Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Miyabi on August 31, 2010, 01:28:19 PM
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I want to know why the heck she has a Shardblade!
I'm hopping to work so I don't have long to post my theories, but I want to come home to yours!
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My assumption is that her father had one and she got he when she killed him. Though that does raise the question of how exactly she killed him when he has a shardblade. Hmmm...
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My assumption is that her father had one and she got he when she killed him. Though that does raise the question of how exactly she killed him when he has a shardblade. Hmmm...
I don't think there's much to ponder there. Who would expect their beloved daughter of killing them? Getting him dead within the 10 hearbeats doesn't seem like a big stretch.
The real questions are WHY would she kill him? Was it on purpose or accident? If on purpose, what did he do to deserve it?
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My assumption is that her father had one and she got he when she killed him. Though that does raise the question of how exactly she killed him when he has a shardblade. Hmmm...
I don't think there's much to ponder there. Who would expect their beloved daughter of killing them? Getting him dead within the 10 hearbeats doesn't seem like a big stretch.
The real questions are WHY would she kill him? Was it on purpose or accident? If on purpose, what did he do to deserve it?
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She seems to hate the Shardblade, so I would assume that she didn't kill him for it.
I would think that her father actually knew how to soulcast and was using the Soulcaster as a charade.
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I don't think that the Soulcaster for the father was a charade. I think that the soulcasting power was pretty unique, and it would be strange for both Jasnah and Shallan's father to be bonded to a soulcasting spren.
Speaking of which, the scene where Shallan was sketching the spren, and them following her, was pretty creepy.
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My assumption is that her father had one and she got he when she killed him. Though that does raise the question of how exactly she killed him when he has a shardblade. Hmmm...
I don't think there's much to ponder there. Who would expect their beloved daughter of killing them? Getting him dead within the 10 hearbeats doesn't seem like a big stretch.
The real questions are WHY would she kill him? Was it on purpose or accident? If on purpose, what did he do to deserve it?
She makes it quite clear during the book that he wasn't a very good father, and that while he didn't actively mistreat her the same way he did to her siblings, he did isolate her and restrict her a lot. It's possible that was enough, or that there was some relatively small straw on top of his mistreatment of her siblings that made her decide he needed to die.
I'm not saying that those are her reasons, just to keep an open mind. :)
I don't think that the Soulcaster for the father was a charade. I think that the soulcasting power was pretty unique, and it would be strange for both Jasnah and Shallan's father to be bonded to a soulcasting spren.
Speaking of which, the scene where Shallan was sketching the spren, and them following her, was pretty creepy.
Jasnah implies that she isn't a Radiant or that there's a way to soulcast without being a Radiant during that conversation, so it's also possible Shallan's father was able to soulcast that way, too.
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I find it interesting that she views her Shardblade very akin to how Szeth views his. A burden, a punishment.
It makes me think that they both came into their Shardblades in similar ways.
It's implied that Szeth's is a punishment from his country or religion, maybe as a result or in conjunction with his Windrunner abilities. I wonder if Shallan's was forced upon her in a similar way, as the impression I got from the book was that she killed her father with the Shardblade.
WHY is my biggest question.
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Since Shallan has so much back story untold, I have a feeling that in book 2, there's a good possibility that Shallan will become the primary protaganist, like Kaladin in this book. That way the flashbacks can tell her father's mysterious story and the way she got her shardblade and how the soulcaster got cracked and where her oldest brother, Helaran, (who probably ISN'T dead) disappeared to.
I don't think there's much to ponder there. Who would expect their beloved daughter of killing them? Getting him dead within the 10 hearbeats doesn't seem like a big stretch.
I decided to find the little hints of flashbacks in chapter 7 and 8 to see what we can figure out about the event.
It still felt odd to her that she been the one to take charge after...After the incident...After..
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
I guess if the memories are of after the incident, then she probably got the Shardblade from her father.
Speaking of which, is that a typo in the book? I think that it should be "It still felt odd to her that she HAD been the one..."
And then talking about the soulcaster...
Nobody knew where he'd gotten the fabrial, which she now carried in her safe pouch. It was unusable, damaged on the same disastrous evening that her father had died.
This quote, on the other hand, seems to imply to me that the Shardblade played a part in the damaging of the Soulcaster.
So... basically, I have no real theories yet, however, Brandon probably has hidden a big secret in the events that really transpired that day.
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She also says that her the night was disasterous. This implies that her fathers death was an accident, but it could also mean whatever caused her to do it was the disaster.
We know SHE didn't try to use the soulcaster, otherwise she would know how and realize Jasnah's was a fake right away.
Perhaps her father did something wrong, was out of control, and she killed him to save everyone else? I don't know, jsut my brain fizz/
I'm so happy to finally be done that book and theorizing again.
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Sorry for being a noob, but on which chapter does it say Shallan has a shardblade?
I focused most of my attention on the chapters set on Shattered Plains and skimmed over everything else, since one of the non-spoiler review gave me the impression that Shallan's storyline was basically 10% introduction and 90% exposition. That and I couldn't wait to finish Kaladin's storyline, hence I skipped around 200 pages.
I'm in the process of rereading the book more thoroughly, but can someone save me the trouble and point me to the right chapters. Maybe I misread Shardblade as Soulcaster while I went through her chapters.
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Sorry for being a noob, but on which chapter does it say Shallan has a shardblade?
I focused most of my attention on the chapters set on Shattered Plains and skimmed over everything else, since one of the non-spoiler review gave me the impression that Shallan's storyline was basically 10% introduction and 90% exposition. That and I couldn't wait to finish Kaladin's storyline, hence I skipped around 200 pages.
I'm in the process of rereading the book more thoroughly, but can someone save me the trouble and point me to the right chapters. Maybe I misread Shardblade as Soulcaster while I went through her chapters.
In chapters 7 and 8, there are very short references, and it never uses the word Shardblade distinctly.
The passage zebobes quoted above is one of them. Then, in chapter eight, she mentions having a secret that waited "ten heartbeats away".
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The Shallan chapters were actually my favorites, at least until Kaladin got exciting (I hate reading depression, and he was depressed for quite a while). You should read them, they are great.
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Sorry for being a noob, but on which chapter does it say Shallan has a shardblade?
I focused most of my attention on the chapters set on Shattered Plains and skimmed over everything else, since one of the non-spoiler review gave me the impression that Shallan's storyline was basically 10% introduction and 90% exposition. That and I couldn't wait to finish Kaladin's storyline, hence I skipped around 200 pages.
I'm in the process of rereading the book more thoroughly, but can someone save me the trouble and point me to the right chapters. Maybe I misread Shardblade as Soulcaster while I went through her chapters.
In chapters 7 and 8, there are very short references, and it never uses the word Shardblade distinctly.
The passage zebobes quoted above is one of them. Then, in chapter eight, she mentions having a secret that waited "ten heartbeats away".
Thanks.
I'm smacking myself in the head for missing such obvious clues.
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Shallan's one of my favorite characters, and, yes, you should be smacking yourself for skipping her parts. Whoever wrote that about her plot obviously didn't recognize how awesome she is.
My guess is that her father started beating Nan Balat and she accidentally hurt him trying to stop him.
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Shallan is one of my favorites as well. My favorite though is Szeth-son-son-Valano.
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Thanks.
I'm smacking myself in the head for missing such obvious clues.
Hey, you're not the only one. I finished the book, came on the forums, saw this thread, and had the same reaction.
"Shallan has a shardblade?! When did that happen?"
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The first time she alludes to it. "A secret ten heartbeats away." (paraphrasing) I immediately thought. "HOLY CRAP, SHE HAS A SHARDBLADE!!!" And freaked out, repeating that over and over for about a minute. I'm really glad I was alone in the room at the time. But it was freaking AWESOME. Brandon is an evil genius to just slip something like that in so casually. I was thinking that Shallan was going to be boring and then that happened. It was sweet.
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i am sure she used it to kill her father because the shardblade also cut the soulcaster. Thats why it was cleanly severed. I find a couple possible plot holes in shallans story though. If she has a shardblade (which we assume with evidence she does) than why did she not sell it. The cost would have cleared any debts the family had without question. Also, after she was poisened jasnah fraked out causing shallan to give her the soulcaster. However, because jasnah had always used a fake she would not have freaked and shallen would have not needed to give it to her and she wouldn;t have been exposed.
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i am sure she used it to kill her father because the shardblade also cut the soulcaster. Thats why it was cleanly severed. I find a couple possible plot holes in shallans story though. If she has a shardblade (which we assume with evidence she does) than why did she not sell it. The cost would have cleared any debts the family had without question. Also, after she was poisened jasnah fraked out causing shallan to give her the soulcaster. However, because jasnah had always used a fake she would not have freaked and shallen would have not needed to give it to her and she wouldn;t have been exposed.
There may be unknown to us reasons why she couldn't sell the Shardblade.
Could you explain more on the part I italicized please? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.
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Jasnah can Soulcast without a Soulcaster, but she still needs the Stormlight-infused gems just like the Ardents do, and she didn't have the correct gem (a garnet) handy at the moment. The lack of the gem is why Jasnah was "freaking out", and Shallan revealing the theft only saved her because she happened to have an infused garnet either in the soulcaster or with it in the same pouch.
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I would assume she didn't want to sell the shardblade for fear of attracting attention to herself.
First off, how would you approach someone with an offer like that? She may have been afraid that anyone who could actually buy it would just kill her and take it. Or worried that they would try to figure out how she got it, and learn that she killed her father.
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Shallan didn't know that Jasnah could Soulcast without a fabrial until after the bread poison incident. She thought that Jasnah wouldn't be able to help her because the fabrial was a fake and gave her back the one she took, not knowing that that too had been fake. She didn't figure it out until later.
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As far as Shallan murdering her father goes, why are people speculating that she killed him with the shardblade? There is a chapter where she begins to draw her father dead at a table, with blood coming from a wound. Shardblades don't work like that. However, I do agree that the shardblade is definitely what broke the soulcaster.
Got a quote from the book..
"Shallan froze, realizing for the first time what she'd been drawing. Not another scene from the alleyway, but a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug and swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half-eaten meal.
And a dead man, in fine clothing, lying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him."
Also, after she was poisened jasnah fraked out causing shallan to give her the soulcaster. However, because jasnah had always used a fake she would not have freaked and shallen would have not needed to give it to her and she wouldn;t have been exposed.
Whether or not she needed the soulcaster, Shallan thought she needed it. And Jasnah did say that she needed a garnet to do the soulcasting, which Shallan had in her safepouch...which is also where the soulcaster was. So Shallan would have for sure died if she hadn't opened up her safepouch and revealed its contents to Jasnah.
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you got me. on the garnet. It was 4:00 in the morning after finishing the book so i admit defeat.
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DID Jasnah actually need tha garnet? Keep in mind ,there were others around. Perhaps it was merely cover.
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no i believe blood can only be soulcast with a garnet. Thats how shallen turned the goblet to blood upon returning to the shadesmere. Notice that Shallen and Kaladin and i am assuming jasnah have powers that they are not born with but rather come from a relationship with spren. It's not inborn and likely doesn't increase in liklihood through bloodlines. I doubt her father had a spren and rather used the caster as it was intended.
In answer to miabi's comment (too far back to quote appearently) i doubt he was using it as a cover because he was dealing with the ghost group and they supplied the fabrial. He wouldn't have needed a supplier or owed debts if he was bonded to a spren.
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It says in the text though that he used the fabrial. Don't have my book with me atm so I can't quote.
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I thought I'd add one little tidbit I found. Unfortunately I don't have the book with me, and can't go look it up for reasons to complicated to go into here, but I found a quote that establishes with near-certainty that Shallan got the Shardblade from her father.
Basically, immediately before Shallan soulcasts for the first time, while being chased, she summons her Shardblade. The text itself says something along the lines of "She had a defense that was ten heartbeats away. No, not that! She had promised not to use it, the fruit of her most heinous act. But she began the summoning anyway." Then she goes into Shadesmar, and the scene becomes even more bizarre. Reading between the lines, it's about certain she got her Shardblade from her father after killing him.
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I thought I'd add one little tidbit I found. Unfortunately I don't have the book with me, and can't go look it up for reasons to complicated to go into here, but I found a quote that establishes with near-certainty that Shallan got the Shardblade from her father.
Basically, immediately before Shallan soulcasts for the first time, while being chased, she summons her Shardblade. The text itself says something along the lines of "She had a defense that was ten heartbeats away. No, not that! She had promised not to use it, the fruit of her most heinous act. But she began the summoning anyway." Then she goes into Shadesmar, and the scene becomes even more bizarre. Reading between the lines, it's about certain she got her Shardblade from her father after killing him.
I didn't get that impression when i read it but that's maybe a possibillity. It would be good to get page numbers and a second person backing it up.
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Richard fife's review on tor.com says that its implied she was a victim of sexual abuse. Did any of you see a hint of that?
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I thought I'd add one little tidbit I found. Unfortunately I don't have the book with me, and can't go look it up for reasons to complicated to go into here, but I found a quote that establishes with near-certainty that Shallan got the Shardblade from her father.
Basically, immediately before Shallan soulcasts for the first time, while being chased, she summons her Shardblade. The text itself says something along the lines of "She had a defense that was ten heartbeats away. No, not that! She had promised not to use it, the fruit of her most heinous act. But she began the summoning anyway." Then she goes into Shadesmar, and the scene becomes even more bizarre. Reading between the lines, it's about certain she got her Shardblade from her father after killing him.
I didn't get that impression when i read it but that's maybe a possibillity. It would be good to get page numbers and a second person backing it up.
you got pretty close on that quote, here is the quote from my kindle version, page 851. Don't know if the page numbers are the same for the hardback but it is in chapter 45
Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn’t know how to use it. She was helpless.
Except…
Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself.
She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act.
I also found this on page 158 in chapter 7 that might link to the event she got her blade from
It still felt odd to her that she been the one to take charge after…After the incident…After…
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
No, Shallan thought, her back to the stone wall, clutching her satchel. No. Don’t think of the past.
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Thanks Chosen! That's the one I was thinking of.
It sure sounds to me like she got the Shardblade in direct connection with her father's death. We don't have the details yet, but I think we can safely link the two events. The most likely interpretation is that her father had the blade and that she got it after he died.
Richard fife's review on tor.com says that its implied she was a victim of sexual abuse. Did any of you see a hint of that?
This is a guess. Plausible, but far from proven. There are many other kinds of abuse that could have given Shallan her scars.
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I want to know why the heck she has a Shardblade!
I'm hopping to work so I don't have long to post my theories, but I want to come home to yours!
I never read that she had a shardblade. Where did you see that?
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I want to know why the heck she has a Shardblade!
I'm hopping to work so I don't have long to post my theories, but I want to come home to yours!
I never read that she had a shardblade. Where did you see that?
Check my posts on the first page of this thread.
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She actually had a shardblade, I thought is was fairly clear.
On the other hand: scars?
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She actually had a shardblade, I thought is was fairly clear.
It's easy to miss. It's three sentence buried in the middle of chapters when other stuff is going on, and it doesn't become truly relevant at any point.
Yet.
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She actually had a shardblade, I thought is was fairly clear.
On the other hand: scars?
I was speaking metaphorically. Emotional scars. She's got plenty, as do her brothers.
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It was pretty clear from early on that she had a shardblade.
Thanks to the other posters, particularly Chosen, in this thread finding and inserting most of the important quotes.
I thought she probably killed her father with the shardblade, just because there was blood pooling around him doesn't mean a whole lot. Any subsequent blows after the initial death would have cut flesh, and she might have been flailing at him with it.
But then Chosen brought out this quote: Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. This it most easily interpreted as her taking the blade off her father's corpse. But then how did the Soulcaster get cut in half?
The Soulcaster looked identical to the one she and her brothers had found in the inside pocket of her father’s coat. -Page 95
Shallan fished in the safepouch inside her sleeve, bringing out her father’s broken Soulcaster. It had been sheared in two places: across one of the chains and through the setting that held one of the stones. She inspected it in the light, looking—not for the first time—for signs of that damage. The link in the chain had been replaced perfectly and the setting reforged equally well. Even knowing exactly where the cuts had been, she couldn’t find any flaw. - Page 575
I'm assuming that he was hiding it on himself, and the shardblade cut through it.
So how did this all go down? Nan Balat did something that upset their father during dinner. He started beating him viciously enough to break his leg horribly. He must have been about to kill Nan Balat when Shallan intervened and killed him instead. Did he summon the shardblade, then put it to the side, and then she picked it up and slashed him with it?
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Well, if she killed him before the Blade was summoned, would it automatically summon itself? I'm under the assumption that Shardblades don't disappear if you kill their bearer while they're not summoned, but I can't remember if we've seen a Shardbearer killed while his Blade was unsummoned.
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Yes, kill a shardbearer who's blade is unsummoned and it will materialise out of the air next to their corpse.
The issue is people think that her father's soulcaster was cut with the shardblade, can't recall if there's serious evidence for this or not.
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Well, if she killed him before the Blade was summoned, would it automatically summon itself? I'm under the assumption that Shardblades don't disappear if you kill their bearer while they're not summoned, but I can't remember if we've seen a Shardbearer killed while his Blade was unsummoned.
Gavilar's blade was unsummoned when he died, and appeared next to him shortly after. So, yes, she could have gotten the blade after her father died even if he hadn't summoned it.
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Well, Shalan in my opinion is a future Knights Radiant, like Kaladin and probably Dalinar.
1. Shalin already has a Shardblade. (explained numerous times in this thread)
2. She can soulcast. (p644 hardcover)
3. She is associated with a specific spren, that is apparently associated with soulcasting. (p978,979 hardcover)
4. She can exchange truth with the "spren" in order to go to shadesmar. (969 hardcover)
5. She can tap into the stormlight of a jewel, as she did to escape shadesmar the first time she went there. (p644 hardcover) Not 100% positive on this one but seems quite likely
She is a Knights Radiant of the 6th Order.
Number 6 - Shash
Gemstone - Garnet
Essence - Blood
Body Focus - The Blood
Soulcasting Properties - Blood, all non oil liquids
Primary, Secondary Divine Attributes - creative/honest
What do you think?
Ashaman
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Richard fife's review on tor.com says that its implied she was a victim of sexual abuse. Did any of you see a hint of that?
I did not. It's just as likely he jumped to conclusions. There was verbal abuse, and physical abuse of her brothers, but that doesn't suggest sexual abuse. Shallan's feelings for the ardent are awfully innocent for someone who's been sexually abused.
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I think that's a genius deduction. It would make a lot of sense, especially considering she unknowingly changed it to blood, though that could have just been coincidence.
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I think that's a genius deduction. It would make a lot of sense, especially considering she unknowingly changed it to blood, though that could have just been coincidence.
Sorry, bit confused here. What deduction are you referring to?
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The one Ashaman made about her belonging to the Knights Radiant 6th Order.
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I can't help but think that a number of characters will end up as Knights Radiant equivalents, Jasnah as well.
Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”
“What?”
“I will explain as I train you,” Jasnah said, handing back the sheet. “You will need a greater foundation before you can grasp it. Suffice it to say that each Radiant’s abilities were tied to the spren.”
So, as far as orders with inherent Soulcasting abilities: 6th order and which ever one Jasnah would go in, I'm liking 2nd order for Jasnah.
2 Nan; Smokestone (gem); vapor (essence); exhalation (body focus); opaque gas, fog, smoke (soulcasting properties); Learned/Giving (primary/2nd divine attributes)
As far as the argument for shardblade being used in cutting the Soulcaster apart, it's notable that it was "sheared" through, and not merely broken, as it would be by the force of ordinary weapon.
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We know she killed her father, and we know she has a Shardblade, but that doesn't mean that her father had the Blade.
Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act.
Yes, she got it after killing someone, but it doesn't explicitly say (or hint at, really) her father. I think more things happened that night than we know, as we only get a few lines and hints throughout the book.
Edit:
Also, I seemed to have missed how we know that the drawing Shallan did of the dead guy was her father. Could someone explain to me or get me a quote from the book, please?
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It does become a bit simpler if we consider that possibility of multiple people dying that night, one killed through ordinary means who had a shardblade, and the father killed by the shardblade at Shallan's hands. If the shardblade wasn't originally in the ownership of their family and it came from the outside, that might be why they can't just sell it to pay off their family debts without attracting way too much of the wrong kind of attention. Shallan herself doesn't need to have killed multiple people though, if her father was about to claim the shardblade and then she killed her father with it, the "most horrific act" quote still works.
Word put the quote of the drawing on page 2:
Shallan froze, realizing for the first time what she’d been drawing. Not another scene from the alleyway, but a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug and swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half-eaten meal.
And a dead man in fine clothing, lying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him. -ch39, pg 641
As you've pointed out, it never states explicitly that this was her father. We've just been assuming that.
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Perhaps her "missing" brother had a soulblade?
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Here's the problem I have with the "most horrific act" quote: Her reaction to someone else killing people (Jasnah Soulcasting the thugs) was a huge internal conflict. Now if she, herself, had done any killing (even excluding her father) I still think she would consider that an extremely horrific act on her part.
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The Soulcaster looked identical to the one she and her brothers had found in the inside pocket of her father’s coat. -Page 95
Looking at this quote again, it sounds a lot like her brothers and she were looting the corpse of her father. I'm fairly certain that Nan Balat either would've wanted the Shardblade for his own or would've wanted to sell it. So, it's my belief that Shallan's brothers don't know she has the blade.
Seriously, I have more questions about the murder of Shallan's father than any other incident mentioned in the book.
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The Soulcaster looked identical to the one she and her brothers had found in the inside pocket of her father’s coat. -Page 95
Looking at this quote again, it sounds a lot like her brothers and she were looting the corpse of her father. I'm fairly certain that Nan Balat either would've wanted the Shardblade for his own or would've wanted to sell it. So, it's my belief that Shallan's brothers don't know she has the blade.
Seriously, I have more questions about the murder of Shallan's father than any other incident mentioned in the book.
We just don't know enough.
I still consider "Shallan kills father, blade falls from air, Shallan claims blade" as by far the most likely scenario. Most of the comments here have been "Don't know" and "Can't rule out" sorts, not actual logical reasons, and most involve extra actors that we have no evidence for whatsoever. Finding the Soulcaster would be something that could happen at a later time, or even day, depending on when they decide to search the body. A Shardblade, on the other hand, falls out of the air in front of you. The span between the bearer's death and the blade being reclaimed is probably usually quite small because of this, and given any scenario whatsoever with Shallan, I cannot see why this would be an exception.
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Perhaps they took the Soulcaster from him while he was still alive. In a rage, he summoned the Shardblade and tried to get it back, accidently cutting the Soulcaster in the process. Shallan, fearing for her brother's life, kills her father. Really, I'm just trying to come up with scenarios that have Shallan ending up with the Shardblade and with the Soulcaster being cut by it.
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Perhaps her "missing" brother had a soulblade?
The man who had a shardplate and shardblade that Kaladin killed was Veden, the same as Shallan, and that happened a nearly year ago, Nan Helaran vanish "over a year ago" and their father had proclaimed him dead...
I'm pretty sure Helaran wasn't there that night, but he could have come back that night, Nan Balat clearly believes he is dead, but Shallan doesn't mention it beyond her father's comment.
Right now I think Shallan killed her father with shardblade slash across the chest that cut through the soulcaster. Which still doesn't tell us where the shardblade came from, why they can't sell it to pay off their debts, or whether that body that was she was drawing that was bleeding was their father or someone else(it would take a 2nd blow after death to draw blood with a shardblade), why Nan Balat had a horribly broken leg and was otherwise bruised, or why she killed her father. Besides her father generally being a jerk.
Yeah, we haven't gotten a lot to work with so far.
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it would take a 2nd blow after death to draw blood with a shardblade
That's perfect. If she was using it for the first time, she wouldn't be accustomed to it's Golden Gun effect, so she'd probably have swung multiple times out of pure ignorance/hysteria. Now the only question would be how she got it. Maybe her father was beating up on Nan Balat and willed it to stay in plain sight to frighten the boy. So far, he sounds like the arrogant type who would do that.
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Just starting my first re-read, and I've noticed another quote about the shardblade and her Father's death on page 131:
"As always thinking of her father made her feel ill, and the pain started to constrict her chest. She raised her freehand to her head, suddenly overwhelmed by the weight of House Davar's situation, her part in it, and the secret she now carried, hidden ten heartbeats away."
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Perhaps her "missing" brother had a soulblade?
The man who had a shardplate and shardblade that Kaladin killed was Veden, the same as Shallan, and that happened a nearly year ago, Nan Helaran vanish "over a year ago" and their father had proclaimed him dead...
On page 701 Amaram speaking of the shardbearer being in that enemy force says "the ghost bloods grow more bold", the ghostbloods is the group that sent Kabsal to kill Jasnah, and that Shallan thinks her father was involved in, due to the symbol worn by the men who wanted the soulcaster back.
So, Cheese Ninja, you may have just spotted a good link. It could well be that Kaladin killed Shallan's brother.
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Also, Nan Helaran was implied to be more aware/closer to her father's plans than the rest of the siblings.
The full quote I referenced that immediately preceded the one you just gave:
There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they’d found in his study. What did they mean? He’d rarely spoken of his plans to his children. Even her father’s advisors knew very little. Helaran—her eldest brother—had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.
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I wonder if maybe Shallan doesn't know what her Shardblade is and how valuable it is. She never refers to it as a Shardblade. She has no background in military or fighting matters and might not know enough about Shardblades to recognize it as one - especially if her father having a Blade was a secret.
Maybe the events happened something like: Shallan's father dies, his blade materializes, Shallan grabs it, but later lets go of it (perhaps in horror), and it disappears, as Shardblades do. If no one witnessed these events, perhaps no one else saw the sword at all. Or perhaps the only people who saw it also failed to recognize what it was, and may have thought it was gone for good when it disappeared.
Shallan's brothers never say anything indicating they know she is the one who killed their father. Maybe the two were alone when it happened? Or just Nan Balat was there, but he was too badly injured to see what happened? In the viewpoint we have from Nan Balat, he thinks of Shallan as "Shy, quiet, delicate"; he doesn't seem to regard her the way you would expect if he knew she had killed someone.
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I wonder if maybe Shallan doesn't know what her Shardblade is and how valuable it is. She never refers to it as a Shardblade. She has no background in military or fighting matters and might not know enough about Shardblades to recognize it as one - especially if her father having a Blade was a secret.
Maybe the events happened something like: Shallan's father dies, his blade materializes, Shallan grabs it, but later lets go of it (perhaps in horror), and it disappears, as Shardblades do. If no one witnessed these events, perhaps no one else saw the sword at all. Or perhaps the only people who saw it also failed to recognize what it was, and may have thought it was gone for good when it disappeared.
Shallan's brothers never say anything indicating they know she is the one who killed their father. Maybe the two were alone when it happened? Or just Nan Balat was there, but he was too badly injured to see what happened? In the viewpoint we have from Nan Balat, he thinks of Shallan as "Shy, quiet, delicate"; he doesn't seem to regard her the way you would expect if he knew she had killed someone.
I like and agree with the second and third points, but I can't see Shallan as not knowing what a Shardblade is. Shardblades and plate are an integral part of Vorin culture and mythos. Everyone, even the lowest of darkeyes knows what a shardblade is once they've seen it. Take for example the boy Cenn, a Choss-herder who joined the army. Even though he at first thinks a well-armoured lighteyes is a shardbearer, when he sees the shardbearer galloping towards him, he instantly recognizes the truth. (I don't want to misquote, so read the end of chapter 1 for exacts). No, I can't see Shallan not knowing what her Shardblade was, especially if she knows how to summon it, as is evidenced by the "Only ten heartbeats away" quote, and by her preparing to summon it when she is cornered in her room by the spren.
The grabbed then dropped theory is exactly how I picture it, Shallan kills someone (likely her father) and then sees the shardblade materialize. Shocked, she hesitantly picks it up, stares at it for a moment than leaps away revolted, dropping the blade.
It disappears, and Shallan is now a shardbearer.
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If Shallan's brother were the shardbearer that Kaladin had killed and Shallan received her father's shardblade by murdering him, how had their house grown into such financial despair?
Shardblades are exceedingly rare, and two in the same house seems relatively unlikely - Dalinar and Adolin seem very much the exception, more than the rule. If a house had two shardblades, they would have a massive advantage in inter-house conflicts and their financial situation would never have been so bad.
It seems unlikely that their house ever possessed two of the weapons.
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Jnai: if this mysterious group, the "ghostbloods" had gifted them both blades, and placed all sorts of requirments on them?
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From reading the passages concerning Shallan, I am certain that she gained the Shardblade after killing her father. At one passage she refers to the shardblade as the fruit of her sins. And considering that the most drastic sin she probably committed was killing her father, I would safely assume that she gained the shardblade after killing her father.
To support this, Vorin Law says that you can only gain a shardblade by killing a shardbearer. I assume that the only person Shallan has killed is her father, and thus earned the shadeblade that her father had.
Why they didn't sell the shardblade? This one is trickier. Considering the vorin law regarding shardblades, you can't just sell a shardblade. Of course, no one always gains a shardblade by killing a shardbearer (Brightlord Amaram is a good example, but then he didn't leave anyone alive to say otherwise.) Maybe they thought that if they sold the shardblade, the person they sold it to would kill them to stop anyone else finding out that he bought it, not earned it.
My other theory concerns the fact that Shallan's father is very sneaky. No one knew he had a soulcaster, as it came from (i presume) illegal sources. Maybe he also came by the shardblade the same way, and didn't tell anyone about it, so not to give his enemies a reason to move against him. If so, this is a good reason for Shallan to also keep the blade.
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To support this, Vorin Law says that you can only gain a shardblade by killing a shardbearer.
Or by someone else giving it to you.
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To support this, Vorin Law says that you can only gain a shardblade by killing a shardbearer.
Or by someone else giving it to you.
True that, but normally, the person who gives it to you already has a shardblade and doesn't need another one. That is why when Kaladin gave his blade to Amaram, he had Kaladin's squad killed and Kaladin branded a traitor, because no one would believe that someone without a shardblade would give it up.
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To support this, Vorin Law says that you can only gain a shardblade by killing a shardbearer.
Or by someone else giving it to you.
True that, but normally, the person who gives it to you already has a shardblade and doesn't need another one. That is why when Kaladin gave his blade to Amaram, he had Kaladin's squad killed and Kaladin branded a traitor, because no one would believe that someone without a shardblade would give it up.
Not entirely true. Dalinar mentions that people pass on Shardblades sometimes when they get old.
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Jnai: if this mysterious group, the "ghostbloods" had gifted them both blades, and placed all sorts of requirments on them?
This is what I'm going to be going with for Nan Helaran until we get proof for or against next book.
SnagglezMaw pointed out that there may have been multiple people killed that night, and that the person she drew who was bleeding might not have been her father. It's possible that the father killed someone who did have a shardblade in order to have another potential source of financial support. There are so few shardblades and plates known in society that selling one without a previous history would raise some suspicions. In Dalinar's vision of the Knights Radiant on the day of the Recreance.
There looked to be a good two hundred Shardbearers out there. Alethkar owned some twenty Blades, Jah Keved a similar number. If one added up all the rest in the world, there might be enough total to equal the two powerful Vorin kingdoms. That meant, so far as he knew, there were less than hundred Blades in all of the world. And here he saw two hundred Shardbearers gathered in one army. It was mind-numbing.
I'll guess those were the Stonewards, next, 100 Windrunners drop out of the air. And we can't be sure that these 300 were the only ones who survived to set aside their plate and blade.
So, there are about 80 known blades in modern Roshar, and I'll guess a similar number of plate, that doesn't seem like too big an assumption. If the ghost bloods or some other organization(s) have secreted away the large remainder, it explains both how Nan Helaran could have ended up with a pair and still been unidentifiable to Amaram and his men, and if a ghost blood was the source of Shallan's shardblade, perhaps meeting her father without the knowledge of the rest of the organization, that would explain why they can't simply sell it. (If they supplied her father with one, I would think they'd expect it returned to them along with their soulcaster.)
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i liked the Shalan texts tho I found it a bit odd at the end where she somewhat turns in to super woman from a girl and knows all of
Jasnah's secrets. i do think she will be a good story line in future books.
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I wonder if maybe Shallan doesn't know what her Shardblade is and how valuable it is. She never refers to it as a Shardblade. She has no background in military or fighting matters and might not know enough about Shardblades to recognize it as one - especially if her father having a Blade was a secret.
Maybe the events happened something like: Shallan's father dies, his blade materializes, Shallan grabs it, but later lets go of it (perhaps in horror), and it disappears, as Shardblades do. If no one witnessed these events, perhaps no one else saw the sword at all. Or perhaps the only people who saw it also failed to recognize what it was, and may have thought it was gone for good when it disappeared.
Shallan's brothers never say anything indicating they know she is the one who killed their father. Maybe the two were alone when it happened? Or just Nan Balat was there, but he was too badly injured to see what happened? In the viewpoint we have from Nan Balat, he thinks of Shallan as "Shy, quiet, delicate"; he doesn't seem to regard her the way you would expect if he knew she had killed someone.
Brandon has said previously that picking up a Shardblade confers you with the knowledge of how to use it. This is how she knows that it takes ten heartbeats to summon the blade- which perhaps is something Shardbearers keep to themselves. I don't recall it being mentioned, but I haven't done a close read of the book yet.
I do like the possibility that she doesn't know much about her blade, given that only the men seem to talk about Shardblades and Shardplate, but for now I think it's purely a guess. :)
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i am sure she used it to kill her father because the shardblade also cut the soulcaster. Thats why it was cleanly severed. I find a couple possible plot holes in shallans story though. If she has a shardblade (which we assume with evidence she does) than why did she not sell it. The cost would have cleared any debts the family had without question. Also, after she was poisened jasnah fraked out causing shallan to give her the soulcaster. However, because jasnah had always used a fake she would not have freaked and shallen would have not needed to give it to her and she wouldn;t have been exposed.
Why even sell it. Just show up in Jah Kaved or the Shattered Plains and show off the blade and announce she looking for a husband. Highprinces and their heirs would be knocking each other over to court her.
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Why even sell it. Just show up in Jah Kaved or the Shattered Plains and show off the blade and announce she looking for a husband. Highprinces and their heirs would be knocking each other over to court her.
lol I can see it right now. Shallan turning up to the Shattered Planes, trying to be courted by Highprince Sadeas. But for some reason, it just doesn't feel write. I feel that despite the book saying Shallan's 'secret' reason for leaving home was to steal the soulcaster, I feel that for Shallan, that was only an excuse. She didn't so much want to leave to help her family (though obviously this is very important) but she wanted to leave to feel adventure, to learn from books outside her home. Going to the Shattered Planes wouldn't have led to that I think, so she wasn't motivated to think up that idea.
I know this goes against what it says in the book, but thats the way I feel the character is more suited to. She probably doesn't even realise this herself.
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Taking a little step back for a bit, while Shallan is a major viewpoint character, why do we get lots of tasty hints but few concrete facts about the event...? I think this is likely to be mostly because Shallan herself is only starting to be prepared to fully confront what happened by the end of the book. There is another possibility though: it may be we need a bit more world-building before we (the readers) can fully understand what happened. Of course, it could be a mix of both.
I can think of lots and lots of questions, and some excellent ones have already been raised. For example, how did Shallan's father get (at least) two super rare and expensive items (the shardblade and the soulcaster). Did they belong to the family historically? Did he set up some grand bargain with the Ghostbloods? Was he deeply part of the Ghostbloods and doing this as part of their schemes, or was is more for his own personal gain? Why were the Ghostbloods asking after the soulcaster but not the shardblade? Was there a "hidden" reason why Shallan's father seemed particularly over-protective of her, or was it a combination of culture and his personality? Why did Shallan of all people end up with the sword - if it just appeared by her father's dead body, why did she claim it and not one of her brothers (culturally, she's shouldn't be going near such things and she's doesn't come across as a tomboy)? Could it be that he actually gave the sword to her specifically? Shallan seems quite trusting of her brothers, but do they know she has that sword? How accurate is Shallan's perspective of events? What were the events leading up to her father's death - some kind of internal dispute (no hints that outsiders we involved on the day in question at least)? Was it something sudden and completely surprising or was it a "last straw" kind of event? It seems like it occurred at a family dinner almost, so why would Shallan (seemingly) play the biggest role and not one of her other brothers? Why did the soulcaster get damaged - was it "collateral damage" or did it play some part of the events?
So, why not sell the sword? It could obviously get them a lot of money very quickly. But there's a lot of dangers I can see - there's no way they could sell it to someone local since they seem to have only enemies around them. There's little chance they could sell the blade to someone local without giving away the fact that her father is dead - after all, if the family needed money, the family head would be making the sale. Basically, selling it to anyone local would be very likely to backfire horribly. In a way, it's almost too valuable to be able to sell safely, unless you really know what you're doing. It would be almost impossible for them to sell it publicly, which means doing a more "black market" type sale, which is risky for both sides. Would a bunch of "children" be able to do that with some foreign power...? I also wonder, do Shallan's brothers even know she has it? If they do, wouldn't they want it? It may be that Shallan got it without anyone else knowing and due to her guilt she hasn't been able to confess it yet.
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I think that a lot of people are missing something important here. (Kari-no-sugata is the exception.)
Shallan's murder of her father (however it happened) shocked her deeply. It was a deep source of guilt for her, and was made much worse by the fact that it lead almost immediately into the crisis her family faced afterward. Because of this, she avoided thinking about it and almost never referred to the event. However, it informs everything she does in the book.
For one thing, I expect it was a huge part of why she wanted to leave home. Her plan with the soulcaster is reckless, yes. But anything is better than staying where *it* happened. This is also probably part of why she wanted to stay away at the end, despite her claimed loyalty to her family.
Another example, this one extremely important, is this: When Jasnyn kills those four footpads, it catalyzes Shallan's actual theft. I feel this is because Shallan feels so deeply that murder is wrong---and her own murder actually makes her hate it more. Seeing it happen, given her mixed-up feeling toward her own father, who may well have deserved to die, makes her reckless and she goes through with the theft. Thus the murder is sitting in the background behind a huge turning-point in Shallan's character arc. And we don't even see it until after the fact. This conclusion is supported even more by Shallan's study of philosophy---she concludes that Jasnah's act in killing the men was wrong. How does that then relate to her own actions? What does this tell about her?
With this insight, I feel that the reason she never brings up the Shardblade is because it is so intimately tied up with the guilt that she can't think straight about it. She only uses it in extreme situations. In my mind, despite it's inherent value, she just can't face what it means. Her not using it to help her family is an emotional response, not a logical one. And it's an important part of her character.
This is also why I feel that the dead man she draws must be her father. She ignores the situation with her father so studiously, I would be stunned if that wasn't what she was drawing. Her underplayed response to it actually makes me feel like that is exactly what it is---deep guilt, coming out and then being hushed up again dang quick. Something as simple as seeing somebody else's death would not have been ignored or left unexplained, I think.
With all of this, I cannot see the Shardblade having come from anybody but her father, after his death. I can't see Shallan as having killed anybody else, or see her referring to it as the fruit of her most heinous act for any other reason. The situations where this would have happened are really easy to imagine; at least one plausible one has been suggested here. There is no reason to think Shallan and her father would not have been completely alone when it happened (it's actually quite likely) and no reason Shallan could not have taken the blade in the second after his death, out of sheer stunned shock. How she would have gotten a Shardblade before the murder---I have no idea. If it involves her killing people, it's out. If it involves somebody giving it to her, you have to ask why it's the fruit, not the cause, or her most heinous act. It just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen a coherent theory that makes sense besides the one I've outlined here!
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You left how the Soulcaster that was on the inside pocket of his coat would have gotten sheared through in two places. A shardblade is the most likely killing weapon at this point. I really doubt that he wasn't wearing the coat when it got cut through, seems like something as valuable as the Soulcaster he'd want to keep about his person at all times.
As far as the murder of her father being a source of deep guilt, well, duh. It was also obvious almost from the first mention of her shardblade that she didn't really want to think about it or dwell on it at all.
I'm not willing to rule out that someone outside of her family was there that night, and may have gotten killed as well. There isn't any solid evidence for it, only that if her father was killed with a shardblade, it would have taken a 2nd blow after death for him to be the dead bleeding body she was drawing. If there was another person killed that night, they could have been killed by a more typical weapon. If it was a stranger's shardblade, that might explain why they can't sell it without attracting unwanted attention.
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I can think of lots and lots of questions, and some excellent ones have already been raised. For example, how did Shallan's father get (at least) two super rare and expensive items (the shardblade and the soulcaster). Did they belong to the family historically? Did he set up some grand bargain with the Ghostbloods? Was he deeply part of the Ghostbloods and doing this as part of their schemes, or was is more for his own personal gain? Why were the Ghostbloods asking after the soulcaster but not the shardblade? Was there a "hidden" reason why Shallan's father seemed particularly over-protective of her, or was it a combination of culture and his personality? Why did Shallan of all people end up with the sword - if it just appeared by her father's dead body, why did she claim it and not one of her brothers (culturally, she's shouldn't be going near such things and she's doesn't come across as a tomboy)? Could it be that he actually gave the sword to her specifically? Shallan seems quite trusting of her brothers, but do they know she has that sword? How accurate is Shallan's perspective of events? What were the events leading up to her father's death - some kind of internal dispute (no hints that outsiders we involved on the day in question at least)? Was it something sudden and completely surprising or was it a "last straw" kind of event? It seems like it occurred at a family dinner almost, so why would Shallan (seemingly) play the biggest role and not one of her other brothers? Why did the soulcaster get damaged - was it "collateral damage" or did it play some part of the events?
I have theories concerning some of these questions you've raised. The soulcaster obviously came frp, the ghostbloods, but I doubt that the shardblade came from them (i doubt they even knew about it) as they would've asked for it back when they asked for the soulcaster. And I doubt that her father was high up in the Ghostbloods as they not have asked for the soulcaster back until they knew the father was dead, which they don't.
I think Shallan got the shardblade for killing her father, like most of these transactions occur. Her father doesnt sound like someone who would willingly bestow something so powerful on his daughter when he didnt think he was going to die (and she did kill him, so he probably wouldnt bestow it on her just before he died).
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Taking something I wrote earlier and expanding upon it a bit...
I actually rather like the proposition that Shallan's father "gave" her the sword.
The reasoning goes a bit like this: Shallan is a major viewpoint character for the whole series - book 2 or 3 will have her as the main focus (Brandon hasn't decided yet - read the Q&A links from his latest blog post), which would include full flashbacks, presumably to particular scenes only hinted at so far. I wouldn't be surprised if those flashbacks were already written, since a LOT of back-story was written already apparently. So, I wouldn't be least bit surprised if there are some really good answers to the things we're discussing here. Answers that make us go "argh, now why didn't I think of that earlier!?".
If Shallan's father "gives" her the sword he could also give her a reason not to sell it at the same time. ie some kind of dying message - in a similar way a certain king gives Szeth a particular gem to keep. Effectively, one thing can neatly solve two problems - why did Shallan of all people get the sword, and why didn't she sell it to save the house?
I'm certainly not saying that this is the only solution, but rather that the solution might be something along these lines.
One thing the book makes very clear is that Shallan finds conflict disturbing and always has and angry people make her very nervous. Her brothers tease her for being shy. This seems likely due to her father - after all, he was so bad he seems to have "broken" all of his children in some way, and that Shallan's 3 tutors left shortly after starting because of his temper. It's only more recent that Shallan has started becoming bolder. It's a bit hard to square this with Shallan killing her father somehow, but clearly it did happen - or at least, Shallan thinks she killed her father (can that spren tell the difference?). Personality-wise and culturally-wise, Shallan is the last person you'd expect to kill her father and also the last person to get a Shardblade. She'd need a good reason for picking it up if she did it on her own initiative. It's very hard to think of a good reason for her to pick it up and keep it if her father died and it simply appeared. She might be curious enough in general but if her father had just died I don't think she'd just be that interested at the time.
Also, Brandon doesn't seem to do "just so" stories that much. There's clearly a lot more to her father than meets the eye - more than can be explained with just flashbacks. If Shallan's father gives her the sword (or wills it to her) then it makes him and his backstory a lot more interesting. It would also make Shallan more conflicted about what she feels about him, which is right up Brandon's street.
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The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.
My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?
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The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.
My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?
I like that theory too, but I just can't see how the soulcaster could have been damaged by the shardblade. But at least this theory feels in place with the character of Shallan. There is no way that I can feasibly see Shallan owning a shardblade prior to killing her father.
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The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.
My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?
A man in a rage has a tendency to lose outer layers of clothing so he can beat people up. I can see a very angry man throw his coat to the ground to remove the restrictions, both mentally and physically, that are implied by said coat. (Removing a physical layer allows greater freedom of movement, the coat of a nobleman also implies restraint and control. Throwing it off just makes sense.)
Shallan's father stands up from the table in a rage, charges over and attacks Nan Balat, shattering his leg and rendering him unconcious. He turns to the table, gripping the edges for a brief moment before continuing his beating of the now-unconscious boy. Shallan grabs a steaknife and stabs her father in the back. Her father dies, slumping over the table. Shardblade materializes. In shock, Shallan bends down and picks up the blade, not really realizing what she is seeing. When her mind refocuses, she realizes what she has done, leaps back and drops the blade. The blade cuts through her father's coat, lying on the ground, and shears the soulcaster.
Deep-seated guilt and emotions prevent Shallan from telling anyone about the blade.
Fast forward a year or so, and you have the Shallan of today.
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The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.
My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?
A man in a rage has a tendency to lose outer layers of clothing so he can beat people up. I can see a very angry man throw his coat to the ground to remove the restrictions, both mentally and physically, that are implied by said coat. (Removing a physical layer allows greater freedom of movement, the coat of a nobleman also implies restraint and control. Throwing it off just makes sense.)
Shallan's father stands up from the table in a rage, charges over and attacks Nan Balat, shattering his leg and rendering him unconcious. He turns to the table, gripping the edges for a brief moment before continuing his beating of the now-unconscious boy. Shallan grabs a steaknife and stabs her father in the back. Her father dies, slumping over the table. Shardblade materializes. In shock, Shallan bends down and picks up the blade, not really realizing what she is seeing. When her mind refocuses, she realizes what she has done, leaps back and drops the blade. The blade cuts through her father's coat, lying on the ground, and shears the soulcaster.
Deep-seated guilt and emotions prevent Shallan from telling anyone about the blade.
Fast forward a year or so, and you have the Shallan of today.
Would the shardblade demist when it hits the ground, or just when it leaves the hand. If the latter, then maybe she deliberately or accidentally struck at the coat with the shardblade, not realising the soulcaster was in it.
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There's a small amount of time between letting go of a shardblade and it dematerializing, but it's long enough to cut through something as it's falling.
He cursed, yanking Gallant in a tight turn, but the tail came too quickly. It slammed into Gallant, and in a heartbeat Dalinar found himself rolling, Oathbringer tumbling from his fingers and slicing a gash in the stone ground before puffing to mist.
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There's a small amount of time between letting go of a shardblade and it dematerializing, but it's long enough to cut through something as it's falling.
He cursed, yanking Gallant in a tight turn, but the tail came too quickly. It slammed into Gallant, and in a heartbeat Dalinar found himself rolling, Oathbringer tumbling from his fingers and slicing a gash in the stone ground before puffing to mist.
I guess that clears that one up. I agree with Erunion. This sort of explanation fits with how I thought Shallan's character would react.
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You left how the Soulcaster that was on the inside pocket of his coat would have gotten sheared through in two places. A shardblade is the most likely killing weapon at this point. I really doubt that he wasn't wearing the coat when it got cut through, seems like something as valuable as the Soulcaster he'd want to keep about his person at all times.
As far as the murder of her father being a source of deep guilt, well, duh. It was also obvious almost from the first mention of her shardblade that she didn't really want to think about it or dwell on it at all.
I'm not willing to rule out that someone outside of her family was there that night, and may have gotten killed as well. There isn't any solid evidence for it, only that if her father was killed with a shardblade, it would have taken a 2nd blow after death for him to be the dead bleeding body she was drawing. If there was another person killed that night, they could have been killed by a more typical weapon. If it was a stranger's shardblade, that might explain why they can't sell it without attracting unwanted attention.
I cannot, repeat, cannot square this Shallan's character. Death shocks her deeply. Another person involved who dies---it just doesn't work at any level. It would have come out in her guilt, somehow.
As to the Soulcaster being broken---I suppose a Shardblade could have done it. That may explain why it can't be repaired. But we just don't know enough to assume that that is what did it.
BTW, I'm totally on board with Shallan not knowing she was claiming a Shardblade when she did. If things were half as chaotic as they must have been, she would have been in total shock and denial. Not knowing what you are doing is a common response to that kind of thing, and Bam! Shardblade claimed.
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Hm, there is still a problem with Shalan dropping the shardbalde and destroying the soulcaster:
The soulcaster was found in the inside pocket of the coat, and the dead man was lying on his face.
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Hm, there is still a problem with Shalan dropping the shardbalde and destroying the soulcaster:
The soulcaster was found in the inside pocket of the coat, and the dead man was lying on his face.
There's an even bigger problem with the idea that the soulcaster was destroyed by the Shardblade at all: If it was in his inside pocket, the shardblade would have sliced the coat. Her brothers would probably have noticed that! This strikes me as evidence the the Shardblade was not what destroyed the fabrial.
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I'm standing by the soulcaster cut by shardblade theory, because I don't know how else a metal object could have gotten "sheared" in multiple places. Short of a very sharp, very hard conventional blade, moving very fast. And when there's a shardblade at the scene already, I'll go with it as the most likely tool. There was no mention of the condition of the coat, just the soulcaster was found in the coat's inside pocket. The coat could have been in tatters for all we know, as long as the original location of the soulcaster could be determined to be the inside pocket.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.
Also, dead people still bleed, especially freshly dead, because the blood hasn't congealed and gravity affects blood like any other liquid.
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Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?
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Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?
I never thought of that, but it could be possible. I think the spren are honesty spren (they search for truth). Note how honesty is the second divine attribute for the 6-shash essence, which is probably the order of knights radiant that Shallan would be attached to. The people of that essence exhibit the primary divine attribute of creativity. So while the honesty spren might search for honesty, they can still be attracted to those with creative abilities.
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Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?
The line-head spren have made a couple other appearances as well.
One of the death visions references a figure with a "head of lines", and I think there was also a passing mention of Elhokar seeing squiggle-heads in the mirror -- possibly the cause of his assassination paranoia. It's quite possible Gavilar saw them too -- right around when he started acting strangely.
I suspect that they're a "natural phenomena" related to Shadesmar and the transactions involved with Soulcasting.
As far as the Shardblade -- There are a few examples of Shardbearers commanding their Blades to remain intact when they set them down. This is generally not such a great thing do do because it's so risky -- anyone could just pick it up and stab you with it (like, for instance... a daughter who you have just driven to the brink of murderous rage?).
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Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?
The line-head spren have made a couple other appearances as well.
One of the death visions references a figure with a "head of lines", and I think there was also a passing mention of Elhokar seeing squiggle-heads in the mirror -- possibly the cause of his assassination paranoia. It's quite possible Gavilar saw them too -- right around when he started acting strangely.
I suspect that they're a "natural phenomena" related to Shadesmar and the transactions involved with Soulcasting.
As far as the Shardblade -- There are a few examples of Shardbearers commanding their Blades to remain intact when they set them down. This is generally not such a great thing do do because it's so risky -- anyone could just pick it up and stab you with it (like, for instance... a daughter who you have just driven to the brink of murderous rage?).
This might actually work. Having another person involved was a stretch I couldn't buy. This is more likely. But still, why would her picture of her father's death be so---prosaic, then? A person lying in blood is shocking, yes, because someone has died. It would be personally very meaningful to her. But it's not particularly supernatural.
I also still have not seen a good explanation for why Shallan would refer to the blade as the fruit of her sin if she used it to commit the murder itself. Would somebody please explain how they square this simple statement with the belief that the Shardblade was used to do the actual killing? It alone makes me think that her father's death came first, and the Shardblade claiming second. That's what the sentence means: It implies a causal connection.
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Richard fife's review on tor.com says that its implied she was a victim of sexual abuse. Did any of you see a hint of that?
Didn't her Dad put her in the "Chasity" Calling? Maybe he didn't want anyone else to know he was tapping that!
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Any subsequent blows after the initial death would have cut flesh, and she might have been flailing at him with it.
We get a description of someone being cut open after they died with a shardblade and we're explicitly told there's very little blood compared to conventional weapons.
I want to say that it's during Dalinar's assault on the Tower.
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Any subsequent blows after the initial death would have cut flesh, and she might have been flailing at him with it.
We get a description of someone being cut open after they died with a shardblade and we're explicitly told there's very little blood compared to conventional weapons.
I want to say that it's during Dalinar's assault on the Tower.
Naturally, the dead don't bleed like the living. There's no blood pressure in their veins.
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Not only do the dead have less blood pressure, the shardblade cuts too thinly. The sharper the blade, the smaller the wound. If a wound is very, very thin, blood will only seep out, as it simply doesn't have enough room to flow.
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Hey all, this is my first post here so if I'm out of line, please be gentle. :)
I'm not too crazy about any of the current theories on Shallan's father's death and how she acquired a Shardblade so I'd like to present my own theory.
Based on Shallan's reaction to Jasnah's murder of the theives, and her complete aversion to any type of confrontation, it doesnt seem plausible to me that she has ever killed in the past, even by accident. ESPECIALLY if she hed killed her father. She seems too soft spoken, timid, distraught and emotional. She didn't comprehend how someone could take another's life even when threatend by four knife-weilding brutes in a dark alley. And all this even though she completely understands that "The men Jasnah had killed were terrible creatures, and she had little doubt that they would have killed her." Plus, taking into account that she completely froze during the attack, remember she is described as being paralyzed with fear, how could she have attacked and killed her father?
My current theory is similar to some others here, in that I believe there is a third player in the death of her father. We are all missing (or overlooking) some important aspects of what happened, but it's the best solution I can come up with. Here's my thought on how it might have happened;
Ghostblood visitor is conversing secretly with father and possibly Nan Balat, perhaps trying to recover the lost Blade and Plate given to Helaran (which is another theory I believe is correct). Meeting goes poorly and visitor decideds that Nan Balat might have the items (or perhaps just to coerce more info from Father) so he begins torturing Nan Balat for information or compliance. This would explain the shattered leg and how near death/unconscious Nan Balat was. Somehow able to get close to the visitor, Father uses the fabrial to change the visitor to smoke, but not before being fataly wounded. Blade materializes, slicing fabrial, perhaps also killing father.
At some point during this event Shallan, hearing the commotion, enters. Perhaps this was when Father had his chance to kill visitor, perhaps after Father had already vanquished him and been wounded. Father orders her to give him the Blade, or give it to Nan Balat, or even perhaps for her to keep it. She picks it up, the knowledge of it's use infuses her causing her to drop it, and it turns to mist. Father slowly bleeds out his life while Shallan watches. The important part is that Shallan sees her father dying and instead of helping him she stands by and lets him die. Maybe the knowledge infusing her put her into shock, or perhaps she saw it as a way to end the family's torture. Whatever the reason, she let him die and that's why the Blade is the fruit of her sins and something she never wants to use.
Right now, based on Shallan's current character, this is the only explanation that makes sense to me.
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I realize that "any" scenario is possible when it comes to Shallan's killing of her father.. but really, do people honestly believe that there could be a more "heinous act" than murdering her own father? She could barely stand up when she saw Jasnah kill street thugs who were probably going to rape and kill the two of them. I don't think shes ever killed anyone other than her father.
I stand by the most likely scenario as, "Shallan kills her father, his shardblade appears, and she picks it up".
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what if she used soul casting to kill her father, it uses blood, and he was covered in blood at the end.
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what if she used soul casting to kill her father, it uses blood, and he was covered in blood at the end.
From my understanding, she never used soulcasting before turning the goblet into blood so I don't think she could have killed her father using it.
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I realize that "any" scenario is possible when it comes to Shallan's killing of her father.. but really, do people honestly believe that there could be a more "heinous act" than murdering her own father? She could barely stand up when she saw Jasnah kill street thugs who were probably going to rape and kill the two of them. I don't think shes ever killed anyone other than her father.
I stand by the most likely scenario as, "Shallan kills her father, his shardblade appears, and she picks it up".
Especially when she calls herself a murderer. I seriously doubt she is stupid enough to think she could have done anything if he had been mortally wounded by someone else, and thus be a "murderer".
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Plus, she doesn't start seeing the "Soulcasting Spren" until shes studying under Jasnah for a decent amount of time.
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I just read this entire thread and want to throw a few ideas out there.
1) has anyone considered that the person on the floor wasn't her father? I can't remember the scene, but if the guy isn't specifically considered 'dead', then it could even be Nan Balat.
2)I like the idea that Shallan picked up the blade by accident, but it also seems possible that she convinced her father to give her the Blade, which may have been an indirect cause of his death. Her father had a lot of enemies. This may have put him without a weapon when in need.
3)that brings up the soulcaster. Given what we now know about spren, I wonder if someone intentionally sheared the object in order to release the spren or at least render it useless for a future murder. I know that theory has a lot of holes in it since I'm not inclined to believe that a Shardbearer would bother cutting up a soulcaster for that reason.
-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?
4) I can see the Ghostbloods killing members off for slight discrepancies. Her dad must have had a million opportunities to piss these guys off, so maybe he took one.
5)Shallan refers to herself maybe once as a murderer. But she says a lot of times that she's a traitor.
Considering what I've done before, she thought, this is nothing. It wouldn't be the first time she betrayed someone who trusted her.
Though I must point out, I'm not really sure why she'd classify her father as someone who trusted her. They weren't the tightest-knit group.
6)I'm not a fan of the idea that Shallan was directly responsible for her fathers death. This constant idea of betrayal, though, makes me think she may have slipped information/gave someone the means and opportunity to go after her father. May or may not have been intentional. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that Shallan's part in her fathers death was indirect.
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I just read this entire thread and want to throw a few ideas out there.
1) has anyone considered that the person on the floor wasn't her father? I can't remember the scene, but if the guy isn't specifically considered 'dead', then it could even be Nan Balat.
It's been considered. It's possible but unlikely. The fact is that the book doesn't describe Shallan's thoughts about the scene at all when she draws it. She draws it, realizes she's drawn it, and (IIRC) destroys it without giving us any information. As if she was avoiding thinking about it at any possible cost.
2)I like the idea that Shallan picked up the blade by accident, but it also seems possible that she convinced her father to give her the Blade, which may have been an indirect cause of his death. Her father had a lot of enemies. This may have put him without a weapon when in need.
3)that brings up the soulcaster. Given what we now know about spren, I wonder if someone intentionally sheared the object in order to release the spren or at least render it useless for a future murder. I know that theory has a lot of holes in it since I'm not inclined to believe that a Shardbearer would bother cutting up a soulcaster for that reason.
-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?
4) I can see the Ghostbloods killing members off for slight discrepancies. Her dad must have had a million opportunities to piss these guys off, so maybe he took one.
5)Shallan refers to herself maybe once as a murderer. But she says a lot of times that she's a traitor.
Considering what I've done before, she thought, this is nothing. It wouldn't be the first time she betrayed someone who trusted her.
Though I must point out, I'm not really sure why she'd classify her father as someone who trusted her. They weren't the tightest-knit group.
I have to take exception with this last part. I expect that their family was ferociously dysfunctional, but emotionally tight-knit. It doesn't have to be a good emotion. From her backstory, she seems to have been incredibly isolated. Her family, as bad as it apparently was, was all she had. And her father probably did trust her, as did her brothers. How many people do we have who she could have betrayed?
6)I'm not a fan of the idea that Shallan was directly responsible for her fathers death. This constant idea of betrayal, though, makes me think she may have slipped information/gave someone the means and opportunity to go after her father. May or may not have been intentional. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that Shallan's part in her fathers death was indirect.
And I think that Shallan is smart enough to tell the difference between murdering somebody and accidentally leaving them exposed to danger. Especially when the other person should be more than capable of taking care of themselves. Her father seems like the sort who would like to take control, and Shallan seems to be the sort who would let him take control. Because of that, I don't see anything but direct action on her part leaving her feeling responsible, because normally she would (quite rightly) transfer it to her father.
Besides, isn't killing your father an act of betrayal? She's apparently loyal to her brothers.
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-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?
They found them and glued (or something) them back together. Shallan has the reassembled pieces, and her possession of them is a critical part of her plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster - without them, she'd have nothing to replace Jasnah's soulcaster with. I'm not sure how you could have missed this, as it's rather important to her part of the plot and is mentioned repeatedly.
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Why doesnt the soulcaster work even if it has been put back together perfectly?
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Can't tell you exactly without knowing more about soulcasters, but it is likely that the spren imprisoned in the soulcaster is gone, released (or destroyed?) when the soulcaster was broken.
That is, of course, if soulcasters follow the examples of more modern fabrials in relying on imprisoned spren.
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Because it hasn't been put back together "perfectly", just well enough that visual and tactile inspection can't tell the difference. It is an ancient magical device, and mere physical reassembly is not sufficient to repair damage to the magical portion of its workings.
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Can't tell you exactly without knowing more about soulcasters, but it is likely that the spren imprisoned in the soulcaster is gone, released (or destroyed?) when the soulcaster was broken.
That is, of course, if soulcasters follow the examples of more modern fabrials in relying on imprisoned spren.
It also assumes that any Soulcasting requires fabrials. We've only seen a broken fabrial and a decoy. The ardents, who use the rest of them, always use them in secret. They could all be fakes, just useful places to carry infused gemstones to use in spren-fueled soulcasting that the ardents still remember how to do from the Shadowdays.
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I think the majority of Soulcasting is done using fabrials, there might be a few special cases besides Jasnah and Shallan though.
Can't tell you exactly without knowing more about soulcasters, but it is likely that the spren imprisoned in the soulcaster is gone, released (or destroyed?) when the soulcaster was broken.
That is, of course, if soulcasters follow the examples of more modern fabrials in relying on imprisoned spren.
According to Harakeke's translation (thank you) of Navani's notebook:
The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations.
Once a spren is captured and the gem infused with Stormlight the fabrial can be used in machines.
It's the gems that attract and imprison spren, and by infusing the gem with stormlight the gem becomes usable. The fabrials themselves (Soulcasters and Shardplate included?) aren't what's imprisoning the spren. I wonder if this is related to how cut gems store more stormlight than uncut.
Because it hasn't been put back together "perfectly", just well enough that visual and tactile inspection can't tell the difference. It is an ancient magical device, and mere physical reassembly is not sufficient to repair damage to the magical portion of its workings.
This is what I'm going with.
Also: The Soulcaster was found in an inside coat pocket, sheared through a chain and a gem setting (I believe there are 3 gem settings and 2 chains that connect to 2 rings, quite a bit like the angreal that Nynaeve used in WoT, which is a possible influence on its design). They had a jeweler repair it to the degree that Shallan can't visibly tell that it was broken.
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I've been doing my first reread, and found something rather interesting:
The miners eventually tired to Took's increasingly slurred stories. They bid him farewell, ignoring his broad hints that another cup of beer would prompt him to tell his greatest tale: that of the time when he'd seen the Nightwatcher herself and stolen a sphere that glowed as black as night. That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He'd hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn't know what it was, but he didn't want to risk a master taking it from him.
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Maybe the blood in the picture Shallan drew doesn't mean there was actually blood in that scene when it really happened - maybe she added blood because she expected it to be there, subconsciously, or because the presence of blood was true in a metaphorical or spiritual sense. Just like when she draws the symbol-headed spren into her pictures, they weren't actually visible in real life (but were present in some other way).
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Do we know how Shallan's stepmother died and when? Any chance it was the same disastrous evening?
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Maybe the blood in the picture Shallan drew doesn't mean there was actually blood in that scene when it really happened - maybe she added blood because she expected it to be there, subconsciously, or because the presence of blood was true in a metaphorical or spiritual sense. Just like when she draws the symbol-headed spren into her pictures, they weren't actually visible in real life (but were present in some other way).
Shallan has a photographic memory. If she drew blood, then blood was probably there, she would've been drawing straight from her memory.
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Do we know how Shallan's stepmother died and when? Any chance it was the same disastrous evening?
I assumed she died prior to the death of Shallan's dad. I vaguely remember a comment on Shallan's dad's long term reaction to his second wife's death.
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It also assumes that any Soulcasting requires fabrials. We've only seen a broken fabrial and a decoy. The ardents, who use the rest of them, always use them in secret. They could all be fakes, just useful places to carry infused gemstones to use in spren-fueled soulcasting that the ardents still remember how to do from the Shadowdays.
Shallan raises the same question in Ch. 72, and Jasnah assures here that Soulcasting fabrials are not a hoax, and that there's something special about people who can Soulcast on their own.
Jasnah is about to explain exactly how Soulcasting is related to the Knights Radiant (apparantly two orders of Knights could pull off the soulcasting trick)... but then decides to hold off until the next book, just to tease us. =P
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The voice of God *cough Brandon cough* told her not to reveal the information. Of course, Jasnah thought it was just her subconscious, but we know better. ;)
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Maybe the blood in the picture Shallan drew doesn't mean there was actually blood in that scene when it really happened - maybe she added blood because she expected it to be there, subconsciously, or because the presence of blood was true in a metaphorical or spiritual sense. Just like when she draws the symbol-headed spren into her pictures, they weren't actually visible in real life (but were present in some other way).
Shallan has a photographic memory. If she drew blood, then blood was probably there, she would've been drawing straight from her memory.
Not just a photographic memory -- but a Memory (with a capital M!). The detail in which it's described reminds me of Dalinar's Thrill (with a capital T.)
Hmmm... Memory, Thrill, Shardblade, Soulcaster, Oathpact, Heralds...
I've got it -- the power of the Shard of Adonalsium that was held by The Almighty was... Capitalization!
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Maybe the blood in the picture Shallan drew doesn't mean there was actually blood in that scene when it really happened - maybe she added blood because she expected it to be there, subconsciously, or because the presence of blood was true in a metaphorical or spiritual sense. Just like when she draws the symbol-headed spren into her pictures, they weren't actually visible in real life (but were present in some other way).
Shallan has a photographic memory. If she drew blood, then blood was probably there, she would've been drawing straight from her memory.
Lol, and Odium is Communism.
However, you do raise a good point there. I think there is something more here than meets the eye. Further research is needed.
Not just a photographic memory -- but a Memory (with a capital M!). The detail in which it's described reminds me of Dalinar's Thrill (with a capital T.)
Hmmm... Memory, Thrill, Shardblade, Soulcaster, Oathpact, Heralds...
I've got it -- the power of the Shard of Adonalsium that was held by The Almighty was... Capitalization!