Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Reading Excuses => Topic started by: Talyn on May 31, 2010, 06:40:48 PM
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Thanks for reading.
Now let me have it!
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Hmmm.
I wasn't immensely interested in the piece, and I've been thinking for a bit on why I wasn't interested. I think it may have to do with several factors.
First, our nameless main character isn't terribly fascinating, as he's pretty much a run-of-the-mill guy. I don't know any of his backstory. Now, I don't need backstory necessarily, but I do need a clear impression of the main character, and for that, I need to know his conflicts. This character doesn't really have anything interesting going on internally, which is sad because first-person should get us really close to the character. Here, all I really know is that he's poor and he tries to be funny.
That lack of character is critical because now it's really difficult to ground myself in the story. There's little to care for. Also, with such a generic character, it separates me from the setting. Really, you could have the exact same character in a modern story, a WWII story, a horror story, or a sci-fi story. Whereas character usually flows from the setting, there's not much to the character which grounds us in the setting. I suppose considering the smith metaphors could imply that he once worked in a smithy, but that is not clear.
So, naturally, the second issue is the setting. There's nothing in the setting that particularly excites me or dazzles me. It seems to be a classic medieval setting with dragons. Been there, done that.
That's really the issue I have thus far. You can have a classic setting, but there needs to be a cool character pushing the reader through it, or a cool conflict. There's nothing I can sink my teeth at the moment, and as such, if I saw this in a bookstore, I would put it down. There's not enough emotional attachment to make that first moment with the dragon seem to matter. Your character is almost snarky that the whole farm was burned down when this should be a tragedy. While the dragon segment is perfectly serviceable prose-wise, the main character is detached from the battle, so I'm sort of bored.
At the present, I don't have an emotional or intellectual connection with your story.
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I enjoyed this read. I think that with a little effort the Swords and Sorcery style of story is making a comeback. These things go in cycles, though, just like vampires and werewolfs, so who knows?
As to the character of the piece, I really liked his voice. I'd agree that he might benefit from a little backstory, but don't lose that voice!
The only thing I found difficult about the piece is separating his internal thoughts from the rest of the piece. I think this might be solved with some simple italics, though.
I'm looking forward to another chapter, so we can see how things roll from here. Remember to take everyone's comments with a big old bag of salt, since a novel is more than just a short story, and it's always hard to judge just a single snippet of the whole. :D
I've emailed you back some line edits using the Microsoft Word/Openoffice track changes thingy.
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Chaos: You make some good points, but I must disrespectfully disagree with your statement that character flows from setting. For me at least, the character comes first, and the setting and everything else flows from him. But of course, not everyone writes that way. I agree he's ordinary. That was on purpose. I believe a character doesn't need to have a tragic past or deep-seated psychological issues in order to grow. As for the detachment, once it was clear the family was in no danger, he was simply admiring the swiftness of the destruction. Though the delivery could probably use some work.
Dark: Glad you enjoyed it. That voice was the first thing I had, back before I even knew the plot. Just sat down and starting writing, had my first chapter in an hour (barely resembles this version though :P) Personally I don't like using italics in first person. To me, they're all his thoughts, so why only differentiate a few?
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Chaos: You make some good points, but I must disrespectfully disagree with your statement that character flows from setting. For me at least, the character comes first, and the setting and everything else flows from him. But of course, not everyone writes that way. I agree he's ordinary. That was on purpose. I believe a character doesn't need to have a tragic past or deep-seated psychological issues in order to grow. As for the detachment, once it was clear the family was in no danger, he was simply admiring the swiftness of the destruction. Though the delivery could probably use some work.
I think you're meaning that the character reveals the setting, in which case I agree with you (in fact, I come up with character first in my outlining and work him/her into the setting) The one I referred to is a David Farland quote. He basically said that any character is a member of the society they are in, so setting determines character, and the characters should determine the plot (something like that).
I also agree a character doesn't have to have deep-seated psychological issues to have an arc, but there does need to be conflict from the very start. There's plenty of kinds of conflict: Interpersonal conflict, internal conflict, an external conflict (fighting against nature), or even divine conflict (fighting against god). The reason why conflict is good is because it lets us know how the character acts. Your MC is fun--the best line in the piece was the one making fun of powerful artifacts and quest fantasy--but I didn't laugh at loud, so it wasn't enough to hook me. Sure, your character doesn't have a tragic background, that's fine. I don't care what he isn't, I want to know what he is. Right now the character appears to have no depth. Ordinary people, as we all know, have their own desires, conflicts, and contradictions. I want more of this.
I suppose my problem with the piece was that it lacked all the crucial elements for a hook or starting chapter. No mystery to intrigue me, no conflict to sink my teeth into, and not enough humor to make up for the lack of depth.
That sounds extremely negative, I know. But right now, I expect the novel to eventually turn into a classic quest story to find one of those artifacts. It's ground that has been treaded many, many times, so I wonder what sets this piece apart.
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Oh believe me, it's not going to turn into that. I'm using classic elements, true, but they'll be twisted. Also, where are you getting the idea there's no conflict? It might not be very compelling in your opinion, but it is there. The conflict is introduced in the first sentence. The dragon is terrorizing the port and the surrounding countryside. The MC wants to go after it. He has to gather people willing to fight such a monstrosity, he has to survive such a confrontation. The problem comes when it turns out the conflict is not so cut and dry as a marauding monster. I thought I hinted at it with dragon's odd behavior: Letting the people escape, not sticking around to eat the livestock...
I see what you meant by character. A character's personality is largely shaped by the society and environment he grows up in. I'm not disputing that. My brain just seems to work backwards: I come up with the character first, and then determine a background that would produce him.
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I see what you meant by character. A character's personality is largely shaped by the society and environment he grows up in. I'm not disputing that. My brain just seems to work backwards: I come up with the character first, and then determine a background that would produce him.
Same with me, really.
Oh believe me, it's not going to turn into that. I'm using classic elements, true, but they'll be twisted. Also, where are you getting the idea there's no conflict? It might not be very compelling in your opinion, but it is there. The conflict is introduced in the first sentence. The dragon is terrorizing the port and the surrounding countryside. The MC wants to go after it. He has to gather people willing to fight such a monstrosity, he has to survive such a confrontation. The problem comes when it turns out the conflict is not so cut and dry as a marauding monster. I thought I hinted at it with dragon's odd behavior: Letting the people escape, not sticking around to eat the livestock...
I meant there's no character conflict. Without caring for the character, it really doesn't matter what the main plot is, yes?
And this is my personal opinion: that's a pretty small main conflict. I'd expect an extremely short book. 70,000 words might be pushing it. It's highly possible that this may work better as a short story or a novelette, because then you can focus on plot and go much lighter on character, and people will forgive you. Kind of.
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Dangit, it's hard to make an argument when I can't even tell you the 'big reveal'. Just trust me that the dragon SEEMS like the main conflict and certainly is at this point, but is really only part of the problem. There's no way this would fit into a short story.
But you've given me plenty to think on, so thanks.
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The first thing that struck me about this was the character's voice. It's easily the strongest aspect of the piece - engaging and personable, with just the right measure of dry wit. As Chaos said, he didn't make me laugh out loud, but he made me chuckle inwardly a little bit. Is this intended to be a funny story?
Also... I didn't realize Conner was a horse until about a fourth of the way through. It's a little weird that the horse has a name, while your first person MC so far does not.
Aside from that, nothing really stands out. Medieval setting. Dragon attacks farm. Unnamed man decides to collect reward. Needs help. LOOK! A barbarian. Yawn. Nothing stands out, aside from the voice, and while I enjoy it, it's not compelling enough to carry an entire book. The dragon attack, odd as it may sound, fell flat for me because no one was in any danger. Once the MC realized he was safe... I stopped caring. It was interesting, a little, how the dragon didn't attack anyone directly or eat any livestock, but the fact that no one was in any danger made the attack boring. And Unnamed Mercenary just watched.
Aside from being personable, I haven't the foggiest in regards to his personality. If he;d done something to try and help, it may have shown some aspects of his character, but he didn't. He just stood there, watching. This lacks dynamic, and thus the character lacks dynamic. When I see a dragon attack, I want to see the hero rush in and do what he can to help, or rush in and help the dragon, or rush in and start looting - ANYTHING! Standing there and watching makes him nothing more than a spectator, and spectators don't stand out.
Then he steals some meat, and decides to get the reward. Unnamed Mercenary Man (who shall hereby be referred to as 'Umm' ) needs help though, and the first person he finds... is a barbarian. Okay, when I read that, my first thought was 'So we have a fighter and a barbarian. We'll need a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard. If we're lucky, we can get a Paladin too, but Josh might not want to play since the last campaign ended with his character being gang-raped by anthropomorphic trees.' I'm beginning to wonder if you're turning a D&D campaign into a story. There's nothing wrong with that, but you'll want to disguise it better.
From the other comments, it sounds as if the story is hinging upon a big reveal. A big reveal that shows the story isn't as cliche as it seems. I'm going to say right now, this big reveal better happen in the next two chapters (by the end of chapter three, at the latest) or it's likely to fall flat on it's face. You might be able to get away with not having it in the first five or six chapters, if you give us some very compelling characters. It looks as if Umm is going to be recruiting for a chapter or so, so you may succeed in this. However, if you wait too long, the people who don't like the 'fantasy like they've seen before' will stop reading before it happens due to, well... it being something they've seen a million times before. And the people that do keep reading, will likely end up pissed when the big, game changing plot twist reveal comes out, because the story was going the way they wanted it to and then you twisted it in a way they weren't expecting and didn't like.
I think that's all I have to say. The writing is good, Umm's voice is strong. I can forgive cliche if it makes me laugh, and since you have a funny character... I hope this is gonna be a funny story.
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Okay, when I read that, my first thought was 'So we have a fighter and a barbarian. We'll need a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard. If we're lucky, we can get a Paladin too, but Josh might not want to play since the last campaign ended with his character being gang-raped by anthropomorphic trees.' I'm beginning to wonder if you're turning a D&D campaign into a story. There's nothing wrong with that, but you'll want to disguise it better.
Le gasp! How did you know?! [/sarcasm] Actually, there will be an archer, mage and knight. And yes, I purposely made it sound like a D&D campaign. I set out to poke fun at the cliche's although since then it's grown into its own story. Tune in next week!
...okay I'll stop. I've been stressing over my writing lately and I may have just gone crazy. No matter.
The point I was trying to make is in the very next chapter I break the mold. And actually, this is his only bit of recruiting.
I do agree that he needs to be a little more involved. This is actually the first version of the chapter that includes the attack at all; originally he saw only the results, and it happened a few chapters later. You all wouldn't have wanted to read the first version. It was more snarky, but it was rambling, and nothing much happened.
As for not knowing Conner was a horse, sorry, but I think that one's you. I say so in the fifth sentence, after alluding to reins in the fourth. ("What the hell! Conner!" I yelled after him; the stupid horse has my gear.)
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The point I was trying to make is in the very next chapter I break the mold. And actually, this is his only bit of recruiting.
Good. This makes me happy.
To be fair I didn't know Conner was a horse, but then I scrolled back up and realized I was just silly, because that line was there.
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Shiver, I also have to mention that I found 'Umm' hilarious. He actually does have a name, and you learn it at the end of the next chapter, there's just no way I could slip it in naturally in this chapter with it being first person. (who thinks their name to himself?)
And Chaos I'm glad you're finally happy about something. Kidding ;)
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For the first page and a half I wasn't sure whether Conner was a horse or a person. There are a few lines that make Conner seem human: "He looked up and up and up. And then he bolted." "Conner followed, though without protest."
Admittedly I somehow missed the line on the first page which read "stupid horse has my gear," but while I don't know much about horses, I'm still not sure a horse would behave this way. It panics, bolts... and then has the presence of mind to come back to its owner. Seems a little bizarre to me. And how does a horse "protest?" seems to me that a human would have a very difficult time of it, trying to dragged a panicked horse where the horse didn't want to go.
How old is this character? He seems quite young--say, around eighteen or something--but that doesn't really fit with the grizzled mercenary vibe that you seem to be going for.
The really conversational voice is different, and I appreciate that, though I could see it getting annoying if it's overdone. And as always with a distinctive voice, I like to see it doing something. I would probably be much more enthusiastic about the voice if it were adding more to the narrator's character--so far he's chatty and that's different, but he seems to be chatty about things that are mostly inconsequential. So I think you could take advantage of that voice to make this into something far more revealing about your character.
You could also use it for humorous purposes. I don't know if this is the direction you're going, but that line where he was making fun of artefacts was pretty funny. If you've got more lines like that, I want to see 'em. :)
I've gotta agree that so far, the voice is much more distinctive than either the character or the setting, and we don't see much of either. As others have already mentioned, we have no real idea of what makes your narrator tick, and we don't really know what your setting looks like. I think that the lack of characterization and setting that the others have noted is coming mostly from the fact that we don't have enough to sink our teeth into. There's probably more information you can give us without undermining your Big Reveal about the character, or the setting, or whatever, that will catch a reader's interest right from the first chapter. Or, if you're making fun of D&D campaigns, you could bring that out more. Because while I think some readers would flip to the next chapter, hoping to find out more, some readers would probably put it down who might otherwise be interested in what came later.
This could go any number of potentially interesting ways, however, so I think you've made a good start in that respect. Oh, and if making fun of D&D cliches is what you're into, you might want to check out Bob Defendi's audio book Death By Cliche (http://playtesting.net/?p=5).
Hope that helps. :) Good work and good luck.
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Silk, since you admit not knowing much about horses, let me explain where I'm coming from with Conner. Unlike a lot of fantasy stories where the horse is merely living transportation, no more than part of the scenery, Conner has his own distinct personality, and therefore is a character in his own right. It's also more true to life since any horse-owner will tell you the same. Is your argument that he seems too smart? There is a ton of literature out there about horse intelligence. Did you know miniature horses can do as much and more than any guide dog, plus they live over three times longer? War horses were trained to fight with their riders. I saw a demonstration by a police horse once. If I were on the run, I'd be more afraid of the horse than the cop riding it.
As for him returning to his owner, that can also be explained by training. Horses can be acclimated to all kinds of noises and chaos (think about mounted police in cities). A mercenary would also have frequent encounters of the sort, at least in my world, so we can explain his quick return as such.
His 'protest' would be a grumble, a snort, any sort of noise a horse would make. I don't have to be specific for a reader to infer that he makes a noise meaning he isn't happy.
I imagine my narrator is about thirty or so. No, he's not a grizzled old veteran, but he's not a novice either. He does have some experience. His voice is still being refined. My first version was very chatty, sardonic, and snarky, but it went all over the place as new thoughts popped up. I'm still trying to find the happy medium.
This chapter actually has been tweaked since the version you read. I can send it to you if you're interested.
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Regarding the horse-or-person thing: I don't really know what to tell you. It seems weird that all three of us had the same problem, but the line IS there...
It's not necessarily that the horse is too smart; it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that a frightened animal would run off, then turn around and double back. If it's just a matter of training, though, you could easily throw that in there. That would clear up some confusion for neophytes like me (and, well, probably a large number of readers) and maybe tell us a little bit more about the character as well.
Normally I'd be happy to read it again, but to be honest I couldn't get to it in any sort of timely fashion right now. I'm still working my way through a rather substantial backlog of submissions from this group, as anyone who's been a long-time member will happily complain about tell you. ;)
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Okay, time to wade through my backlog of submissions. So here I am.
A lot of the friendly banter (this isn't arguing, right?) in this thread I'll have to agree with. I think I can elaborate on some things, too.
My first image of Conner was that he was someone on a horse. I saw your MC leading a horse by the reins with something like a small child on it. This actually persisted until page 3, when he flipped his tail. Then I thought, "Wait, so some characters have tails in this?" Then I read back and realized that Conner was the horse. Dang. Now, I don't personally care if your horses are as intelligent or moreso than real horses. That's fine. But this one seems to pop up too many human mannerisms. Horses don't gaze up at dragons before running. They bolt, even if they are trained. Or, they stand their ground, because they've been trained to. They have far better hearing than humans, and would have known about the dragon long before your MC did. I grew up around horses; I'd have one now if I had the money to build a barn for it. Horses act like horses, not like people. Yes, they can be trained very well, but yours is inconsistent.
Your character feels like he is narrating the story. It's very telly. Now, that doesn't necessarily need to be a bad thing (it is first person, after all), but descriptions of things just seem thrown in sometimes. It's like he's scatterbrained. If that's your intent, great.
However, the story he's narrating does not exist. You build up this huge tension in the first three lines, and then let it peter out. Nothing of note happens. Then, he walks into a tavern and spots a barbarian (OH NOES!). So, you imply tension, and then the chapter ends. As countless people have harped on in this forum (especially to me), even within a chapter there is generally conflict and some sort of resolution, even if it's not *the* resolution. You seem to build up a run-of-the-mill adventure of killing dragons (ironic since he just poked fun about that), but the dragon herself seems to be rather... lackluster. It burninates the countryside, but doesn't do anything else? I suppose there could be (and likely are, since you defend it) reasons for her behavior, but it just strikes me as odd, and with no background of any sort to work from, it's a little annoying to see him acknowledge the oddity and then just dismiss it.
As for slipping the name in... well, some people refer to themselves in the third person, especially when talking to themselves. "Well gee, Bob, guess you really did it this time." Or somesuch. I think this is a more trivial matter, though; names don't invoke images. Stuff happening invokes images.
In the end, I really don't know anything about the story after this chapter; the character has apparently been wandering around with nothing happening for several weeks, but he's usually on assignment... from someone. No idea about his organization structure, either. Is he freelance, or hired form a protector guild? He's in the countryside (no clue where, except that it's near Kiljer Port). He's apparently had his share of stupid clients and bad luck.
Now, I don't mean this to be condemning. I'm just telling it like it is, for right now. Perhaps later chapters would give me a better idea of what you're actually trying to accomplish. First chapters kinda suck like that. So, keep writing, and I'll keep reading (eventually).
P.S. This Josh *is* the wizard. Playing healers and tanks just means people depend on you. The only thing you can depend on a wizard for is blowing stuff up and probably dying to arrows (or friendly fire). Now I put on my robe and my hat...