshendi Shardbearer didn't kill Dalinar is that Kaladin stepped in and stabbed him.
And it seems like the Parshendi were more afraid of Kaladin than anything. They just are disciplined enough not to run from him.
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On when they run after Kaladin's lashing, it's possible they freak out because they pass down stories or legends about the radiants.
I agree. But the question is, do they act from fear, honor, reverence? At first they try to fight him, but then they just leave him be. Out of respect for his skills? Maybe. But what's with the chant then?
If they were voidbringers and evil beings, why wouldn't they try and kill him right then and there?
The talking before death thing is because the Everdesolation or whatever (you know what I'm talking about, I hope) is about to come.
Yes. But Taravangian (and likely Jasnah) will link the coming of these occurrences with the meeting with the Parshendi. And likely they are linked... but in what way? Does the meeting signify that a war will come, or is the clashing of the two cultures a form of weakening the people that would stand against the voidbringers, or is it because Gavilar found that stone (perhaps he stole it from them?), or is it just coincidence?
The fact that there is overwhelming evidence for the Parshendi/Parshmen being the voidbringers, and the fact that the meeting of the two coincide with the onset of the Everstorm... it just seems fishy. Either there's some sort of major twist coming, or the Parshendi aren't the true threat of the voidbringers. I mean, all that evidence in book one feels way too convenient to me.
what happened to parshendi surge binders?
wait how would parshendi surge binders even work, without the radiant ideals, did they also bind with spren?
Well, we don't really know what's going on with that. And again, that's assuming that the Parshendi are the voidbringers. Assuming that's correct (as it seems to be), then that would require the spren bonding with the Parshendi. I don't see that happening. It's more likely that the abilities can manifest themselves without the spren, and the spren are necessary to either (a) enhance the powers or (b) bond the surgebinders to a cause.
It seemed like Parshendi were just Parshmen after they got set off.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
assassinating Gavilar didn't help the unification effort at all
-if anything, they are acting perfectly to prevent unification, because if the highprinces were at home then Dalinar could be conquering and Elhokar could be taking over, versus on the plains they stayed in the state of disarray for 6 years.
Maybe. But consider that Gavilar was the only one who believed in the Codes at the time. He would not have lasted long as king (and he didn't, now did he?). And Dalinar at the time thought that unity could come from conquering. I could go on, but for now let me just say that no, I don't think there's really any chance that there would have been unity with Gavilar on the throne. However, killing the new king and thus FORCING all the highprinces to go to war? Hm.
I'm not saying it makes much sense, I'm just trying to find a way to make the oddities of the Parshendi make some sort of sense. They're definitely not what they seem, and it just feels too easy to label them as voidbringers. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming, and I can't see how it's wrong at this point, but... I don't know. Sanderson is a tricky guy, and this smacks of trickery to me.
-this was why I was thinking they could be acting from Odium's commands, intended to prevent the unification that might enable the Alethi to stand against the Everstorm. Of course, the honor thing still doesn't make sense.
-why didn't the parshendi have Szeth come back to them after killing Gavilar? They just gave him up?
Neither of those actions make sense at all. The honor makes no sense. The Shardbearer raising his blade to Dalinar makes no sense. Letting Szeth go makes no sense. Killing Gavilar makes no sense. Being so reverent of their dead when nothing else drives them to passion makes no sense.... What the heck, man?
we don't actually know what the parshendi shard bearer would have done with dalinar, having been interrupted, he might have been planning to question him, beat him up, etc. and then kill him.
Absolutely true. But the way he speaks to Dalinar indicates that he was searching for him. Why? Just to kill him? To get some answers makes more sense. But HOW would he know to look for Dalinar, and why?
Perhaps they know something of the message Szeth left, and needed Dalinar dead along with Gavilar. Or perhaps it had something to do with his visions.
the one thing that really doesn't seem to add up, though, is still the conflict between the Parshendi being honorable versus fighting on the side of the thunderclasts and the Almighty stepping in on the side of alethkar
It's all quite wonky, isn't it? I don't buy the excuse that "Odium is bound by honor" or what-have-you. If he just killed the Almighty, how the heck can he be bound by honor?
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Thunderclasts and Voidbringers are not the same thing. In the Prelude, Kalak describes an enormous stone beast, that's a Thunderclast.
Yeah that's what I was thinking of. And the prelude is describing the scene after the Desolation where the Heralds finally abandoned them, with things like "Orange violet and red blood" --the red from humans, orange from parshmen, and violet from thunderclasts. The thunderclasts show up again in Dalinar's vision were he talks to the guy who wrote the way of kings--the stone beasts he sees on the ground, if you compare the descriptions, are literally identical: they both are described as having arrow like heads, skeletal bodies, and appearing to be made from stone. Also, the descriptions of them as massive beasts match the descriptions given for the voidbringers as being a little under 20 feet. Because the only word used in legends to refer to whatever force attacked during the desolations is "Voidbringers" any definition of voidbringers would have to include all of the forces that attacked during the desolations, among which were the Thunderclasts, as seen in both scenes.
The Parshendi don't have Surgebinders. They have those little bits of gems in their beards that have Stormlight in them, that may be what you're thinking of.
No, I'm thinking of the prelude where Kalak describes massive cracks in the ground where surgebinders fought. That could be read to mean only that human surgebinders fought against voidbringers, but a more natural reading would seem to be that surgebinders fought against each other, since the verb is left open ended like that. This is especially because in the prologue Szeth mentions legends that match the height description of Thunderclasts, and also says that Voidbringers are able to hold in stormlight perfectly (after he breathes it in and starts leaking). Also, being one of the Shin and having gotten his information from the same sources that taught him how to use lashings and be a like super powerful windrunner, which almost nobody in the world even knows exists anymore, his sources are probably more reliable than any of the other "modern day" ones. Also, it seems unlikely that Brandon would plant secret hints that you would never even notice if you weren't paying attention, and then end up saying they were false legends, as it seems to be much more likely a foreshadowing technique so that after the the big reveal re-reads of the series will leave us going like "Oh my god it was right there the whole time!" Regardless, it seems likely that some group among the Voidbringers had surge binding of some sort, and I just kind of figured the Parshmen were a lot more likely than thunderclasts.
The only reason that the Parshendi Shardbearer didn't kill Dalinar is that Kaladin stepped in and stabbed him.
That's fine as long as we agree that they're not secretly trying to unify the Alethi like whoever I meant that in response to said.
And it seems like the Parshendi were more afraid of Kaladin than anything. They just are disciplined enough not to run from him.
Actually they do run from him, when he speaks the Words and reverse lashes all of the arrows to his shield, all of the ones that see it run away. And then all fight later on, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Anyways, sorry I didn't have my book to get the exact pages for the quotes--lent it to my brother--and I think more people have commented since Fireborn but I'm just going to post this since I already wrote it all out
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The Almighty didn't say he was bound by honor, just by certain rules. I think that these rules apply to all of the Shards. Didn't it say in HoA that Ruin and Preservation couldn't directly interfere with each other? Or was that more of a, I can't kill you without dying myself so I won't?
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On when they run after Kaladin's lashing, it's possible they freak out because they pass down stories or legends about the radiants.
I agree. But the question is, do they act from fear, honor, reverence? At first they try to fight him, but then they just leave him be. Out of respect for his skills? Maybe. But what's with the chant then?
If they were voidbringers and evil beings, why wouldn't they try and kill him right then and there?
I'm still gonna go with fear just because if it was honor or reverence then why would they have let all of the other Parshendi attack him? If they were consciously saying that they didn't want to attack him, then they would at least try to tell the other guys not to attack him either. Versus, running out of fear fits because even bad guys feel fear, and it also can fit with the chant because they seem to just chant related to whatever they're doing; if it's the first time they feel fear in the battle, then it would make sense for it to be a new chant they weren't singing before.
The talking before death thing is because the Everdesolation or whatever (you know what I'm talking about, I hope) is about to come.
Yes. But Taravangian (and likely Jasnah) will link the coming of these occurrences with the meeting with the Parshendi. And likely they are linked... but in what way? Does the meeting signify that a war will come, or is the clashing of the two cultures a form of weakening the people that would stand against the voidbringers, or is it because Gavilar found that stone (perhaps he stole it from them?), or is it just coincidence?
The fact that there is overwhelming evidence for the Parshendi/Parshmen being the voidbringers, and the fact that the meeting of the two coincide with the onset of the Everstorm... it just seems fishy. Either there's some sort of major twist coming, or the Parshendi aren't the true threat of the voidbringers. I mean, all that evidence in book one feels way too convenient to me.
Yeah once I get my book back I'm definitely gonna go back and reread those chapter intros. I was thinking just something like supernatural stuff starts going crazy when the Everstorm is here.
More importantly, though, the question of Parshendi v voidbringer does keep coming up. However, the "We didn't kill them, we enslaved them," or whatever Jasnah said was so styled like a big reveal that it has to be at least pretty true. Also, the evidence is huge when you know about it, but I didn't really see it coming so you might have just got it faster than everyone.
The one thing that doesn't seem to match up, though, is that in that vision with (Nomahodon?) Dalinar is told that they are "never ready for it." This doesn't seem to make sense at all; if it is one enemy, and you've got like a thousand years in between to prepare, then how much more do you need to be ready? It's possible that they always wait until humanity begins to forget about them and then strike, but that doesn't make sense because the Knights Radiant stay there the whole time. I was thinking maybe like there different types of voidbringers attacking each time, or maybe different slaves rise up and betray them each time, but that's total speculation.
The main thing that really doesn't seem to add up with this, though, is that the Parshendi really aren't that strong. Fighting out on the plains, it's like, probably tilted in the Alethi favor. Unless they just come in like massive numbers, it seems either the Thunderclasts or some other species would have to be the main threat, or the Parshmen would have to be much more deadly than Parshendi, or when they really want to fight they must just be like way stronger.
It seemed like Parshendi were just Parshmen after they got set off.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I meant that, as I read it originally, there was something (i.e. command from Odium) that would launch Parshmen into attack mode, and this had just been applied to the Parshendi and not the Parshmen.
assassinating Gavilar didn't help the unification effort at all
-if anything, they are acting perfectly to prevent unification, because if the highprinces were at home then Dalinar could be conquering and Elhokar could be taking over, versus on the plains they stayed in the state of disarray for 6 years.
Maybe. But consider that Gavilar was the only one who believed in the Codes at the time. He would not have lasted long as king (and he didn't, now did he?). And Dalinar at the time thought that unity could come from conquering. I could go on, but for now let me just say that no, I don't think there's really any chance that there would have been unity with Gavilar on the throne. However, killing the new king and thus FORCING all the highprinces to go to war? Hm.
I'm not saying it makes much sense, I'm just trying to find a way to make the oddities of the Parshendi make some sort of sense. They're definitely not what they seem, and it just feels too easy to label them as voidbringers. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming, and I can't see how it's wrong at this point, but... I don't know. Sanderson is a tricky guy, and this smacks of trickery to me.
I think I'm going to have to disagree because Dalinar is presented as a total military expert, and when he is commenting on Elhokar's performance as king he points out that the kingdom is in the most dangerous phase of it's development, where the strong king around which the princes can unite is dead, and the kingdom is at its most vulnerable because it's all up to the second in line. Gavilar and Dalinar were the super combo that united all the Alethi highprinces and still had plenty of momentum left, and if BWS was going to take the angle that Gavilar wouldn't have been able to hold it together, then this line would have definitely been given to a character who wasn't an expert on it, if not removed entirely.
Although, definitely no argument on Sanderson being a tricky guy :p
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One other possibility - what if the Thunderclasts were the only voidbringers, and parshmen fought on our side against them? And then we turned on them and enslaved them after. And then the Radiants quit because of that betrayal, they wanted no part of it. Of course, the epigraphs probably disprove that pretty quickly but it sounded good when I thought of it.
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The possibility that the Parshendi really are Voidbringers, and really on the side of Good has batted around in my head for a while, and I just can't make sense of it either way.
Just gotta learn more, I guess. The way I see it, they are most likely Voidbringers. What that means is up for grabs.
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If you assume that the Parshendi are Voidbringers, then I believe they do, or at least can have Surgebinders. There is a passage in the Prologue that hints at it (I only have the ebook version with me so I don't know the Hardcover page but it's early on):
Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist?
I think the next two sentences are significant to this topic too, but I can't quite get a handle on why.
His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.
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I think the next two sentences are significant to this topic too, but I can't quite get a handle on why.
His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.
To me, that says that his crime was something relating to proving the existence of voidbringers (probably in a dangerous way, or something that was sacrilegious to his people). So his punishment was for seeking out a legend of destruction, but his honor demands that they DO exist, otherwise his punishment is pointless.
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I think the next two sentences are significant to this topic too, but I can't quite get a handle on why.
His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.
To me, that says that his crime was something relating to proving the existence of voidbringers (probably in a dangerous way, or something that was sacrilegious to his people). So his punishment was for seeking out a legend of destruction, but his honor demands that they DO exist, otherwise his punishment is pointless.
Well, this makes sense, yes? They called him a Truthless---does that mean something like liar? Ostracism is too strong a word for what they did to him in response, if this theory is correct. It's gotta be a deep issue here, especially given how strong his honor apparently is.
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I think the next two sentences are significant to this topic too, but I can't quite get a handle on why.
His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.
To me, that says that his crime was something relating to proving the existence of voidbringers (probably in a dangerous way, or something that was sacrilegious to his people). So his punishment was for seeking out a legend of destruction, but his honor demands that they DO exist, otherwise his punishment is pointless.
Well, this makes sense, yes? They called him a Truthless---does that mean something like liar? Ostracism is too strong a word for what they did to him in response, if this theory is correct. It's gotta be a deep issue here, especially given how strong his honor apparently is.
Keep in mind that his honor might also be linked to his surgebinding powers via an honorspren, which could further explain his reluctance to disobey orders (though I'm sure there's more to it than that).
EDIT: I just had a crazy thought. What if the Parshmen are some kind of Spren? The near-mindlessness fits with what we know of the average spren.
Doesn't explain the Parshendi, though.
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I think Szeth's crime was more related to the fact that he could surgebind at all, perhaps combined with a decision to pick up a shardblade. In shin any any man who picks up a weapon is forced to become a soldier, and instantly the property of whoever holds his oathstone (although, you would think the man would have to have an oathstone already for that to work. maybe the stone shamans take care of that?). anyways, I read "his punishment demanded they didn't" to mean if there are no voidbringers, surgeebinders and shardblades are useless weapons and his fate as their wielder was to be Truthless. Perhaps if there was an obvious threat a Truthless is treated differently? "His honor demanded they did" would be a reference to that. If there were voidbringers then his decision would be honorable; a sort of way to sacrifice his independence to protect his country.
Incidentally - and this is starting to derail the thread a little bit – do you think the title Truthless bears any relation to the need to tell a truth to get to shadesmar?
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hubay: Szeth's conversation with the king near the end of the book suggests that Szeth was given the shardblade as part of his punishment. As for his abilities to surgebind, well, one thing that confuses me is how he's almost certainly had training in thsoe abilities/read a book about them (having the names for the three lashings which the ars arcanum says come from some ancient book about what the radiants called them), which he wouldn't have done as a truthless considering that he doesn't want to be a murderer, so, for some reason he received that training, pre-becoming truthless.
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I think Szeth's crime was more related to the fact that he could surgebind at all, perhaps combined with a decision to pick up a shardblade. In shin any any man who picks up a weapon is forced to become a soldier, and instantly the property of whoever holds his oathstone (although, you would think the man would have to have an oathstone already for that to work. maybe the stone shamans take care of that?). anyways, I read "his punishment demanded they didn't" to mean if there are no voidbringers, surgeebinders and shardblades are useless weapons and his fate as their wielder was to be Truthless. Perhaps if there was an obvious threat a Truthless is treated differently? "His honor demanded they did" would be a reference to that. If there were voidbringers then his decision would be honorable; a sort of way to sacrifice his independence to protect his country.
Very interesting. I like it.
Incidentally - and this is starting to derail the thread a little bit – do you think the title Truthless bears any relation to the need to tell a truth to get to shadesmar?
Possible. But we know so little about either that I don't think we can even make an educated guess.
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Saw seeds of this idea on another forum, and thinking about it and carrying it one step further....could the Voidbringers really just be one species, and Parshmen, Parshendi, Chasmfiends and Thunderclasts all just different stages of their lifecycle? Their first stage is mostly similar to humanity in form and perhaps thoughts, in their most human stage they might even be the most peaceful, not that aggressive. And then when their first stage is over, or they die...they don't actually die, and that's why they're so reverent of their dead...because they're not dead, merely in a kind of comatose or cocoon or pupating stage before they take a more warlike, destructive form and grow armor and become more hostile to humanity, more aggressive. Then they finish their second life stage, and again they're not dead, just hibernating or in a cocoon like stage...and then they become chasmfiends, more monstrous, more hostile, more aggressive...and then they die, and unless their gemheart is harvested first, a real death they can't recover from, they mutate or evolve even further, perhaps cocooned in the actual rock before they realize their final and most fearsome stage of their lifecycle...as monstrous, red-eyed thunderclasts, beings of hate and destruction and a fully realized, 'Adult' Voidbringer at the prime of their power?
And the custom and significance given to harvesting gemhearts is humanity's way of interrupting a Voidbringer's full gestation cycle and protecting them from Thunderclasts, the true power of Odium's armies in a Desolation...and also why its so important to the Parshendi that the gemhearts be protected from humanity.
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There's a big problem with that theory, though.
The Parshmen have been slaves for thousands of years. Why didn't the Parshendi or Thunderclasts ever show up during that time?
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Well do we know that there haven't been Parshendi in all that time? I thought it was more that they didn't interact with humanity until recently, but humans did know of them. As for thunderclasts, my idea was that the whole custom of fighting over gemhearts and harvesting them and the importance attributed to it was a kind of oral tradition passed down over generations so that even if written histories failed or were destroyed or were lost in translation, humans would continue to harvest the gemhearts and interrupt the Voidbringer lifecycle, keeping thunderclasts from gestating.
Another possibility is that the Voidbringer part of the parshmen lifecycle doesn't kick in until Odium starts to influence them again, gearing up for another Desolation. *Shrugs* All just speculation of course.
Another thing I saw someone bring up elsewhere that could be a possibility is like you suggested, that Parshendi are a kind of spren...warspren. It does make a certain kind of sense and if you think about it, on a world where there are spren of just about every type and attracted to just about every aspect of nature and human behavior...where are the warspren? War is so influential and everpresent on this planet, wouldn't there be an abundance of warspren or spren attracted to battle and violence? So where are they? Or are they Parshendi, or connected to the Parshendi in someway. Like maybe Warspren bond with Parshmen and give them Voidbinding in the same way Honorspren bond with humans and give them Surgebinding....and the Parshendi are just bonded Parshmen and kind of the Parshmen version of Knights Radiant.
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I would say they were Hatespren (to fit with Odium), but they don't seem at all hateful (except towards Kaladin when he's wearing the Parshendi armor).
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my idea was that the whole custom of fighting over gemhearts and harvesting them and the importance attributed to it was a kind of oral tradition passed down over generations so that even if written histories failed or were destroyed or were lost in translation, humans would continue to harvest the gemhearts and interrupt the Voidbringer lifecycle, keeping thunderclasts from gestating.
As far as I understood, the gemhearts were important for Soulcasting purposes. Also, this idea loses some traction considering that humanity has only known about the chasmfiends for 7 years. Remember, it was when the Alethi discovered the Parshendi that they also discovered the chasmfiends.
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My problem with the theory that the Parshendi/Parshmen are some kind of spren is the question... how and/or why did humanity enslave them?
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My problem with the theory that the Parshendi/Parshmen are some kind of spren is the question... how and/or why did humanity enslave them?
Same way you enslave anything else. And for the same reason.
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing about Spren that makes them difficult to control. The lack of true intelligence might even make it easier, in some cases.
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My problem with the Pashmen=spren theory is that they seem a bit too substantial. From my understanding of the spren, they were more like visual representations of things such as concepts and emotions.
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My problem with the Pashmen=spren theory is that they seem a bit too substantial. From my understanding of the spren, they were more like visual representations of things such as concepts and emotions.
Maybe.
As I said, it's just a wild theory, and we don't know enough about the Spren or the Parshmen yet to say much one way or another.
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I find the theory that the Parshmen/Parshendi are just other stages of Chasmfiends/Thunderclasts much more likely than the spren theory. Like Salkara said, they're just to substantial. Every spren we've seen so far, I've visualized as either a spirit type thing, or a very small plant, maybe like a mushroom. Which is kind of weird now that I think about it. But anyway, Syl is the only exception to this, and even she can't pick up more than a leaf. It would be rather difficult for the Parshendi to fight if they were Spren.
Also, if the Parshendi are bonded with Spren, why do we see no Surge/Void binding? You'd think that if they had the capability, they'd use it.
However, I also have my problems with the theory that Parshmen and/or Parshendi eventually become chasmfiends or thunderclasts. A lot of them. Like the fact that there are tons of parshmen and parshendi, and very few chasmfiends, and no thunderclasts. I even have a few reservations with chasmfiends becoming thunderclasts, though I think it is likely that they eventually do so. (My primary issue here is that when Dalinar sees thunderclasts in his visions, he doesn't associate them with chasmfiends, at all, though he apparently does associate the drawing of a thunderclast that Jasnah sends via the spanreeds with chasmfiends).
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With the parshmen, it just seems unlikely that they could be spren, and unlikely that they evolve in some way, or we'd see the evolution. Now the theory that they can be 'activated' somehow I can buy, though that opens a whole new can of worms.....
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I always thought of spren as bubbles; It added to the pseudo-oceanic theme. Parshmen as early chasmfiends is an interesting idea, but half the war is about the parshendi hunting and killing chasmfiends, so unless that's part of the process I doubt that's what they are.
I am curious as to how they reproduce. They must somehow, since they populate half the planet. But there's been no mention of parshbabies, as far as I can remember. Even if there isn't some strange voidbringer cylce it's possible that the dead parshmen are resuurected somehow, right? Maybe stormlight revives them, which is why they're just left in the wild.
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There does seem to be a notable absence of any sort of "warspren," and this would be explained if every single Parshendi had bonded with a warspren, since lots of parshendi bonded with lots of warspren = strange absence of warspren. This would also explain the Parshendi's at first inexplicable assassination of King Gavilar, because it provoked a war, and it could also explain why they seem content to hang out on the plains fighting the Alethi without ever really trying to end the fighting or escape. It would also explain their weird sense of honor on the battlefield, since there usually is supposed to be "honor in war" or something like that, at least in medieval/fantasy settings there usually is. The way they grow armor stuff could be the type of surgebinding that is granted by bonding with a war spren. I would be interested to know if they already had the armor when Gavilar originally discovered them.
(What if there are still more surgebinding powers even beyond what the knights radiant used? Like, the knights radiant were bonded with a specific ten types of spren but a Nahel bond with any type of spren would produce at least some type of surgebinding.)
Since the Chasmfiends go into chrysalis, they have to become something, and Thunderclasts definitely seem the most likely candidates. However, one thing is: what about all the other Great Shells? Do they all become Thunderclasts? No way, although maybe there are more voidbringers we haven't been introduced to yet.
And, the Parshendi become chasmfiends become thunderclasts theory isn't directly contradicted by the low number of chasmfiends, as it could be like a "seed is planted, only grows into chasfiends sometimes" sort of things, and nor is it contradicted by them cutting open the chasmfiends because they could never hold the plateau long enough for the chasmfiend to completely change, and the parshendi would cut it open regardless, so they might as well cut it open to feed their army.
---perhaps the parshmen only become parshendi when they bond with warspren, although I have no idea how that would happen since the parshmen are so docile
That line about "his punishment demanded they didn't, his honor demanded they did," though, is very interesting. I hadn't even noticed it so thanks to whoever brought it up.
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Re-reading the Prelude, I'm really not certain the Thunderclasts were ever considered Voidbringers. They're described as just joining the fray. Sounds kinda like a 3rd party consisting of massive, hungry, and aggressive beasts in the middle of a warzone.
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what about Dalinar's vision though? (with their bodies lying throughout kholinar)
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I thought those were smaller creatures than thunderclasts (which I'm under the impression are just chasmfiends -- or at least what a sabertooth tiger is to a modern tiger). Also, in the vision with the smokebag monsters (featuring awesome firepoker/table leg dual wielding), doesn't one of the Radiants outright say said monsters aren't voidbringers? If it's evil and heralds another Desolation but isn't a voidbringer, voidbringers must be something exceedingly specific. Thus, Parshendi as the only true voidbringers (whatever that even means!) makes the most sense to me.
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I thought those were smaller creatures than thunderclasts (which I'm under the impression are just chasmfiends -- or at least what a sabertooth tiger is to a modern tiger). Also, in the vision with the smokebag monsters (featuring awesome firepoker/table leg dual wielding), doesn't one of the Radiants outright say said monsters aren't voidbringers? If it's evil and heralds another Desolation but isn't a voidbringer, voidbringers must be something exceedingly specific. Thus, Parshendi as the only true voidbringers (whatever that even means!) makes the most sense to me.
Yes.
It's called Night's essence or something like that, and seems to be a common foot-soldier type of monster.
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Pg 15
The monstrosity was vaguely skeletal in shape, with unnaturally long limbs that sprouted from granite shoulders. The eyes were deep red spots on the arrowhead face, as if created by a fire burning deep within the stone.
Pg 850
Massive creatures, easily five or six times the seize of a person, their skin dull and grey like granite. They had long limbs and skeletal bodies, the forelegs-or were they arms?-set into wide shoulders. The faces were lean, narrow. Arrowlike.
so, Brandon seems to be going to a lot of trouble to let us know the two creatures are the same. Also, notice the ones in the vision are the ones described as massive. The point about that implying that voidbringers are something specific seems pretty good. It could also be, though, that voidbringers was specific to thunderclasts, or specific to parshendi, and the other was considered like "those weaker guys who fight with the voidbringers," or maybe one group was specifically leading the desolations with the other the foot-soldiers, though idk if nights essence are foot soldiers, since the clarification could've been because nights essence didn't actually do any of the fighting in the army v army desolations, they just rampaged random defenseless towns.
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I am curious as to how they reproduce. They must somehow, since they populate half the planet. But there's been no mention of parshbabies, as far as I can remember. Even if there isn't some strange voidbringer cylce it's possible that the dead parshmen are resuurected somehow, right? Maybe stormlight revives them, which is why they're just left in the wild.
I don't think so. When Bridge 4 is down searching the chasms, they find all kinds of Parshendi bodies, and at one point I believe Kaladin makes a comment about how the Parshendi bodies were heavy enough that a highstorm wouldn't move them (since that would be the best way for the bodies to be infused with Stormlight), so he would have noticed the distinct lack of bodies after a highstorm.
Also, remember at one point, Dalinar comments that he thinks he found a female Parshendi (he also put forth that maybe the pairs of fighters were husband and wife). That's a possible explanation of the reproduction.
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Pg 15
The monstrosity was vaguely skeletal in shape, with unnaturally long limbs that sprouted from granite shoulders. The eyes were deep red spots on the arrowhead face, as if created by a fire burning deep within the stone.
Pg 850
Massive creatures, easily five or six times the seize of a person, their skin dull and grey like granite. They had long limbs and skeletal bodies, the forelegs-or were they arms?-set into wide shoulders. The faces were lean, narrow. Arrowlike.
I guess 5-6 man-sizes didn't seem like enough to warrant a 6-foot-long hand (also stated on page 15). But I suppose that's over 30' tall.
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Pg 15
The monstrosity was vaguely skeletal in shape, with unnaturally long limbs that sprouted from granite shoulders. The eyes were deep red spots on the arrowhead face, as if created by a fire burning deep within the stone.
Pg 850
Massive creatures, easily five or six times the seize of a person, their skin dull and grey like granite. They had long limbs and skeletal bodies, the forelegs-or were they arms?-set into wide shoulders. The faces were lean, narrow. Arrowlike.
I guess 5-6 man-sizes didn't seem like enough to warrant a 6-foot-long hand (also stated on page 15). But I suppose that's over 30' tall.
You're assuming that the creatures have the same physical proportions as the human body. If they're proportioned as having hands twice as long as an equivalent-sized human but are also five or six times the size of a person, there's no problem.
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I am curious as to how they reproduce. They must somehow, since they populate half the planet. But there's been no mention of parshbabies, as far as I can remember. Even if there isn't some strange voidbringer cylce it's possible that the dead parshmen are resuurected somehow, right? Maybe stormlight revives them, which is why they're just left in the wild.
I don't think so. When Bridge 4 is down searching the chasms, they find all kinds of Parshendi bodies, and at one point I believe Kaladin makes a comment about how the Parshendi bodies were heavy enough that a highstorm wouldn't move them (since that would be the best way for the bodies to be infused with Stormlight), so he would have noticed the distinct lack of bodies after a highstorm.
Also, remember at one point, Dalinar comments that he thinks he found a female Parshendi (he also put forth that maybe the pairs of fighters were husband and wife). That's a possible explanation of the reproduction.
Random thought. You know how Parshmen/Parshendi are very particular about not disturbing the bodies of their fallen comrades? How Parshendi will go to great lengths in battle in order to avoid doing so? And then there was Shen's reaction to Kaladin when he moved a Parshendi corpse, and Sigzil explaining that all Parshmen were like that - a seemingly emotionless bunch, except that they become irate when someone tampers with their dead.
Hubay mentioned resurrection, that perhaps Parshendi are revived by Stormlight. This was something I suspected as well, when I was reading through the book. But maybe there are certain conditions that must be met - such as, a Parshmen/Parshendi must not be disturbed except by their own kin, else the revival is nullified. Perhaps their bodies must be handled in a very specific way. And maybe it's not a resurrection that occurs, but an evolving of sorts - Parshmen become Parshendi which grow into to something else, maybe Chasmfiends.
This is all just idle speculation, of course. But it's interesting to ponder...
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i dont think so because when they first discovered the parshendi and shoed them the parshmen, the parshendi seemed to have never seen anything like them, so i doubt there is a metamorphisis from parshmen to parshendi, more likely is that when they invade at the desolation odium gives the parshendi a sort of lobotomy making them almost useless unless something is giveing them direct orders, and the humans took advantage of that
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i have a theory, but I'm not sure how well it works.
basically, what if the Parshmen have more than one race? for example, what if the Regular Parshmen, are the Farmers/Workers? and the Parshendi are the Guards/Fighters? like a Swarm of bees, they have Different Castes/Sub-species of parshmen for Different Tasks? perhaps this is why we haven't seen any surgebinders, they haven't needed them in their War Against the Alethi. mostly i get this idea from the Quote on page499. "They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances...." to me, this implied a changeable enemy, that would adapt to what ever foe it faced. since it seems the parshmen have a type of hivemind, but still retain individual choice, perhaps this how the Warriors avoided all contact with humans... or perhaps they were Guarding something, in the Center of the Shattered Plains, perhaps a city? this could have been why they killed Galiver, because they feared that he was close to sending an Expedition to this Forbidden place, and being warriors, killing is the first option? just a thought...
another thought i had, I'm not sure if its disproven, was it mentioned anywhere that the Parshmen ever grew Old? or Died of OldAge? if not, what if they don't die, and this is why we never hear mention of parshmen children, cause they aren't needed? of course theres the "youth" Daliver didn't kill.... hurrrm...
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Yes, Parshmen becoming Parshendi doesn't make much sense, as the Parshendi are confused, even dumbfounded by Parshmen. (Don't have the exact page, but the original Parshendi, upon meeting Parshmen commented "Where is their song?" and were generally very confused.)
However, the Chasmfiends becoming Thunderclasts idea does work. Likely the Chasmfiends go into chrysalis once they are ready to convert into Thunderclasts. They would then grow into the ground, until ready to be summoned out of the ground by Odium. (Note the Pre-prologue where Kalak mentions odd-shaped depressions where "Thunderclasts tore themselves out of the ground") This would also explain why the Parshendi cut open every pupating chasmfiend they can find, and tear out the gemhearts. The Parshendi don't want the chasmfiends to become Thunderclasts! Going by this theory, another explanation for the Parshendi's sudden appearance can be found. The Chasmfiends were moved to the Shattering plains in order to pupate. The Parshendi followed in order to keep them from becoming thunderclasts.
I do like the lobotomized Parshmen theory, that Parshendi are overcome by Odium, or perhaps voidbinders, are separated from "their song" and are forced to obey orders. When the humans found out about this, they took advantage.
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i have a theory, but I'm not sure how well it works.
basically, what if the Parshmen have more than one race? for example, what if the Regular Parshmen, are the Farmers/Workers? and the Parshendi are the Guards/Fighters? like a Swarm of bees, they have Different Castes/Sub-species of parshmen for Different Tasks? perhaps this is why we haven't seen any surgebinders, they haven't needed them in their War Against the Alethi. mostly i get this idea from the Quote on page499. "They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances...." to me, this implied a changeable enemy, that would adapt to what ever foe it faced. since it seems the parshmen have a type of hivemind, but still retain individual choice, perhaps this how the Warriors avoided all contact with humans... or perhaps they were Guarding something, in the Center of the Shattered Plains, perhaps a city? this could have been why they killed Galiver, because they feared that he was close to sending an Expedition to this Forbidden place, and being warriors, killing is the first option? just a thought...
We know they do adapt battlefield tactics depending on the situation. When Kaladin jumped the chasm and drew Stormlight from all the beard gems, he notes that after that he rarely saw a Parshendi with gems in its beard and he assumed it was because they changed their tactics once they saw what he was doing.
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It might just be that Odium is more detached than we think.
We know that Ati (Ruin) was changed from a caring and compassionate person into an incredibly destructive force. Even if Odium is Rayse, it's possible that his personality changed, too.
Where did we learn this? ???
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It might just be that Odium is more detached than we think.
We know that Ati (Ruin) was changed from a caring and compassionate person into an incredibly destructive force. Even if Odium is Rayse, it's possible that his personality changed, too.
Where did we learn this? ???
The letter (which we assume to be from Hoid) that makes up part 2's epigraphs.
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7820.msg171789#msg171789
separated out here
I'm not completely opposed to the chasmfiends becoming thunderclasts theory after pupating, but I really think at least one should have slipped by the Parshendi and Altehi by now, and we should have been able to see the result. Where do all these chasmfiends come from anyway? Seems like the chrysalis could just be a way for them to divide up into multiple new baby ones too. All Dalinar had to say on the topic was:
Most gemhearts were harvested quite differently than the one had been today. Sometime during the strange life cycle of the chasmfiends, they sought the western side of the Plains, where the plateaus were wider. They climbed up onto the tops and made a rocky chrysalis, waiting for the coming of a highstorm.
Erunion's theory of them sinking into the ground to await the Desolation works fairly well, but we still don't know how the chasmfiends are born or where they come from. I also like guy's theory on Parshmen being lobotomized by Odium.
Maybe the thunderclasts act as a signal tower for Odium's own song to be transmitted to Parshmen and make them killers? We have read in some of the epigraphs that the voidbringers sing/chant as well.
Still don't understand why they killed Gavilar, but I don't think Parshendi are the villians here.
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First a few questions/ problems:
how is it that the battles just happen to take place where the Chasmfiends planted themselves? Especially considering that the Desolations were usually attacking the humans, and the Chasmfiends could hardly get that close without the humans noticing and killing them. It is possible that the last desolation was an attack initiated by the humans, and usually the Chasmfiends walk to the fighting, but otherwise this doesn't seem to quite add up. Also, is it really that much of an upgrade? All that time vulnerable, when you could be killed, in exchange for stone skin and faster movement doesn't seem too amazing since the Chasmfiends are pretty BA already. Also, what about all the other Greatshells? Do they all become Thunderclasts, do only Chasmfiends pupate? The theory starts to look a little iffy to me, except for "what else could the Chasmfiends be changing into?" However, if the Thunderclasts were going to battle, shouldn't their little bros be marching with them? Like, anyone who's already turned into a thunderclast behind goes sure, but the Chasmfiends are pretty dangerous themselves. Leaving them behind seems like a waste, especially when they have like thousands of years to replenish in between desolations. Therefore, there is no reason we must have already seen the result of a chasmfiend pupation, as we did not see any chasmfiends in the prelude either.
Then a couple crazy theories:
Sorry, no answer for that, but I do have a couple theories on the Thunderclasts: perhaps the Parshmen/Parshendi dead bodies are actually what drops the seed for the Thunderclasts. This would be interesting as each desolation would leave dead bodies that would drop thunderclast stuff (idk what it would be, but I'm sure Brandon could come up with something) that would mature into a thunderclast over like a thousand years. Then when they come back for the next desolation, all the thunderclasts that were planted rise up which helps explain why the parshmen are so anal about their dead bodies (more time in the same place = more chance of becoming thunderclasts, and the reaction to Kaladin was just an offshoot of dead body protection) and would support why the Desolations always caught the humans by surprise, because the thunderclasts were rising out from the very ground beneath them.
Or, what if the thunderclasts fly into the battle? OK, not like they can fly, but Odium or surgebinding or something launches them to wherever the battle is. Then they hit the ground so hard they're buried into it and thus have to rip themselves free of it. This would also explain Thunder = come from the sky + loud noise when they hit the ground. Do you think the crater/ blast radius would ruin this theory?
And then the theory that I mean as an actually solid theory:
What if Parshmen/Parshendi are the equivalent of Humans, and Voidbringers are the equivalent of Knights Radiant.
Just as windrunners are an order of knights radiant, dustbringers are an order of Voidbringers.
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First a few questions/ problems:
how is it that the battles just happen to take place where the Chasmfiends planted themselves?
Chasmfiends begin to pupate and the scouts from both sides (Alethi and Parshendi) see it, then it's a mad-dash to see who can get there first and get the Gemheart. If the other arrive first there's (usually) a battle.
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First a few questions/ problems:
how is it that the battles just happen to take place where the Chasmfiends planted themselves?
Chasmfiends begin to pupate and the scouts from both sides (Alethi and Parshendi) see it, then it's a mad-dash to see who can get there first and get the Gemheart. If the other arrive first there's (usually) a battle.
You're misinterpreting him. He's saying that if thunderclasts are chasmfiends that have planted themselves into the ground and become indistinguishable from it, how is it that in the aftermath of the battle in the prelude with thunderclasts, there was evidence of them rising up from the battlefield itself. That would imply that at some point before the battle, it was a chasmfiend pupating ground.
As far as the thunderclasts in Dalinar's flashbacks, he didn't note of any signs of them being risen from the battlefield, but he didn't seem to spend that long looking at the destruction either.
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Or, what if the thunderclasts fly into the battle? OK, not like they can fly, but Odium or surgebinding or something launches them to wherever the battle is. Then they hit the ground so hard they're buried into it and thus have to rip themselves free of it. This would also explain Thunder = come from the sky + loud noise when they hit the ground. Do you think the crater/ blast radius would ruin this theory?
I'm not sure what I think about most of that, but if you're trying to come up with a logic behind the name I think you're going in the wrong direction. 'clast' as a suffix generally means "to break" or "destroy." So either this mans thunderclasts create thunder – you can refer to thunder as breaking – or it means they fight it. Obviously not literally but it would be a poetic way of writing them as demons – if stormlight is holy than one who fights the storm is evil.
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Semi-bump as this is a good thread.
How does all of this fit in to the cause of the war itself? I like the idea that the parshmen and chasmfiends are related (there's just way too much similarity in the way their bodies / shells are described) AND that they relate to the "orders" of voidbringers including thunderclasts somehow (after all, just look at the back cover and the ars arcanum which infer that there is a lot more to the voidbringers that meets the eye).
There are many hints in the flashbacks of when G and D first meet the parshendi BUT I haven't been able to tease out a theory that makes sense...
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This all sort of reminds me of my theory as to why they assassinated Gavilar in the first place. It seemed apparent to me (of course I could be wrong) that the Parshendi needed a massive army to camp itself in the shattered plains. -Why- they need that is unknown, maybe its just to kill chasm fiends before they become something worse, or maybe its so there will be an army there to fight off an attack of unknown origin (unknown to anyone not Parshendi).
And since it's exceptionally unlikely that the Alethi would believe the Parshendi when they start describing this horrific threat, the Parshendi knew they would have to do something drastic to get them out there. Like killing their king and then luring them right to where they will eventually need them.
Just my thoughts
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This all sort of reminds me of my theory as to why they assassinated Gavilar in the first place. It seemed apparent to me (of course I could be wrong) that the Parshendi needed a massive army to camp itself in the shattered plains. -Why- they need that is unknown, maybe its just to kill chasm fiends before they become something worse, or maybe its so there will be an army there to fight off an attack of unknown origin (unknown to anyone not Parshendi).
And since it's exceptionally unlikely that the Alethi would believe the Parshendi when they start describing this horrific threat, the Parshendi knew they would have to do something drastic to get them out there. Like killing their king and then luring them right to where they will eventually need them.
Just my thoughts
Just to take this idea one step further, Gavilar was changing before the end. He was becoming aware of things he shouldn't be aware of. If your theory is true, then perhaps the parshendi were telling him things (in private). Things that shook him up bad. Likely, instead of bringing his whole army out to the shattered plains where they would die in a final desolation, his decision based off of what they had to say was something more in line with "consolidate Alethi. Weather the storm to come." Sort of a "lock yourself in the basement instead of helping the other survivors defend the convenience store from the zombies" approach. So the Parshendi took drastic measures to pull them out.
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I'm skeptical about the "parshmen/parshendi become chasmfiends become thunderclasts" theory. If they're out on the shattered plains to grab gemhearts, destroying the chasmfiend's chrysalises, why bother leaving their dead out where they could become chasmfiends in the first place? Maybe it's so they can have eventual access to more gemhearts, but it still seems like a big risk to take.