Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: atlas689 on May 19, 2010, 07:21:27 PM
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Did anyone else get the feeling that when the original Preservation person fell out of the sky (when Preservation seemingly died) that the description of the person was meant to describe Mr. Sanderson? I believe it describes his hair (same color), eyes (same color), and nose (same nose). I could be wrong, but that is what I immediately thought of when reading that portion of the book. I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Sanderson, but was a tad bit star struck and forgot to ask him if this was so. :)
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Hah, you may have found something, there. I can't get to my copy of HoA now, but if somebody could quote the passage, then we might be able to substantiate this.
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By the time Elend saw the "mist spirit," Preservation must have been barely coherent. I wonder what Elend would have done, had he known that he was in the presence of a dying god—that on that night, he had been the last witness of Preservation's passing. If Elend had waited just a few more minutes on that ashen field, he would have seen a body—short of stature, black hair, prominent nose—fall from the mists and slump dead into the ash.
Doesn't really sound like Brandon at all to me. But now we have to start scanning all of Brandon's other books for someone with black hair and a prominent nose!
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I seriously doubt it. I think that Brandon identifies more with Hoid to be honest.
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Hah, you may have found something, there. I can't get to my copy of HoA now, but if somebody could quote the passage, then we might be able to substantiate this.
Well if it isn't Brandon, then my immediate question is: why describe this person at all, let alone focus the narrative on his physical features. Granted we know that he was Leras/Preservation, but who was he REALLY?
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Read and find out? ;D
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I really doubt this is the case, if only because that would be a Mary Sue, and that's not how he rolls.
For evidence I supply this episode of Writing Excuses (http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/09/13/writing-excuses-season-3-episode-16-the-anti-mary-sue-episode/).
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Ah, but in order to be a Mary Sue, the character must essentially be an avatar for the author to interfere in the lives of the characters. Usually by being stronger/better than they are, or solving all their problems. If Preservation were a Deus Ex Machina in the story, than yeah, that would be a Mary Sue. What we have here however is a character who is so weak he can hardly think straight and even manifesting physically requires great exertion on his part. Meant to resemble Brandon? I don't know, does he have a prominent nose? Mary Sue: Most certainly not. I got a little lost. My point is, Leras might be intentionally made to resemble Brandon (I don't think so though) but he is not a Mary Sue. ...*Realizes that was kinda off-topic, glances around furtively and runs before anyone sees.*
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Brandon has brown hair, is around 6'3", and I wouldn't say his nose is prominent.
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I think the definition of Mary-Sue that they used on Writing Excuses doesn't really fit the concept as I've observed it. I think they thought it meant putting too much of yourself into a character, whereas a Mary-Sue might not be like the author at all, but is simply a too perfect character. There are further nuances to it, but I'm off-topic as is. >.>
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Fireborn, that would be an alteration of the term. Pretty sure it comes from Star Trek fanfiction where a writer named Mary Sue something put a character named Mary Sue something into the fic who Kirk fell in love with and who solved everyone's problems. A too-perfect character who bears no resemblance to the author is just called bad writing/poor characterization.
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Fireborn, that would be an alteration of the term. Pretty sure it comes from Star Trek fanfiction where a writer named Mary Sue something put a character named Mary Sue something into the fic who Kirk fell in love with and who solved everyone's problems. A too-perfect character who bears no resemblance to the author is just called bad writing/poor characterization.
You're mostly correct as to the origin of the term, but the fanfic you're referring to was actually a parody of the phenomenon. And isn't bad writing what a Mary Sue is anyway? While a Mary-Sue is often a vehicle for self-insertion, that's not all it is. Look it up at tvtropes.org to see what I mean.
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LOL. Peter is the wrong person to argue with about these types of things. He is after all a professional editor.
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Fireborn, the fanfic I'm talking about was written in the early 1970s. It it the origin of the term. Wikipedia does back you up about it coming from a parody of the form, but it's also clear on the self-insertion/wish-fulfillment nature.
I reject a broadening of the term to refer to characters who don't have an element of self-insertion/wish-fulfillment. The name of the term is just too specific to apply otherwise.
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Perhaps I didn't state myself clearly. I'm not saying that the self insertion and wish fulfillment aren't part of it, I'm saying there's more to it than that by itself. And wish fulfillment/self insertion can exist without being a Mary Sue.
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If I may, what the term may or may not have started out as, it has changed. What I see it being used as now (and this is being seen from the ffs I read on ff.net... Yes, I'm one of those people) is both. Mary Sue in general seemed to be applied to characters who are too perfect (see: Bella in Breaking Dawn. She has perfect control over her vampire lust, everyone loves her. It's also those characters who always know what to say to solve a problem.) Self-insertion is now the term used (at least in the ff community) for when an author inserts themselves. If it's not a direct insert it's a self-inserted Mary Sue (ie -- I write myself in as Sarah's best friend in a Laby fanfic, but my name is Mi'chelle in the fic. It's Jan, but I look like I look, and sound like I sound, act like I do, and come from my same background.)
So while it may have started out as the ST character (which, by the way Peter was cool to know) I think it has grown into something more.
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I get what you're saying FGR. And the concept of the Mary Sue existed long before it was given a name, just sayin'.
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fRR, I've also been reading fanfic for years, and I maintain that usage is wrong and confusing. Insertion/wish-fulfillment is the soul of a Mary Sue.
Sometimes a character may be misinterpreted as a Mary Sue by a reader when he/she is perceived as too perfect, but when that character is nothing like the author and does not reflect the author's actual views/wishes, then that character is not a Mary Sue.
As far as I know, though, Bella is a genuine Mary Sue who reflects Stepehnie's ideal self and how she would want to react in that situation. That's the impression I've gotten, though it may be wrong.
I read a series once by Leo Frankowski, a Polish-American bachelor engineer, about a Polish-American bachelor engineer who goes back in time to 1200s Poland and jumpstarts the technology while getting tons of women to fall in love with him. The Mary Sue was strong in those books.
Fanfic in its modern form began with Star Trek, so the fanfic Mary Sue did not originate long before the term came about. However, it's true that authors used self avatars from time to time for centuries beforehand. But their usage was often more skilled due to editors not publishing crap.
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I already said that the wish fulfillment IS part of it, but there is more to it than that. I really don't know how to state it clearer than that.
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I already said I disagree with you. I don't know how to make it clearer than that.
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I've heard people compare a character that's all about indulgent wish-fulfillment but not a self-insert to a Mary Sue, but I've never heard anyone outright call them a Mary Sue. Perhaps this type of comparison has muddied the waters a little, but to be a proper Mary Sue, a character does need to be a self-insertion by the author to some degree.
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Even if the character looks nothing like you, but fulfills all your indulgent wish-fulfillment fantasies, then that's still basically an insert. Changing the name and physical description, or giving the character a quirk or two that you don't have, doesn't solve an author's Mary Sue problem.
Of course I'm not saying that characters need to be nothing like their author. There will often be a part of a character that represents something about the author—authors should write what they know, after all.
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Even if the character looks nothing like you, but fulfills all your indulgent wish-fulfillment fantasies, then that's still basically an insert. Changing the name and physical description, or giving the character a quirk or two that you don't have, doesn't solve an author's Mary Sue problem.
Of course I'm not saying that characters need to be nothing like their author. There will often be a part of a character that represents something about the author—authors should write what they know, after all.
Right. Where it gets confusing is when the character is indulgently filling someone else's fantasies. :)
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I'm simply saying that a Mary Sue has a tendency to reflect certain types of wish fulfillment that are not common to normal characters. A Mary Sue tends to have so many powers and skills that half of them won't even show up in the story and are simply there to fluff up the character, compared to normal character who has a few particular skills or powers. While the inclusion of superhuman powers is wish fulfillment by itself, it's of the type and level that makes an interesting character. Whereas a Mary Sue has these traits but on such an enormous scale as to destroy the credibility and conflict of the character, such that we don't want to read about it. Wish fulfillment doesn't create a Mary Sue, it is an excess of such that makes it fit under such a brand.